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I'm having difficulty finding this anywhere on the forum.
I'm going to try a Qinggong Monk/Ninja/Fighter Hybrid, looking to get some high-fantasy kung-fu power of the demi-elemental Suli. My only hiccup thus far, other than the aggravation of NOT getting to pick abilities when you would normally get to pick the abilities with the Qinggong Archetype, is whether or not Slow Fall counts as only ONE instance, or as multiple instances?
If I give up slow fall for Barkskin, do I get slow fall 20' at level 6? Or is Barkskin worth Slow Fall for the remainder of my career?
Good question -- I believe that it is simply putting off slow fall until sixth level as per the archetype rules on page 9 of the APG and 14 of Ultimate Magic.
Good question -- I believe that it is simply putting off slow fall until sixth level as per the archetype rules on page 9 of the APG and 14 of Ultimate Magic.
I don't know if that was the intention, but it's certainly the way it reads. Sadly, you still can't exchange multiple instances of slow fall. :)
My interpretation was you were giving up every instance of slow fall the first time you took something else in its place, perhaps it would be best to look at other Archetypes that replace recurring abilities similar to Slow Fall. See how those are handled, seems to be the best option.
The fighter's weapon and armor training abilities are a prime example, written in a similar fashion to slow fall.
One interpretation makes me squeeful, one interpretation makes me boohoo. Which is it though... which... is... it... O.o
*ahem*
Slaunyeh, why do you say you can't exchange multiple instances of it?
Slaunyeh, why do you say you can't exchange multiple instances of it?
Because Qinggong Monk specifically only lets you replace Slow Fall at level 4.
PS. Yay for the PRD being updated with Ultimate Magic stuff. Wheee. :)
My interpretation was you were giving up every instance of slow fall the first time you took something else in its place, perhaps it would be best to look at other Archetypes that replace recurring abilities similar to Slow Fall. See how those are handled, seems to be the best option.The fighter's weapon and armor training abilities are a prime example, written in a similar fashion to slow fall.
You'll notice, though, that once you replace weapon or armor training, every higher level is also replaced. So there's no deriving from that whether there's a delay or you just lose it altogether. Druid wild shape for druids with totem animals might be a better source, but there it explicitly says they get it delayed.
In the general case, you only get the "Slow fall" ability once, at 4th level, and it specifically says "The monk's ability to slow his fall ... improves with his monk level". Thus if you don't have slow fall (because you gave it up) it can't improve. The table just says when it improves, and what it improves to, but if you don't have it at all you don't have it at all. See the Monk of the Sacred Mountain's Bastion Stance, too.
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I think the Qinngong Monk to be changed around some then. At 4th level you give up Slow Fall for a 4th level power. At 5th level you give up High Jump for.. another 4th level power I guess. What are you giving up at 6th level when you get 6th level powers?
Maybe I can say that differently...
Why weren't the levels of the Powers made the same as the level at which you gave them up? If you aren't meant to give up Slow Fall at every instance, that way would make more sense.
The powers were assigned at a rate of 1 set every 2 levels starting after 4th. The levels of the powers were judged accordingly. I assume you pick one closest to the level power you're giving up you give up a level 17 ability you can choose 16 or lesser, etc.
Actually the power sets come out at the exact same levels as each part of slow fall.
That's true. If I give up wholeness of body, it doesn't sit well with me that I can't have *WHOLENESS OF BODY*. Why the stagger?
That's true. If I give up wholeness of body, it doesn't sit well with me that I can't have *WHOLENESS OF BODY*. Why the stagger?
That's the 'price' you pay for flexibility. Having access to a long list of powers, including wholeness of body, is better than only having access to wholeness of body. It makes sense that the powers a Qinggong Monk has access to are slightly less than the power they give up.
If you want wholeness of body at that level, don't give it up. :p
You'll notice, though, that once you replace weapon or armor training, every higher level is also replaced.
By different abilities. One ability replaces armor training 1, another might replace armor training 2, etc. Which suggests that armor training isn't one class feature, but several that can be exchanged individually. I'm not sure why Slow Fall would be read differently (except, of course, that Qinggong Monk only replace it at level 4)
But personally I don't really like that. Nothing in armor training suggest it's not all one class feature. Replacing bits and pieces of it feels off, and I suspect it was only done to make the fighter archetypes easier to read.
Actually several archetypes only lose part of armor training, or part of sneak attack or simply one dice off of bomb damage.
