Hi All.
I've been contemplating a Master Summoner build (mostly for my own enjoyment, and in the hopes of finding a future campaign for him), and I was hoping for a bit of input on his eidolon. At the moment, I'm not interested in using it as a mount; I much prefer the idea of the eidolon being a companion, in some ways mirroring the PC. I know there's been a lot of talk about using UMD for the eidolon, which I like the idea of, but I'm unsure as to what wands would be best for use in combat - any suggestions in that regard would be helpful. Beyond that, what else does the eidolon do? Take a ranged weapon proficiency and fire its crossbow/longbow every other turn? I know going the skill focus/stealth route is an option, but I'm interested in finding ways to make the eidolon more function within the context of combat.
Any input would be appreciated.
The main purpose of the Eidolon is to be a melee bruiser. Evolutions give you some recondary options but mainly it's there to go out and swat at things. I would definitely NOT allow the Eidolon to be a wand bearer and it's not a good use for it anyway.
I disagree entirely.
1) Master summoner edilions are weak physically. They need to stay out of melee. Assuming one builds it properly using an edilion as a secondary ranged attack is a good idea. Don't look for high damage, but every bit helps.
2) There is nothing that says edilions cant use UMD. You just have to get the skill high enough. There is a 1 point evolution that will allow you to get a +8 to the skill which will help alot. This same principle holds true for many wizard familiars.
3) Naturally it's all DM discression, but at that point it's houserules.
Just to make sure we're clear, LazarX (and anyone else), I'm referring to a build using the master summoner archetype from ultimate magic. Since the eidolon's level for this archetype is 1/2 class level, melee-oriented eidolons are going to see a steep drop off in usefulness at a pretty early stage in the game. Thus the search for alternative roles.
It seems that the master summoner's purpose is to flood the battlefield with Summon Monster spells in particular the SLA ability.
I've never allowed wizard familliars to be used as wand carriers and I have a problem with pets using wands as a rule. That being said the Eidolon weakened as it is still has a role to play as a handy flanker.
If that's your house rule so be it, but the guy isn't asking about your house rules. Personally, I see no problem with it either RAI or RAW.
Of course the familiar/edilion will have to have sufficient UMD skill. Which isn't a guarantee of successfully using a wand.
Just wanted to give this a minibump - hopefully I'm not being too impatient.
I would still love some input on viable 1-level wands to use at low-levels.
Just wanted to give this a minibump - hopefully I'm not being too impatient.
I would still love some input on viable 1-level wands to use at low-levels.
Viable is relative, but it depends on what you are trying to do. Here are a few ideas.
#1 best level one wand = CURE Light Wounds. especially if someone\something else is using it for you.
magic missle - Only one missle, but it's guaranteed damage, it's a force effect (hurts incorporeal) and enemy being in melee isn't relevant (cover\to hit\whatever)
True Strike - It could cast true strike on you so you can actually hit something at first level
Burning hands - DM's love swarms at low level and without an aoe you're basically screwed'
Ant Haul - Utitility, but doesn't suck for carrying stuff out of dungeons and what not
Grease - Disarm, trip, and other fun uses at range. I once saved the party at first level with grease.
Endure elements - Utility and varies in usefulness depending on setting
Enlarge person - enlarge the melee fighters for added dmg
Reduce person - reduce ranged fighters for a dex and ac bonus
Entangle - Crowd Control
Expedious Retreat - added mobility or simply RUN AWAY!!
Feather fall - don't die when falling off a cliff
Mage armor and/or shield - Increased AC
Magic Stone - Undead bane ranged weapon
Mount - RUN AWAY
Obscuring mist - Hide/ RUN AWAY
Ray of enfeeble - weaken enemy so melee can trounce them
rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser - heal edition
Vanish - RUN AWAY
You can use your eidolon for crafting magical items. Just give him Basic Magic to have a caster level, then Spellcraft Skilled and Ability Score Increase (Int) for increased spellcraft total. If you are playing a long-term campaign, you can consider also to give him the Craft Construct feat, then the Large Evolution for being able to use the bigger/est Construct Armor (UM 111?) and becoming a decent tank (at least superior to your Lesser Eidolon), especially if you can afford to travel with a Huge Lesser Eidolon wearin a Mithral/Adamantine Golem Construct Armor...
You can use your eidolon for crafting magical items. Just give him Basic Magic to have a caster level, then Spellcraft Skilled and Ability Score Increase (Int) for increased spellcraft total. If you are playing a long-term campaign, you can consider also to give him the Craft Construct feat, then the Large Evolution for being able to use the bigger/est Construct Armor (UM 111?) and becoming a decent tank (at least superior to your Lesser Eidolon), especially if you can afford to travel with a Huge Lesser Eidolon wearin a Mithral/Adamantine Golem Construct Armor...
incorrect. Basic magic (including the rogue version) gives a spell like ability. Having SLA's does not give you a caster level. This has been FAQ'd to death so you can find it on a number of other threads.
incorrect. Basic magic (including the rogue version) gives a spell like ability. Having SLA's does not give you a caster level. This has been FAQ'd to death so you can find it on a number of other threads.
Ouch! But you can still give him the Master Craftman feat and then Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Woundrous Item, freeing the summoner of these 2 feats...
incorrect. Basic magic (including the rogue version) gives a spell like ability. Having SLA's does not give you a caster level. This has been FAQ'd to death so you can find it on a number of other threads.Ouch! But you can still give him the Master Craftman feat and then Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Woundrous Item, freeing the summoner of these 2 feats...
