Ok... so we all know the Monk is MAD. In no order, STR, DEX, CON and WIS are all needed, and you can only dump INT and CHA so far.
Dump STR, crap dmg
Dump DEX, crap AC
Dump CON, crap HP
Dump WIS, crap AC, crap saves, crap Ki
Considering what we know, the two easiest stats to dump and replace some other way would then be STR and CON. CON becomes hard to replace.
This leaves us with STR. So what happens if we dip a level into another class for a benefit for STR?
We could dip into Barbarian, but Rage isn't exacty what we want, and it doesn't last.
Now this is where the "wrong" comes in.
Dip a level of Rogue and take Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strikes count as Light Weapons). Get the extremely maneuverable Monk into a flanking position with your other melee PC. Proceed to Flurry.
A Flurry at second level with a STR of 10 will proceed to deal 2d6 per hit. (d6 from both Strikes and Sneak Attack). Hit with both and you're doing 4d6.
Adding a d6 to each Flurry of Blows strike allows STR to remain at 10 while still getting the benefits of having a STR of 12-22!
Feats to take: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Mobility, Precise Strike (Teamwork) etc etc
EDIT: i actually like Monks the way they are. They fun, flavorful and a decent class. but... people complained (including myself) and i thought up an alternative. So Enchanter Tom, thank you so much for your terrible post below.
I like it,
Im gonna call it...
The NINJA!
It's not 'bad monks', it's 'bad players'.
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Personally, I think relying on Weapon Finesse is a poor route to take. Although the monk is not a toe-to-toe fighter you still need to put out reasonable damage and relying on flanking is too situational and you are using up a lot of feats.
I personally leave CON at about 12-13 and have 14-16 DEX & WIS. This allows you to have STR as your main stat and keeps your CMB high for a little control when you can't flurry.
I personally leave CON at about 12-13 and have 14-16 DEX & WIS. This allows you to have STR as your main stat and keeps your CMB high for a little control when you can't flurry.
With what point buy are you having a 12, 14, 14 and a main stat?
I had been considering, Inquisitor 4, Monk +++ of Irori. The new feat to extend your bane rounds by your Wisdom contributes to this idea.
So you Flurry and Add Bane.
For the group i play with this would probly work fine, but weve never gone past level 10 so i dont know how sound it would be later on.
For the group i play with this would probly work fine, but weve never gone past level 10 so i dont know how sound it would be later on.
Ditto.
Most groups are picking up the Core rules around that level and looking at what their next character is going to be.
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With what point buy are you having a 12, 14, 14 and a main stat?
I personally leave CON at about 12-13 and have 14-16 DEX & WIS. This allows you to have STR as your main stat and keeps your CMB high for a little control when you can't flurry.
20 point buy.
STR: 17
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 7
Your Right, it doesnt work as well for the Monk end then, Since youd use the monk robe to get lvl 20 monk hth damage. But in alot of ways the Bane more universally helps i think.
Its a good thematic build. Though wether it suits an optimizers taste i dont know.
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Weapon finesse is the worst feat in the game. It gives you the delusion that you can make a good melee damaging character without strength. As such it's actually counter-productive.
Unfortunately it and Piranha Strike are the only game in town for those of us that want to play swift and lean "moves like water" guy rather than Big McLargehuge.
I think the solution is called Guided. While it suck that you are dependant on a specific magic item to make the character work, it is by far the best way for a monk to preserve damage without hurting his other abilities.
Even with agile maneuvers, you might lose a few points on CMB, but that is manageable.
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No. But the feat doesn't require you to attack with a scimitar to gain the bonus damage.How about abusing Dervish Dance? Hold a scimitar in one hand and get your dexterity on your unarmed strike damage.Would a tattoo of a scimitar in one palm count? :P
Eh, still too much of a mood killer. :(
Back to hopeful dreams of Ultimate Combat.
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Here's a level 2 Monk using that idea. HeroLab won't give me the dex mod to damage on unarmed strikes, so i've changed that manually.
