I have a question on the "One round" casting time of the summon monster spells.
Does the "one round" casting time mean a summoner is casting, and vulnerable to interruption and a spell craft check, for an entire round or does it means the spell is cast on the summoner's action and the monsters do not arrive until the following round?
An important point I am unsure about.
As much as they have gimped summoning already by making it virtually impossible to communicate with your summons I would not be surprised if they further gimped the spells by making it VERY easy to interrupt.
Anyone?
They provoke once, when they start casting the spell. They finish casting the spell right before their next turn.
And just pump Handle Animal to communicate if you can't speak their language.
I have a question on the "One round" casting time of the summon monster spells.
Does the "one round" casting time mean a summoner is casting, and vulnerable to interruption and a spell craft check, for an entire round or does it means the spell is cast on the summoner's action and the monsters do not arrive until the following round?
An important point I am unsure about.
As much as they have gimped summoning already by making it virtually impossible to communicate with your summons I would not be surprised if they further gimped the spells by making it VERY easy to interrupt.
Anyone?
You start casting and can be interrupted (by damage and concentration, or by counterspell) anytime until the start of your next turn when the spellcasting ends and the monsters appear. So, yes, absolutely everyone else in the initiative order (either after you in the round you start, or before you in the round you finish) can attempt to stop the spell or kill the caster before you're done.
However, you only provoke an AoO for casting (if you're not casting defensively) when you start casting the spell.
Anyone have a clue the reasoning for this? It seems a bit extreme? The one round casting time is just a bit much I think.
Are the summon spells considered superior or something to be punished like this?
They add damage.
They soak up hits.
They increase your spells due to SLAs.
Yea, they're pretty good.
If they are so good why not bump the spell level 1 rank or something. Could not dislike this more but a rule is a rule. It also violates teh cardinal "everyone gets one action a round" rule. Oh well....
So, when do you target where the monsters appear? When casting or when they arrive?
The person summoning does get an action a round: they choose to summon a creature!
I would assume they get to choose it when it's done. Otherwise things could change too much!
There are quite a few ways to get around the 1 round casting time of the spells though. One is to be a cleric, and take Sacred Summons. Druid animal shamans can do it as well, I think Master Summoners too.
The person summoning does get an action a round: they choose to summon a creature!
I would assume they get to choose it when it's done. Otherwise things could change too much!
There are quite a few ways to get around the 1 round casting time of the spells though. One is to be a cleric, and take Sacred Summons. Druid animal shamans can do it as well, I think Master Summoners too.
preservationist alchemist gets around it too
Sure, they choose to summon which actually takes more than the current round. It also allows, in effect, the summoner to take 2 actions the following round by having their summons attack AND casting a spell.
Combine this with the complete and total nerfing the ability to command/communicate with the summons. Why not just remove the spells or bump the level?
So many things wrong with this I don't know where to start.
Oh well, it is what it is. Nothing to do but deal with it I suppose.
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If they are so good why not bump the spell level 1 rank or something. Could not dislike this more but a rule is a rule. It also violates teh cardinal "everyone gets one action a round" rule. Oh well....
So, when do you target where the monsters appear? When casting or when they arrive?
It doesn't violate that rule at all. In fact, the 1 round casting time is specifically to enforce that rule. If it was a 1 standard action casting time then the summoner could summon with their standard action, and then summoned animals would pop up and get a turn, effectively giving the summoner 2 actions that round (1 to cast, 1 to attack--or do anything else--with animals/monsters).
Imagine if your DM dropped a line of summons between you and the squishy without any warning and then they also attacked immediately! Summon nature's ally/summon monster are incredibly powerful spells because of their versatility. No matter what you need, you can summon the right critter to do it. The spells don't need to be made stronger.
The location of the summon is determined by the summoner at the start of his next turn, when the animals/monsters appear.
And it is not impossible to communicate with the summons. Put some points in linguistics, or get tongues, or get handle animal. Besides, even if you can't communicate, the summons still act to the best of their ability to harm your enemies.
Also being unable to speak their language does not mean you cannot communicate. You could pantomime or just point at the dude you want them to hit. They have intelligence scores for a reason.
(Sorry for the double post. Forgot to add this to the last one.)
Pointless to argue really but consider this....
My initiative is 10. On to I cast burning hands on an orc and do damage.
My initiative is 10. I cast summon monster 1 (maybe) assuming nothing happens for an entire round that I take damage from. Then.... NOTHING HAPPENS. Next round, yes, NEXT ROUND my monster shows up.
If summon monster 1 is a standard action, as it clearly should be, I cast summon monster 1 and my summon may do damage, just like if I cast burning hands.
You know, cast a spell and do damage. One action per round. ZERO difference between summon and a damage spell, at least there should be ZERO difference.
Yes, the summon persists. So, bump the spell level. Do not destroy and entire series of spells.
Linguistics? Really? With 8+ options per level? Who exactly will teach me dolphin? or Eagle? The totally needless nerfing of the Celestial template and the Int boost with the templateis just inane. Elementals no longer have a language? Nice.
Tounges? A 4th level spell? Handle Animal? A non-bonus skill for a class that get 2 points/level and which I have to spend an action to try and use?
I understand you are trying to defend ths chance even though it it clearly indefensable.
In a game where a mage is a full round attack from being dead at any level why make an entire spell lines so much less effective? Not to mention the level of over-complication this adds to a combat.
Oh well, said my piece and am done now.
In a game where a mage is a full round attack from being dead at any level why make an entire spell lines so much less effective? Not to mention the level of over-complication this adds to a combat.
Thank heavens, that should stop anyone complaining about the power of magic-using classes now. ; )
More seriously, if a mage is in a position where he/she can be full-attacked by an enemy, there's something more seriously wrong than summon monster taking too long to cast. D&D/Pathfinder is conceptually a game about a group of heroes, not a single one. If the mage is fighting hand-to-hand with a combat class, something somewhere has gone horribly wrong. And if it happens a lot, the magic-using player and his/her companions should take steps to avoid it and/or find a new GM, depending on the cause of the predicament in the first place.
As for the actual debate, I don't think summon monster is underpowered. I reckon summon nature's ally could do with a few more useful additions at lower levels (not sure what...), but summon monster and I get along just fine.
Having said that, the complication factor of a handful of spells taking a full round to cast when almost every other common spell does not is a little newbie-unfriendly. It would be good to have the material on page 187 of the Core Rulebook reprinted--or at least referenced--on page 213. Not to mention the difference between a spontaneous metamagic '1 round' and a normal '1 round' casting time. That could probably do with some more clarity, probably most helpfully through designating a '1 round' spell something other than a 'full round action'.
Pointless to argue really but consider this....
My initiative is 10. On to I cast burning hands on an orc and do damage.
My initiative is 10. I cast summon monster 1 (maybe) assuming nothing happens for an entire round that I take damage from. Then.... NOTHING HAPPENS. Next round, yes, NEXT ROUND my monster shows up.
Alternate situation: Combat starts, your init is 10. You cast Summon Monster 3.
Next round, at 10 - your Lantern archon appears, blasts the orcs with Rays (unless you tell it to do something else because you speak Celestial, right?) - oh, and as *your* action in round 2 - you cast Burning Hands and fry the orcs.
So, in 2 rounds, you've had 2 actions, both of which did damage. Makes sense, no?