True and with the 1 point evolution that adds +8 to a skill (and can be changed when you level) that's not a bad idea.
True and with the 1 point evolution that adds +8 to a skill (and can be changed when you level) that's not a bad idea.incorrect. Basic magic (including the rogue version) gives a spell like ability. Having SLA's does not give you a caster level. This has been FAQ'd to death so you can find it on a number of other threads.Ouch! But you can still give him the Master Craftman feat and then Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Woundrous Item, freeing the summoner of these 2 feats...
Or just transmogrified.
If you're going to go this route, I'd fore go any natural attacks except for the ones that come with the base form.
Then you can go with any base form, add limbs(arms) if needed, and make it a ranged attacker. Go with a small eidelon (makes it easier for it to sneak around, gives it slightly better ac, and better dex for ranged attacks). Yes you lose an average of 1 pt on ranged attacks, but who cares? You can go with 3 sets of arms and multiweapon fighting at higher levels to let it fire 3 bows at once, and extra ground movement to keep at a distance. Then give it 4-5 skill bonuses.
This works really well if you go with the half-elf (I think it's half-elf) summoner, which can give evolution points for favored class. You're going to be very low on them due to the master summoner's weakened eidelon, but the favored class ability isn't affected by that, so it's proportionally stronger for a master summoner.
Thanks for that, TCG.
mdt, I agree that I wouldn't use evolution points for additional natural attacks. The idea of multiple bows is a strong one. I'm not sure about going small, since the smaller dice plus the strength penalty adds up to my mind if I'm thinking in terms of damage (although I haven't crunched the numbers). Although I really do like the idea of going gnome, you make a good point about the half-elf.
Thanks for that, TCG.
mdt, I agree that I wouldn't use evolution points for additional natural attacks. The idea of multiple bows is a strong one. I'm not sure about going small, since the smaller dice plus the strength penalty adds up to my mind if I'm thinking in terms of damage (although I haven't crunched the numbers). Although I really do like the idea of going gnome, you make a good point about the half-elf.
If you're not going to ride it then half elf with a small edoilon is the way to go (for the evolution points). I wouldn't worry too much about actual dice damage size. They're never going to be able to keep up with the other party memeber. Just remember that the Edoilion's damage is extra and not a primary focus. He has to hit for him to actually do any damage. Go for accuracy and worry about damage as you can afford to.
Once you hit 14 you can also have your eidolon become some sort of punching bag:
10 EP + 3 from Halfelf summoner favored class = 13
large, improved to huge -> 10 EP
trip -> 2 EP
push -> EP
You end up with a
STR 16 (for biped) + 16 size + 3 summoner class = 35
DEX 12 - 4 size + 3 summoner class = 11
CON 13 base + 1 ability score increase + 8 size = 22
HP 33(6d10) + 36 = 69
Claw x2, To Hit +16, 1d8 + 12
CMB for trip and push: +20
You can drop either trip or push, give him weapon training and then a reach weapon, then feats to improve your trip ability or for more HP to benefit more from Life Bond. I really like the Combat Patrol feat: if you can afford it for your eidolon, you will never be melee hitted (try to have at least a +2 DEX modifier, you as a master summoner probably will have a Cat Grace Mass), because your eidolon will be using his great reach to push or trip your enemies and at least, failing them, moving him (as part of the AoOs of Combat Patrol) between you and your attacking enemy...
I've just missed the part "A master summoner’s class level is halved (minimum 1) for the purposes of determining his eidolon’s abilities, Hit Dice, evolution pool, and so on.", so you are not qualified by level 14th to have the Large Evolution. Just give him a couple of ability score increase (CON) for having extra HP, this with Life Bond means more life for you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOnqjkJTMaA
This is what thread necromancy sounds like
"I've just missed the part "A master summoner’s class level is halved (minimum 1) for the purposes of determining his eidolon’s abilities, Hit Dice, evolution pool, and so on.", so you are not qualified by level 14th to have the Large Evolution. Just give him a couple of ability score increase (CON) for having extra HP, this with Life Bond means more life for you..." - 45ur4
My DM agrees with me that your evolutions themselves become available at the regular pace because of the specific language involved. All quotes below are from the SRD.
1) "A master summoner’s class level is halved (minimum 1) for the purposes of determining his eidolon’s abilities, Hit Dice, evolution pool, and so on. The eidolon otherwise functions as normal."
All those things are the things listed on the table given for class level unlocks. Note that the table lists when EVERYTHING becomes available for the eidolon. Not there? The evolutions themselves. More importantly is the last sentence. "The eidolon otherwise functions as normal." I think that is specifically there in regards to the way evolutions unlock.
2) "Some evolutions require that the eidolon have a specific base form or the summoner be of a specific level before they can be chosen." "The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution."
"The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner’s class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner."
Class Level dictates the EVO pool, but everything else in regards to evolutions are determined by the summoner itself. Meaning, if I want to give my eidolon flight at level 5 as a Master Summoner...
Just posted that video for fun, no hard feelings, :) Out of curiosity though for anyone else reading the post, is this right? I think it is but I'm not sure
This is what it sounds like when someone says "thread necromancy".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S8ynIDYyG4