Ok, it says, as fluff, that it is a cure for aging, and that you no longer take penalties to your physical attributes.
Seems to me that it stops physical aging, thus eliminating death from old age. However, as it says nothing about maximum lifespan, we therefore have to assume that it does nothing to maximum lifespan.
Is this written as intended, or something that got left out unintentionally?
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If you are no longer aging, then your maximum age is irrelevant.
What makes you assume that a creature will naturally die if it no longer suffers from most disease, illness, and aging? I figure like anything else the best thing a creature does IS live.
Normally effects that stop aging but still cause you to die once you reach your maximum age specifically state it.
See the Core Monk's Capstone Ability, and then compare it to the Monk of the Four Wind's Replacement.
Quote: immortal (ɪˈmɔːt ə l)
— adj
1. not subject to death or decay; having perpetual life
2. having everlasting fame; remembered throughout time
3. everlasting; perpetual; constant
4. of or relating to immortal beings or concepts
That being said, agelessness isn't really "broken", because most campaigns don't progress so far in time as for it to matter.
This power sort of begs the question why more wizards don't pursue this over lichdom, but I guess the rebuild via phylactery and undead powers hold their own appeal for the evil types.
I'm pretty sure the steps involved in becoming a lich require 2-3 quests starting at 10th level, at most. The steps to become a 20th level wizard on the other hand? Longer, harder, and less convenient.
'Rixx wrote: That being said, agelessness isn't really "broken", because most campaigns don't progress so far in time as for it to matter. I feel that either all level twenty characters should all ideally have a means of "immortality" of some sort, or that it should be a specific and special class ability.
Right now it's a specific class ability that wizards can just sorta grab because why not, which is basically the worst of both worlds.
ProfessorCirno wrote: 'Rixx wrote: That being said, agelessness isn't really "broken", because most campaigns don't progress so far in time as for it to matter. I feel that either all level twenty characters should all ideally have a means of "immortality" of some sort, or that it should be a specific and special class ability.
Right now it's a specific class ability that wizards can just sorta grab because why not, which is basically the worst of both worlds. It's folklore. Wizards sometimes become immortal, same as alchemists.
Clerics are supposed to die and become saints of their gods. Druids eventually kick off and become one with nature. Sorcerers turn into fiends or dragons or whatever it is they were busy doing all these years and age at the rate of whatever they are.
Rogues and fighters just eventually get old and die unless they do something wild like get drunk and wander into the cathedral of the Starstone like Cayden Cailean, achieving immortality the hard way by ascending to godhood.
It's folklore and storytelling.
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote: ProfessorCirno wrote: 'Rixx wrote: That being said, agelessness isn't really "broken", because most campaigns don't progress so far in time as for it to matter. I feel that either all level twenty characters should all ideally have a means of "immortality" of some sort, or that it should be a specific and special class ability.
Right now it's a specific class ability that wizards can just sorta grab because why not, which is basically the worst of both worlds. It's folklore. Wizards sometimes become immortal, same as alchemists.
Clerics are supposed to die and become saints of their gods. Druids eventually kick off and become one with nature. Sorcerers turn into fiends or dragons or whatever it is they were busy doing all these years and age at the rate of whatever they are.
Rogues and fighters just eventually get old and die unless they do something wild like get drunk and wander into the cathedral of the Starstone like Cayden Cailean, achieving immortality the hard way by ascending to godhood.
It's folklore and storytelling. The problem is that of all your examples, only the one that has wizards getting stuff is implemented.
Also incidentally, wizards rarely if ever become immortal. So that's a wash, too.
ProfessorCirno wrote: Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote: ProfessorCirno wrote: 'Rixx wrote: That being said, agelessness isn't really "broken", because most campaigns don't progress so far in time as for it to matter. I feel that either all level twenty characters should all ideally have a means of "immortality" of some sort, or that it should be a specific and special class ability.
Right now it's a specific class ability that wizards can just sorta grab because why not, which is basically the worst of both worlds. It's folklore. Wizards sometimes become immortal, same as alchemists.
Clerics are supposed to die and become saints of their gods. Druids eventually kick off and become one with nature. Sorcerers turn into fiends or dragons or whatever it is they were busy doing all these years and age at the rate of whatever they are.
Rogues and fighters just eventually get old and die unless they do something wild like get drunk and wander into the cathedral of the Starstone like Cayden Cailean, achieving immortality the hard way by ascending to godhood.
It's folklore and storytelling. The problem is that of all your examples, only the one that has wizards getting stuff is implemented.
Also incidentally, wizards rarely if ever become immortal. So that's a wash, too. Hmm. Glancing around at my bookshelves here.... Barry Hughart's Bridge of Birds. The villain is an immortal wizard. Stolen immortality, but immortal all the same.
Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician. Winner of the American Book Award. Titular character is also an immortal wizard. Okay, "magician" if you want to be technical, but same difference.
Katharine Kerr's Deverry series. The main wizard character, Nevyn, is...wait for it...immortal.
Darrell Scheitzer's Mask of the Sorcerer. All of the sorcerers in it, including the main character, are immortal.
Shetterly and Bull's Liavek series. The most powerful wizard in the city is, yet again, immortal.
Rowling's Harry Potter series. The most powerful wizard, Dumbledore, is not immortal, but only because he made a moral/strategic decision in the first book of the series to flush Nicholas Flammel's philosopher's stone down the toilet rather than let Voldemort get hold of it.
Oh yes, Voldemort--immortal wizard. If he would have gotten away with his plot in the Chamber of Secrets, he would have returned in his body at age sixteen.
So, "rarely"? Maybe taking all the wizards in the universe on average, yeah. But in any given universe, there's at least one wizard who's achieved immortality, and if he's not the main character, the mentor figure, or the BBEG, he's at very least the wizard that all the other wizards are talking about and aspiring to emulate. Making this a pretty reasonable class feature for 20th level wizard characters.
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Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote: Oh yes, Voldemort--immortal wizard. If he would have gotten away with his plot in the Chamber of Secrets, he would have returned in his body at age sixteen. If it weren't for those meddling kids he would have gotten away with it too!
Irulesmost wrote: I'm pretty sure the steps involved in becoming a lich require 2-3 quests starting at 10th level, at most. The steps to become a 20th level wizard on the other hand? Longer, harder, and less convenient. This and also how many wizards in all the world even hit near 20? Even in super magic settings like forgotten realms wizards of that level of power are rare. You may see alot of them but for every one you see hundreds never even got past level 10.
And level 10 in any class is far, far above the power of the common man.
Agelessness would probably be a bit more desired if things like Haste still cost you a year and ghosts were still 1d4*10 years of pain.
Areteas wrote: This power sort of begs the question why more wizards don't pursue this over lichdom, but I guess the rebuild via phylactery and undead powers hold their own appeal for the evil types. Because most of them aren't simply "good enough" to qualify for immortality that way. Lichdom not only provides an "easy" route to immortality it also offers it's own set of benefits and has a particular appeal to necromancer types.
Also remember that experience tables and such are mainly inventions for DM and Player use, the characters themselves would not neccessarily be aware as wizards who progress to 20th plus levels and become immortal are probably very good at hiding that fact. Being a public-ly known immortal is a very good way of making yourself a target.
Yep a big draw about wizards for me IS the immortality factor and with 9th level magic its very, very easy to hide. "OH dear the wizards tower blew up." Search through rubble for treasure "He was messing around with a spell and we found a dead body in there so sad such a wise old man tried something beyond even his formidable powers . . . where shall we hide the treasure till we can sell it?" Meanwhile in a far off town a young man/woman arrives and sets up "Taolbans arcane emporium no spell too small, some spells too big" moving on every few years to a new place and a new life. There is no social security or internet in these settings, a new face and body and you could probably set up shop in the next village over. Even modern day you could pull it off by moving to a major city where no one cares or a small town with a magically created back trail should anyone actually check to see if you lived on the other side of the world. You could even show up with a small kid (using some double spell) and stay in that village you liked as your own son/daughter.
Also
Belgariad most of the mages there were if not immortal close to it.
Feist's magician series Pug, Macros, Miranda and several other prominent mages of good and evil were all immortal.
Amber series: While they can be killed the "mages" there are all very long lived.
Dark is Rising: Mages there live until they defeat their big enemy and then leave the world (rather like Gandulf in lord of the rings).
DND in general: Huge slew of immortal or long lived magic users.
I agree there should be more readily available options for immortality so anyone (well any ridiculously super heroic and overpowered 12-20th level character) can achieve it. Rather than just any very powerful wizard who summons a major djinn (or if they're smart seeks one out) and then goes "Oh mighty and wise 'insert name here" I bring gifts of 'insert researched items that appeal here' in search of an audience with my humble self to request a boon." after striking a deal you supply things to them and they grant you a wish for eternal youth and health (as defined by no aging penalities you can still be hurt or killed).
Areteas wrote: This power sort of begs the question why more wizards don't pursue this over lichdom, but I guess the rebuild via phylactery and undead powers hold their own appeal for the evil types. Because a wizard doesn't "know" that Immortality is an option at 20th level any more than they think of levels. The Arcane Discoveries are player choices for characters to discover, not character choices that the characters are aware of before the event.
