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Ok I may be being thick here but I just need some clarification on how these two abilities work. Specifically how they work when used in concert with each other.
First can you use them together? (i.e. get a spell cast through your weapon and then another attack with your weapon after that)
Second, if you can use them together what happens to the charge on your weapon if you miss with your first strike? Do you then effectively get a second strike with the spell still in the blade? Effectively two bites of the cherry?
Without looking, let me see if I can help off the top of my head.
Spell combat lets you take a full round action, make a full attack, and also cast a spell. You get a -2 on all attack rolls for that round. This dynamic is similar to two-weapon fighting with a light weapon in the off-hand, except your off-hand is casting a spell. You can still provoke attacks of opportunity with this spell as normal, and any damage taken as such might interrupt it. It's therefore recommended you cast defensively.
Spellstrike lets you 1)make a free melee attack as part of casting a touch spell in order to deliver it 2)do regular melee damage in additon to any other effects that spell has and 3)use the critical range of the weapon you're delivering the touch spell with to determine if it crits (if the spell is able to).
Yes, the abilities are designed to be used together, should you wish to cast a damaging or otherwise detrimental spell against someone you're fighting in melee. You get an extra attack if you cast a touch attack such as shocking grasp through Spellstrike. You don't have to cast offensive spells though, you can make a full attack and cast a buff for example, like Fire Shield or Haste.
You do hold the charge if you miss with spellstrike, but you don't get another free attack as that free attack is only when you cast the spell. Standard rules apply for holding a charge, like it dissipates if you cast another spell, but obviously you can hold that weapon in hand without discharging it. I'm not 100% on the holding a charge rules as this is all sort of from memory and reading it like maybe twice.
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I really hope the boards didn't just eat my post. It was rather long and in-depth and I'm not typing it again.
edit: they sure did. Is there no one who can fix these goddamn cannibal message boards?!
Ok I may be being thick here but I just need some clarification on how these two abilities work. Specifically how they work when used in concert with each other.
First can you use them together? (i.e. get a spell cast through your weapon and then another attack with your weapon after that)
Second, if you can use them together what happens to the charge on your weapon if you miss with your first strike? Do you then effectively get a second strike with the spell still in the blade? Effectively two bites of the cherry?
1) Yes. You can use them together. And even when you run out of touch attacks, you can spam arcane mark for a 'free' second attack (the price being the -2 to hit, and the chance to provoke attacks of opportunity).
2) I'm a bit uncertain on this to be honest. Spellstrike doesn't mention letting you deliver charges through your weapon, it only specifically lets you deliver the initial touch attack through your weapon. This is both relevant for spells with multiple touches (like chill touch) or just if you miss on your first attack. I don't know if this has been clarified anywhere, but by strict RAW I don't think you can use your weapon for these.
Spell combat is free two-weapon fighting, but a spell in your off-hand. So you need to have a one-handed weapon in one hand, and you have to full-attack to get this off. You attack with each (if the spell requires a roll) at a -2 penalty. You may attack with your weapon or cast your spell first, at your discretion.
Spellstrike is when you cast a spell with the range of touch, you get a free attack to deliver it. Like other touch spells, if it doesn't go off, you hold the charge for another attempt.
This means you can smack someone in the face with your sword, then cast a touch spell, and deliver it via spellstrike for another sword-smack, and the chance to crit your spell. The reason you might not always do this is that you have a lower chance to hit with a sword versus normal AC than with your fingertips versus touch AC. So that's the offset there.
What you suggested was spellstrike - attack, in that order. Careful with that; you're provoking an AoO with that spell, or you need to cast defensively (hard in early levels, easy pass at higher ones). So yes, two bites of the bite-sized cherry to deliver that spell.
TLDR: TWF with spells, and maybe crits for your touch spells.
2) I'm a bit uncertain on this to be honest. Spellstrike doesn't mention letting you deliver charges through your weapon, it only specifically lets you deliver the initial touch attack through your weapon. This is both relevant for spells with multiple touches (like chill touch) or just if you miss on your first attack. I don't know if this has been clarified anywhere, but by strict RAW I don't think you can use your weapon for these.
I think because spellstrike delivers the spell through your attack, it counts as the delivery. If the delivery fails, as with normal touch spells, you can attempt again.
I think because spellstrike delivers the spell through your attack, it counts as the delivery. If the delivery fails, as with normal touch spells, you can attempt again.
This would be my interpretation as well. But by a strict reading of spellstrike, it only triggers when you cast a spell. This is fine if you're casting shocking grasp every turn, but gets weirder if you're casting a spell like chill touch.
The exact wording is:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
I guess "can deliver the spell" could refer to any future attempt to deliver the spell he just cast. I think I like that reading better. :) Still, I can see it being read as spellstrike only let you replace the initial free touch attack with a weapon attack.
I think the old daggerspell mage had a similar ability that was worded clearer.
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Thanks guys. It's come up because one of my players has just started playing a Magus.
So just to clarify combining Spellstrike and Spell Combat my player can do the following:
1) Cast touch spell defensively (say Shocking Grasp)
2) Attack with Spellstrike with his sword
3) Attack normally with his second attack.