CHEESY MONK CR 1
Male Human Monk 2
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +7
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 12 (+5 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 17 (2d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Evasion
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Scimitar +8 (1d6+5/18-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike FoB +5/+5 +6 (1d6+5/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +5/+5 BAB +1
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 19
Feats Deflect Arrows, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 13), Weapon Finesse
Traits Heirloom Weapon: Scimitar, Masterwork Scimitar, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +10, Intimidate +3, Perception +7, Perform: Dance +3
Languages Common
SQ AC Bonus +2, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Combat Gear Masterwork Scimitar;
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 13) - 0/2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +2 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Flurry of Blows +5/+5 BAB +1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
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Here's a level 2 Monk using that idea. HeroLab won't give me the dex mod to damage on unarmed strikes, so i've changed that manually.
Dump stats and scimitar aside, this is really close to what I wish my monk could be. And it's infuriating that it's only possible via flavor-breaking cheese.
Don't forget Agile Maneuvers further down the line so you get your DEX on your CMB instead of STR!
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Don't forget Agile Maneuvers further down the line so you get your DEX on your CMB instead of STR!
Shouldn't be necessary. Dervish Dance allows you to add your dexterity on all attack rolls instead of strength. Since it isn't limited to a weapon, it applies to all combat maneuvers, similar to good hope or inspire courage.
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Shouldn't be necessary. Dervish Dance allows you to add your dexterity on all attack rolls instead of strength. Since it isn't limited to a weapon, it applies to all combat maneuvers, similar to good hope or inspire courage.
Don't forget Agile Maneuvers further down the line so you get your DEX on your CMB instead of STR!
Ah! Good to know!
...so it does everything Agile Maneuvers does and more...
...
ffffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
Convince your DM to let you have a +1 guided fist wrap. Add wisdom instead of strength to attack and damage includes CMB found in rise of the runelords #4. Then you cry because every single ability that seems to help out monk is really a lie. Pounce (requires level 17), added elemental damage (only once per round), shadowwalk (requires a standard action to exit) all of these are to destroy your hope.
Back in the day we just set it up that monks could use their choice of Str or Dex for to hit and damage modifiers. Once chosen you were bound to that stat though.
It ended up with a lot of high dex monks for the most part but the general increase in DPS made them competitive to fighters when comparing overall abilities. They still did less damage than fighters but with the damage increase and with all their other abilities benefiting from less MAD, they were pretty tough.
Course our theory was that fighters should be the 'king' of combat and that monks should be the 'princes' since they were far more mobile and had so many more abilities compared to a fighter.
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When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
This cheese isn't going to fly at my table. You could only wield the scimitar as an off-hand item in this scenario, thereby negating the feat's use. Otherwise you're just holding a scimitar, not wielding it. I'm sorry, but your cheese is moldy.
Even if your DM is nice enough to allow this he/she should still disallow flurrying while wielding the scimitar. It isn't a monk weapon, after all.
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A 2nd level monk can't have Dervish Dance. He needs to be at least 3rd level to do so.Why do you need to be 3rd?
Dervish Dance has 'perform (dance) 2 ranks' as a prerequisite. So it can't be taken at first level. Since you don't gain a feat at second level, third level is the earliest.
I'd also argue that Heirloom Weapon is not sufficient in fulfilling the scimitar proficiency prerequisite.
I removed some posts and the replies to them.
Be constructive.
I removed some posts and the replies to them.
Be constructive.
So explaining why a character concept is not mathematically strong isn't constructive?
I guess I'll have to reiterate what I wrote:
You're doing 2d6 damage per attack as the monk/rogue, and only if you're flanking. The fighter, on the other hand, is doing 2d6 + 7 damage per attack all the time (when using Power Attack). While you can push out a meager 4d6 (14) damage in a round if you're flanking and if both attacks hit, the fighter is doing 14 damage per swing all day, every day.
And he has a higher attack bonus than you do, so his attacks are more likely to hit. And he probably has a higher AC.
Sorry, but monk/rogue is just not a strong character build.
