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I'm not the biggest follower of non-Paizo publishers of Pathfinder material, but I keep my ear to the rail. As I'm sure everyone in this section of the boards knows, Clark Peterson is returning to game publishing with his hew venture, Legendary Games. I'm sure he or one of his team will be along eventually to comment on the following, but until that happens:
Their first notable release is supplemental material for a "Gothic Adventure Path" (the pros and cons of which have already been discussed here). I can't quite quantify *how*, but it seems to me that this approach of designing multiple products on a single theme (in regular succession) is unique(-ish) among 3PPs. The difference lies somewhere in the focus.
As I mentioned, I don't grind on any 3PPs in particular, but I think I might start with LG. The corollary between Paizo's most successful APs (their #1 product) and LG's releases is too enticing. Plus it carries many of the same names: authors expanding on their own previous works. I feel like their company's mission statement is to explore the lateral space in each AP, to plug holes that Paizo's format limits against. I like that.
What do you think?
I think Zombie Sky Press does this too, with their Fey line.
Rite Publishing has their #30 line, which is #30 of *something*, as well as their 101 Line, which is 101 feats/spells, etc.
SGG has their Loot4Less line, and probably some other (Godlings? Their archetypes?) things too.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm not the biggest follower of non-Paizo publishers of Pathfinder material, but I keep my ear to the rail. As I'm sure everyone in this section of the boards knows, Clark Peterson is returning to game publishing with his hew venture, Legendary Games. I'm sure he or one of his team will be along eventually to comment on the following, but until that happens:
Their first notable release is supplemental material for a "Gothic Adventure Path" (the pros and cons of which have already been discussed here). I can't quite quantify *how*, but it seems to me that this approach of designing multiple products on a single theme (in regular succession) is unique(-ish) among 3PPs. The difference lies somewhere in the focus.
As I mentioned, I don't grind on any 3PPs in particular, but I think I might start with LG. The corollary between Paizo's most successful APs (their #1 product) and LG's releases is too enticing. Plus it carries many of the same names: authors expanding on their own previous works. I feel like their company's mission statement is to explore the lateral space in each AP, to plug holes that Paizo's format limits against. I like that.
What do you think?
That is, in fact, part of what we are offering as a company - a unique perspective on the Paizo APs and what goes into them, from authors who write them. It's not necessarily a 1-to-1 correlation, of course: I didn't write any of the Carrion Crown adventures, but am writing or co-writing a number of the "Gothic AP" support articles for LG. All the same, all of us (excepting Clark himself) have written adventures for some of the APs; heck, Greg Vaughn has written for ALL of them. Besides that, we are all actively involved in a variety of projects for Paizo on an ongoing basis, from rulebooks to Golarion supplements. Each of us has certain strengths and expertise in different elements of writing for Pathfinder and Golarion, from rules to characterization to backstory to encounter and adventure design to pushing the envelope of rules or even genres, and as a collective we can both exercise and maximize those individual strengths and work collaboratively to share and blend those strengths to create amazing products.
Add that insight to a passion for the projects we're doing. We have the luxury of only doing the stuff we really think is going to rock, that we are excited about. We will never have to churn out product to meet a set production schedule, "Okay, magic items of this, races of that, spells of this over here, whatever." If we have awesome ideas for Product X for this AP and the next one and the one after that (and whatever APs already done that we want to work on), we'll keep doing it. If we don't think it's a good fit, or nobody is stoked to do it, we won't.
Our plan will usually be to release multiple complementary pieces each time we bring out product. This kind of creative clustering helps create products that are mutually supporting, and helps you find stuff all together when you're looking for things to supplement your game, be it AP or otherwise. You shouldn't have to hunt around for lonely orphan products; if we are going to hit an AP, we are going to hit it hard, fast, and heavy, with a double side-order of awesomesauce.
By the way, maybe I should emphasize this point: You don't need to be playing an AP to get a lot of mileage out of these products. They are designed to work particularly well with the Paizo APs, but anybody should feel confident that they are going to find something they will like and can use.
In the end, I'm glad you are looking at LG and looking forward to our products. I'm reminded of the scene in Disney's Aladdin, when the hero steps out on his magic carpet and extends his hand to Princess Jasmine and asks, "Do you trust me?"