So we can easily see that increasing class features are considered modular and the rules specifically state what to do in these cases (again page 9 APG and page 14 UM): At the next instance you would gain an increase you instead gain the 'base'.
So at level 6 for example you would gain base slow fall. At which point you can give it up for something else instead. At seventh level you could give up wholeness of body for another 6th level power intending to gain it back at 8th level (again with base slow fall being given up).
Actually several archetypes only lose part of armor training, or part of sneak attack or simply one dice off of bomb damage.
So we can easily see that increasing class features are considered modular and the rules specifically state what to do in these cases (again page 9 APG and page 14 UM): At the next instance you would gain an increase you instead gain the 'base'.
So at level 6 for example you would gain base slow fall. At which point you can give it up for something else instead. At seventh level you could give up wholeness of body for another 6th level power intending to gain it back at 8th level (again with base slow fall being given up).
I hope this is the official interpretation.
So at level 6 for example you would gain base slow fall. At which point you can give it up for something else instead. At seventh level you could give up wholeness of body for another 6th level power intending to gain it back at 8th level (again with base slow fall being given up).
That would be cool but I don't think you can do that, because
A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th) [etc]
, it is stated Level 4th, so you cannot give up -if we agree that you can still have reduced progression of the slow fall ability- Slow Fall (6th) or Slow Fall (8th), neither the subsequent ones.
My first interpretation was you were giving up every instance of slow fall, but re-reading it I also noticed that Slow Fall is the only monk class ability that you can give up and never get as a KI Power (very other one is obtained generally 1-2 levels after normal progressions). So maybe, it is really intended to leave the monk with a reduced slow fall capability, up to 90 feet by level 20.
You could be right because of Cloud Step.
Has anyone seen any rulings from staff on this one way or another?
Hmm, I'm working on a Qinggong monk right now, and this particular problem has me going back and forth in a debate with my gm (a pleasent debate, no tempers :D) and I totally see it as Qinggong monk being able to replace each instance of slow fall (due to the way the available ki powers progress 4th->6th->8th.. with slowfall at 4th->6th->8th.., it just makes sense)
He does bring up a good point, that normally an archtype ability replaces a class ability of equal power and slowfall 10ft. =/= quivering palm or any of the higher tier abilities.
I get that this is an old topic but I'd love for it to be clarified.
The problem Is, You get slow fall so often that you really could play a Guigong monk and never have to give up any other power. I really think this was intended to have them Loose slowfall at lvl 4.
The Only thing in favour of it is it would solve the issue of i think.. te lvl 8? powers which do not have any corisponding powers to trade for until the monk gets lvl 11.
I would really like an answer to this question.
Being able to replace each instance of Slow Fall would eliminate the silly level mismatches. Like, how you have "level 8" ki powers that you cannot trade anything out for until 11th level.
:D
I just checked Hero Lab, which is as close to rules validation as you can sometimes get.
You get Ki Powers at levels-
4
5
7
11
12
13
15
17
18
19
20
Swapping out Slow Fall removes every instance of the ability. If you add it in later (say at level 7) it returns with progression as if you took it at level 4.
I would much rather have a dev ruling then rely on Herolab...no offense to Herolab.
Slow fall is ONE ability.
Slow fall is ONE ability.
Ah.
Case clursed then.
Now if we could just get the power tiers to match up with the levels you swap out abilities for them
That would indeed be wery nice.
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Sorry for necro, but I really don't think a satisfying conclusion was reached here, and I have a player who's looking at the qinggong monk and I'd like to have an answer for him. Personally, I'm intuitively inclined to think that - in the absence of a clearer, official ruling - being able to swap out every individual instance of slow fall separately just smacks of munchkin cheese. But then, swapping out the whole thing for just a single ability makes it one of the poorer trade-offs when compared to other swappable abilities like timeless body and tongue of the sun and moon. But then, there are several other very solid abilities that are swappable which are much more powerful than even slow fall in its entirety, so... that kinda goes nowhere. But the thing that really gives me a hang up is the fact that 8th-level and 10th-level are separate tiers, even though without the ability to swap out individual instances of slow fall, there is absolutely nothing to functionally distinguish between those two tiers. They might as well be bundled together into a single tier since the only thing that differentiates tiers is what your monk level has to be before you can select abilities from that list, and after 7th level you have to wait until 11th level before you can gain a new ability. So there is no point at which you could take an 8th-level ability when you weren't able to take a 10th-level one. Unless you can swap out individual instances of slow fall.