Also as you can see from Golarion as an example, the number of wizards that actually reach 20th level are as common as hen's teeth.
LazarX wrote: Areteas wrote: This power sort of begs the question why more wizards don't pursue this over lichdom, but I guess the rebuild via phylactery and undead powers hold their own appeal for the evil types. Because a wizard doesn't "know" that Immortality is an option at 20th level any more than they think of levels. The Arcane Discoveries are player choices for characters to discover, not character choices that the characters are aware of before the event.
Also as you can see from Golarion as an example, the number of wizards that actually reach 20th level are as common as hen's teeth. That is indeed the catch I personally like the idea of 8 levels wizard, 2 levels ranger, 10 levels eldritch knight for the abilities it gets me. However taking that approach would permanently prevent me from gaining the immortality discovery because by the time I was powerful enough to be aware it potentially existed I'd have been barred from every achieveing it by the 2 ranger levels. In game I suspect a lot of high level characters would either never quite reach that pinacle of power or would grab some other training fighter, thief, priest to suppliment their abilities. Then again in game as I said there should be immortality options for any high level character and mid-level wizard since for me 10+ is immensely powerful (a hangover from 1st ed dnd when a character of 7th level would be on of the best in the land."
Liam Warner wrote: Belgariad most of the mages there were if not immortal close to it. They have immortality. Or at least immunity to death by aging and the weakness of aging, since Belgarath is described as extremely fit despite his white hair/beard, Polgara hasn't aged past about 30-ish at the most, and Belgarath muses to himself that they look the way they do because it's a subconscious impulse/force of will thing that does it. The sequel series had somebody who unlocked his own gift for sorcery, and immediately became immortal as a result. He was seven or eight hundred years old when the protagonists met him. I've speculated that the immortality of Belgariad sorcerers is a result of their abilities. Their power sustains them unconsciously, repairing their bodies and maintaining them. Belgarath is even described as being able to go for weeks or months at a time without sleeping when he has to.
If I were to stat them up, I'd probably make them Sorcerers with access to 8th level spells (maybe 18th level for one 9th in the case of Belgarath), and tack on a couple of mythic tiers.
But I digress.
Quote: Then again in game as I said there should be immortality options for any high level character and mid-level wizard since for me 10+ is immensely powerful (a hangover from 1st ed dnd when a character of 7th level would be on of the best in the land." Anybody who manages to gain a single mythic tier can take the universal path ability Longevity, which renders you immortal. 3rd/3.5e also had the "Kissed by the Ages" spell in one of the issues of Dragon, which wound up being a bit like a lich's phylactery except you could be alive, had to keep it on you to maintain your immunity to aging, and I think one or two other things. Then there are the solutions of becoming a dragon (okay, not immortal, necessarily, but really long-lived), stealing life from others (the 3/3.5 Ensul's Soultheft & Steal Soul spells), and so on and so forth.
ProfessorCirno wrote: Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
It's folklore. Wizards sometimes become immortal, same as alchemists.
Clerics are supposed to die and become saints of their gods. Druids eventually kick off and become one with nature. Sorcerers turn into fiends or dragons or whatever it is they were busy doing all these years and age at the rate of whatever they are.
Rogues and fighters just eventually get old and die unless they do something wild like get drunk and wander into the cathedral of the Starstone like Cayden Cailean, achieving immortality the hard way by ascending to godhood.
It's folklore and storytelling.
The problem is that of all your examples, only the one that has wizards getting stuff is implemented. Clerics and druids and rogues and fighters dying is implemented just fine. So is alchemist immortality. There's an grand discovery for eternal youth, which was actually printed before the equivalent wizard discovery. The only things listed not implemented are sorcerers turning into outsiders and the test of the starstone.
Don't expect Paizo to ever publish something that allows a PC to actually take the test of the starstone and ascend to godhood.
Atarlost wrote: Don't expect Paizo to ever publish something that allows a PC to actually take the test of the starstone and ascend to godhood. Mythic Realms?
Starstone (Fount of Power) --> Moment of Ascension/Mythic Trials --> Divine Source --> Be a deity.
A low-ranking deity, of course, but still technically a deity. The Test is different for each individual because of how it works.
Becoming a god should be difficulty, become immortal should be possible to achieve ingame if someone wants and that's my opinion.
LazarX wrote: Also as you can see from Golarion as an example, the number of wizards that actually reach 20th level are as common as hen's teeth. Remember, somebody who becomes a lich wants to avoid the afterlife at basically all costs. Dying is contrary to the plan until you've got a phylactery in place, so these kinds of people will generally level very slowly. There's a lot of potential death going from 11th level to 20th level, and would be liches generally don't have lots of friends or reliable associates.
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