Look at who's involved in Legendary Games. Do you trust us to deliver the goods? I think you should. Who knows, we might just take you to a whole new world... :)
No talking parrot, though. Unfortunately :)
I love this approach, and I think it is a perfect area for a 3pp. My suggestion would be to check out some of the lengthy discussions in the AP forums and figure out cool ways to address these "trouble" spots. Often people are looking for interesting and consistent party storylines that make sense for the entire AP, I'm thinking specifically of SD and SS. I bet if you guys could figure out a product that addresses that you would make many folks happy.
Our plan will usually be to release multiple complementary pieces each time we bring out product. This kind of creative clustering helps create products that are mutually supporting, and helps you find stuff all together when you're looking for things to supplement your game, be it AP or otherwise. You shouldn't have to hunt around for lonely orphan products; if we are going to hit an AP, we are going to hit it hard, fast, and heavy, with a double side-order of awesome sauce.
I only buy two kinds of materials from 3PP. 1) Gaming aids, such as lists of spells by class, condition cards, monster knowledge cards, etc., and only minimally. And 2) specific AP material, such as JBE's excellent Kingmaker supplemental material!
So, this I will buy !!!!
I am running Kingmaker, the alternate DM is running Serpent Skull (every other Monday). After we finish I will probably run Jade Regent. Not sure which AP he will do, but you publish stuff like above, and we will buy it.
-- david
Papa.DRB
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I love this approach, and I think it is a perfect area for a 3pp. My suggestion would be to check out some of the lengthy discussions in the AP forums and figure out cool ways to address these "trouble" spots. Often people are looking for interesting and consistent party storylines that make sense for the entire AP, I'm thinking specifically of SD and SS. I bet if you guys could figure out a product that addresses that you would make many folks happy.
That does bring up an interesting aspect of our strategy. On one hand, it's sensible to make products for the APs that are most popular. People love them, so they are apt to be interested in products that enhance them.
At the same time, some of the APs haven't been quite as well received or popular, for a variety of reasons. We are working on some ideas that might help address some of those reasons, and people who at first weren't too keen on those APs might find themselves giving them a second look. Whether we "fix" these APs enough for some people, who knows, but we just might help our friends at Paizo sell a little more backstock if we can revitalize interest in old product, and that's good for all of us!
...some of the APs haven't been quite as well received or popular, for a variety of reasons. We are working on some ideas that might help address some of those reasons, and people who at first weren't too keen on those APs might find themselves giving them a second look. Whether we "fix" these APs enough for some people, who knows, but we just might help our friends at Paizo sell a little more backstock if we can revitalize interest in old product, and that's good for all of us!
Ditto on what Jason's asserting here. I wrote the finale for Serpent's Skull, and, based on some of those messageboard discussions you've referenced, a fair number of people seemingly jumped off the Serpent's Skull AP "train" around City of Seven Spears. So, just for the purely selfish reason of wanting people to give it another go (and hopefully reach my adventure in part 6), it'd be in our own interest to give some alternative material compatible with that part of the AP. At the same time, doing AP plug-ins for older adventure paths will hopefully re-energize sales around Paizo's backstock. The APs have pretty good legs already, but this type of 3PP product couldn't hurt.
That sounds totally awesome.
JBE has been doing this for a year now. First we did a print book of monsters for Kingmaker then we released the new rules for Kingmaker as a pdf series which became a print book.
Staying close to Paizo's core product line is a smart business move. The product(s) has a built in audience, it makes their game run smoother with the additional rules being in the player's hands, the 3PP can show their creative abilities by expanding on the rules, and the additional support helps the AP to do well.
IMO if all the 3PP chose an AP or two and provided support for them, there would be enough for everyone and it would help Paizo's core product line. Everyone wins. Plus it helps us to not be stepping on each others toes, helping us from feeling like there's to many publishers in the water.
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I dont look at it as stepping on toes at all. We each do different things and with different authors. Just by the nature of being different companies we will make different things. Our set of monsters will be different than what someone else does. And that is good for everyone. Believe me, there are not too many publishers in the water. Plus, Legendary will help all 3Ps by drawing attention. Our authors will likely lead people to check out 3Ps who might otherwise not have (you've already seen that in this thread). So once they check us out, it is a small leap to check other 3Ps. So us supporting all APs helps everyone. Plus, we love them and it is a ton of fun.
So Legendary will be doing support for all upcoming APs. And we will dip back to a few in the past. We won't be divvying up. That doesn't help the customer or fan. Plus, I've already spoken with Lisa and she is hyped for us to do some Kingmaker, which we will definitely do.