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.This cheese isn't going to fly at my table. You could only wield the scimitar as an off-hand item in this scenario, thereby negating the feat's use. Otherwise you're just holding a scimitar, not wielding it. I'm sorry, but your cheese is moldy.
Even if your DM is nice enough to allow this he/she should still disallow flurrying while wielding the scimitar. It isn't a monk weapon, after all.
You can have your hands full and still flurry (kicks, headbutts, knees, elbow, etc are all still fair game). You just can't attack with any non-monk weapon. But your wielding distinction is important and is what would get this concept the cheese grater at my table.
I removed some posts and the replies to them.
Be constructive.
So explaining why a character concept is not mathematically strong isn't constructive?
I guess I'll have to reiterate what I wrote:
You're doing 2d6 damage per attack as the monk/rogue, and only if you're flanking. The fighter, on the other hand, is doing 2d6 + 7 damage per attack all the time (when using Power Attack). While you can push out a meager 4d6 (14) damage in a round if you're flanking and if both attacks hit, the fighter is doing 14 damage per swing all day, every day.
And he has a higher attack bonus than you do, so his attacks are more likely to hit. And he probably has a higher AC.
Sorry, but monk/rogue is just not a strong character build.
What's strong or not depends on how the game is run. For example, how does the fighter jump over the pit trap to stop the wizard and cleric who are dropping spells unchecked. If all your combats are toe-to-toe then of course the fighter should and will excel. But if they are dynamic scenarios fighters get stuck a lot. And a monk rogue build is good at exploiting opportunities a fighter couldn't.
You're doing 2d6 damage per attack as the monk/rogue, and only if you're flanking. The fighter, on the other hand, is doing 2d6 + 7 damage per attack all the time (when using Power Attack). While you can push out a meager 4d6 (14) damage in a round if you're flanking and if both attacks hit, the fighter is doing 14 damage per swing all day, every day.And he has a higher attack bonus than you do, so his attacks are more likely to hit. And he probably has a higher AC.
Sorry, but monk/rogue is just not a strong character build.
20 pt buy
Male Human Monk 1 Rogue 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +8
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DEFENSE
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AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 13 (+5 Dex, +1 dodge)
AC with Mobility 23
hp 14 (2d8)
Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +5 (1d6/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows -1/-1, Sneak Attack +1d6
Flurry: +5/+5 for d6/d6
Flurry when Flanking: +7/+7 for 2d6/2d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 20, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 19
Feats Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 14), Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +10, Disable Device +13, Escape Artist +10, Perception +8, Stealth +10
Languages Common
SQ AC Bonus +3, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Trapfinding +1, Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Other Gear Thieves' tools, masterwork
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +3 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Trapfinding +1 +1 to find or disable traps.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
I'll agree that my +2 Fort save could be better.
Aside from combat, I could even be Trapfinding and Disabling Devices.
Perception for Traps: +9
Disable Device: +13
And when I level to 3rd, i get a bonus feat, Evasion, and a feat from being 3rd.
I'm not saying it's better than a Fighter.
I'm saying he can hold his own in combat, and do more out of combat.
This works at level 2. Past level 2 it will not becous you need monk and rogue levels to make it work. And the damage incress for sneak attack is every other level for rogue.
I never said I needed/wanted to progress my sneak attack damage.
At ECL 5 without a stat item, the damage on Flurry goes up to d8+d6 per hit, which is also when I get my Ki pool, so tack on another attack here or there.
WBL at level 5 is 10,500 GP. Which is enough for a +2 stat item for STR or DEX for a little more to hit or damage, and Ring of Prot and Amulet of Nat Armor.
(Unrelated: I think a Gestalt Monk/Rogue would be insane)
I'm not saying it's better than a Fighter.
I'm saying he can hold his own in combat, and do more out of combat.
Sigh. I'm not going to argue this any further, but I just want you to realize that your character has 7 Int and 7 Cha to function. He is literally borderline retarded.
Sigh. I'm not going to argue this any further, but I just want you to realize that your character has 7 Int and 7 Cha to function. He is literally borderline retarded.I'm not saying it's better than a Fighter.