4) The Shocking Grasp gets discharged on the first successful hit.
Amarite?
So just to clarify combining Spellstrike and Spell Combat my player can do the following:1) Cast touch spell defensively (say Shocking Grasp)
2) Attack with Spellstrike with his sword
3) Attack normally with his second attack.
4) The Shocking Grasp gets discharged on the first successful hit.Amarite?
Yes, assuming that in 3) your 'second' attack means his normal iterative attacks with his weapon. (The attack in part 2 is the 'free' attack granted by casting a touch spell)
Just be sure he declares what he's doing at the beginning of his actions. If he's using Spell Combat (to both cast a spell and take full iterative attacks) he needs the -2 penalty.
He could also take a 5-foot step between steps 1 and 2, which might remove the need to cast defensively.
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But by a strict reading of spellstrike, it only triggers when you cast a spell.
Nope, read just the first sentence again:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
The logic train as follows:
Did the 2nd-level magus cast a spell with a range of 'touch' from the magus spell list?
If yes, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
If the magus has a held charge, he can still deliver the spell through a weapon, because he still cast the spell, it still had range touch, and it was still from the magus spell list.
The second sentence of Spellstrike is just to clarify that the free attack that everyone gets as part of casting a touch spell can also be delivered through the weapon.
Can the Magus channel his touch through a weapon in subsequent turns without using spellstrike? If he has Chill Touch up and running, will the standard attack(s) channel it, or only the extra attack from spellstrike that gives the -2 to everything?
No.
Spellstrike is delivering a touch spell through a weapon.
Spell Combat is taking a full-attack action and casting a spell with your off-hand.
Any time a magus (of 2nd level or higher) has a held charge from a touch spell (that he cast, that is on the magus spell list) he can deliver that spell through his weapon using Spellstrike.
I think you're asking about using Spell Combat while holding a charge. Yes, you can do that, but remember, as soon as you cast -any- spell, you lose the held charge.
Round 1:
A) Magus declares Spell Combat.
B) Magus defensively casts Chill Touch.
C) Magus makes his 'free' attack granted from casting Chill Touch, and delivers it with his weapon via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty from Spell Combat) - if it hits, the target takes weapon damage, and is zapped.
D) Magus makes a full attack with his weapon (at -2 penalty from Spell Combat) - Each hit deals weapon damage and zaps another 'charge' from Chill Touch
Round 2:
A) Magus declares Spell Combat.
B) Magus makes a full attack with his weapon (at -2 penalty from Spell Combat) - Each hit deals damage and a zap, assuming there are 'charges' left on Chill Touch
C) Magus defensively casts Shocking Grasp
D) The remaining charges from Chill Touch dissipate
E) Magus makes his 'free' attack granted from Shocking Grasp, delivering it with his weapon via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty from Spell Combat)
An example without using Spell Combat at all:
Round 1:
A) Magus casts Chill Touch
B) Magus moves up to his speed, ending adjacent to a goblin
C) Magus makes his 'free' attack granted by Chill Touch, delivering it through his weapon via Spellstrike. Damage + Zap
Round 2:
A) Magus makes a standard action attack, delivering another Chill through his weapon via Spellstrike. Damage + Zap
B) Goblin dies
C) Magus moves up to his speed to go do something else. Still holding any remaining 'charges' from Chill Touch.
At no point in this second example does he take the -2 penalty from Spell Combat, because he is not using Spell Combat, just casting spells and using Spellstrike.
Incidentally, this exact same scenario can be done by a Wizard, the only difference is instead of delivering the spell with a sword, the wizard delivers it with his hand. The wizard only needs to hit Touch AC instead of Full AC, and the wizard does not get the weapon damage in addition to the spell effects.
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That topic could not come in a better time!
I'm building my first magus as a NPC so i might take the opportunity to double check what i understand of it.
I'll keep it simple so i will forget any modifers:
Magus level 10
BaB: +7/+2
So my full round action would look like this
+5/--/spell (-2 to hit if you have to hit)
haste
+5/+5/--/spell (-2 to hit if you have to hit)
As i look at Grick last (pretty meaty) post i could do something like this?
a) declare a full round action
b) cast shocking grasp
c) move a 5' step
d) first weapon hit @ +5
e) second weapon hit @ +0
f) doing my free shocking grasp attack @ +3
I'm i missing something?
a) declare a full round action
b) cast shocking grasp
c) move a 5' step
d) first weapon hit @ +5
e) second weapon hit @ +0
f) doing my free shocking grasp attack @ +3I'm i missing something?
Your free attack comes before the iteratives, because you cast the spell first.
a) b) c) are fine, then f) free shocking grasp attack at +5.
then d) and e)
First one to land discharges the shocking grasp. If they all miss, you hold the charge until later.
The -2 penalty from Spell Combat applies to your regular hits (at +5 instead of +7) and also to your free attack, which should also be +5 instead of +7. Not sure where the +3 came from.
Nope, read just the first sentence again:
Now read the rest of the sentence that I quoted:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
Emphasis mine.