JBE has done great stuff. And I applaud them for it and cheer them on. I saw your stuff at PaizoCon, Dale and it is good stuff. I hope you keep making similar stuff for other APs. We will too. That just makes more choices for the fans. It doesn't make sense to divvy up APs. We will make awesome stuff for all the APs from here out (and a few back). That is our goal. If other companies have done it or intend to do it, that is awesome! More choice for the fans is better for the fans.
Clark
Ditto on what Jason's asserting here. I wrote the finale for Serpent's Skull, and, based on some of those messageboard discussions you've referenced, a fair number of people seemingly jumped off the Serpent's Skull AP "train" around City of Seven Spears. So, just for the purely selfish reason of wanting people to give it another go (and hopefully reach my adventure in part 6), it'd be in our own interest to give some alternative material compatible with that part of the AP. At the same time, doing AP plug-ins for older adventure paths will hopefully re-energize sales around Paizo's backstock. The APs have pretty good legs already, but this type of 3PP product couldn't hurt.
I'd love to see additional material for Serpent's Skull, and you're quite right - the stumbling block is City of Seven Spears. Without wanting to sidetrack into another discussion of its faults, it bored me and it will bore my players (when we get there, we're just starting Racing to Ruin after the awesome Smuggler's Shiv). Way too much fighting; the review of it by Erik Freund was nail-on-the-head accurate so it could really use some 'Wow - this is the most amazing lost city ever' plug ins, perhaps some stuff to beef up the investigation of the ruins / deciphering inscriptions angle. Oh, and some maps would be helpful.
CEO
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Plus, I've already spoken with Lisa and she is hyped for us to do some Kingmaker, which we will definitely do.
Yeah, where is my Kingmaker stuff, Clark!? Time is a wasting! I need more stuff for Jason's adventure (though he has been kind enough to already email me a bunch of stuff that hit the cutting room floor). I am using JBE kingdom building stuff already, along with stuff from other folks like Open Design. I can always use more! So get to work. Less yapping and more releasing of new product! :)
-Lisa
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Plus, I've already spoken with Lisa and she is hyped for us to do some Kingmaker, which we will definitely do.Yeah, where is my Kingmaker stuff, Clark!? Time is a wasting! I need more stuff for Jason's adventure (though he has been kind enough to already email me a bunch of stuff that hit the cutting room floor). I am using JBE kingdom building stuff already, along with stuff from other folks like Open Design. I can always use more! So get to work. Less yapping and more releasing of new product! :)
-Lisa
Try using a whip on him, I find it effective. :)
I thought that was just British judges. O.0
Yeah, where is my Kingmaker stuff, Clark!? Time is a wasting! I need more stuff for Jason's adventure (though he has been kind enough to already email me a bunch of stuff that hit the cutting room floor). I am using JBE kingdom building stuff already, along with stuff from other folks like Open Design. I can always use more! So get to work. Less yapping and more releasing of new product! :)
-Lisa
Lisa-
We were brainstorming Kingmaker stuff the other day. Most of the authors, though, are busy working on upcoming AP installments for Paizo (which takes priority over doing stuff for Legendary Games, of course).
I've got some ideas, though :)
Clark
So why not "inspire" him further and loosen up those IP restrictions by letting Legendary Games actually reference Golarian locations, NPCs, etc? Help him out by removing the layer of obfuscation Legendary Game has to work under due to IP restrictions. :)
Those are the rules everyone works under. Its fine.
So why not "inspire" him further and loosen up those IP restrictions by letting Legendary Games actually reference Golarian locations, NPCs, etc? Help him out by removing the layer of obfuscation Legendary Game has to work under due to IP restrictions. :)
I actually prefer them in a more generic form. I'm more likely to make use of the material in a home game.
Those are the rules everyone works under. Its fine.
So why not "inspire" him further and loosen up those IP restrictions by letting Legendary Games actually reference Golarian locations, NPCs, etc? Help him out by removing the layer of obfuscation Legendary Game has to work under due to IP restrictions. :)
Also, with only a little hearsay from a Brandon Hodge interview about From Shore to Sea to go by, I suspect Paizo would want to vet anything done with their IP by another company, which probably would add to the workload for both companies.
Discussed in detail in THIS thread over the last few days.