I'm saying he can hold his own in combat, and do more out of combat.
Vow of Silence (to avoid causing problems with the party face
He's a savant.Or if I must appease you without dumping to 7s, hows this work for ya?
10
18
12
9
16
9
I lose 1 AC and 1 to attack. So I'm +6 while Flanking.
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How about abusing Dervish Dance? Hold a scimitar in one hand and get your dexterity on your unarmed strike damage.
This is not "cheese". This is deliberately misreading a rule. It would be equivalent to saying that a first level monk's unarmed strike damage is 1d12 because he is holding a lucerne hammer. The feat description clearly needs to be reworded - you add the DEX bonus to damage on attacks with the scimitar that you are wielding!
I would suggest looking for Treantmonk's awesome monk guide. His main point was to go high strength and realize that no matter how fast you can run, the monk is not an effective mobile fighter. You need to get in melee range and flurry, flurry, flurry.
saw it. sadly, the class as is still relies on a party that's somewhat geared towards helping the Monk more than other classes.
I guess I just don't believe that a single PC should skew the party tactics so much more than other classes.
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I would suggest looking for Treantmonk's awesome monk guide. His main point was to go high strength and realize that no matter how fast you can run, the monk is not an effective mobile fighter. You need to get in melee range and flurry, flurry, flurry.saw it. sadly, the class as is still relies on a party that's somewhat geared towards helping the Monk more than other classes.
I guess I just don't believe that a single PC should skew the party tactics so much more than other classes.
A single PC skewing party tactics? I thought this was about monks, not wizards.
Actually, you are right, the monk is a frontline fighter without the HD and very MAD when it comes to AC. They do need the party's help more than say fighters do, but they are also more versatile outside of combat. Monks are cool, but still a class you play because you love the flavor.In reference to the OP, the rogue multiclass can be effective if your party is good at getting into positionfor flanking and support.
A single PC skewing party tactics? I thought this was about monks, not wizards.
Actually, you are right, the monk is a frontline fighter without the HD and very MAD when it comes to AC. They do need the party's help more than say fighters do, but they are also more versatile outside of combat. Monks are cool, but still a class you play because you love the flavor.
In reference to the OP, the rogue multiclass can be effective if your party is good at getting into positionfor flanking and support.
Yaaaaay someone's on my side!
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How about abusing Dervish Dance? Hold a scimitar in one hand and get your dexterity on your unarmed strike damage.This is not "cheese". This is deliberately misreading a rule. It would be equivalent to saying that a first level monk's unarmed strike damage is 1d12 because he is holding a lucerne hammer. The feat description clearly needs to be reworded - you add the DEX bonus to damage on attacks with the scimitar that you are wielding!
They had the chance to reword the feat when they included it in the Inner Sea World Guide, yet they chose not to do so (unlike the once glorious Aldori Dueling Mastery).
Can you support your statement about the lucerne hammer monk?A monk getting dexterity of damage isn't even broken. Unlike the the 'errataed' terrible remorse which still allows the caster to either shut down an opponent with a spell of third or fourth level or deal 1d8+Str damage to it per round.
If you think it's stupid for a monk to gain a bonus to damage while wielding a scimitar (and it certainly is stupid in my opinion), you are free to allow a monk this bonus by simply expending three feats.
Personally ive despised the monk for decades
now its even worse in PF
I think they are pretty powerful, from evidence of watching others play them and dont need the somewhat sad-rules-abuse outlined above
also they are all without a doubt quite thick and miserable, according to their stats if you wanna viable character
may be all part of the shine coming off PF for me.
How about abusing Dervish Dance? Hold a scimitar in one hand and get your dexterity on your unarmed strike damage.
Apart from being smelly and cheesy, it apparently also doesn't work. I've tried to do this (Dervish Dance) "legally" by playing a monk of the empty hand who can flurry anything (thus also a scimitar) and discussed the possibility with James Jacobs, who explained that it doesn't work. Unfortunately. (Somewhere in the Ask James Jacobs All Your Questions thread.)