Sorry for the double post, but the forums seem to have broken on my previous attempt to post this...so, retyping and reposting!
Simply, a lion animal companion has 3 natural attacks, 1 Bite and 2 Claws. According to the chart for natural attacks, both Bite and Claw are considered to be Primary natural weapons, so the lion uses the full BAB and Str for all 3 attacks.
9th level progression grants Multiattack if the companion has 3 or more natural attacks. The text goes on to list an alternative if the animal doesn't have 3 attacks.
Source
So here's the question. If the lion doesn't have a Secondary attack for Multiattack to apply towards, and the lion does have 3 Natural Attacks already, what, if anything, does multiattack do for a lion?
If the answer is "it does nothing", would it be appropriate to ask to substitute multiattack for a feat that would actually be useful (such as Weapon Focus:Claws)? Being that the lion does have 3 primary natural attacks plus pounce/grab/rake, I would certainly understand if a different bonus feat was asking too much.
No it doesn't do anything for the lion, as it is for most animal companions.
If you want another feat you will have to ask your DM.
No it doesn't do anything for the lion, as it is for most animal companions.
If you want another feat you will have to ask your DM.
That's what I thought.
Now I need to figure out what to do...
1. Accept that the bonus feat doesn't help me and leave it be
2. Ask my DM if I can sub Multiattack for another feat s/a Weapon Focus:Claws
3. Ask my DM to allow the multiattack feat to give me the option of attacking on a Full Attack action with 2 Bite attacks instead of 1 Bite and 2 Claws. It would be 1 less attack roll, with the second bite at -5 too, but would give me two chances to use Grab (free grapple on Bite), and it would have to be during a Full Attack action, not a Pounce.
I suppose Multiattack would actually do something if Anthropomorhic Animal was cast on the lion, but I don't really see that happening...
I think you're spot on with the analysis that effectively it does nothing as a lion does not have secondary natural attacks.
It seems a slight rewrite might be in order to say something like "both primary and secondary natural attacks" instead of "3 or more natural attacks."
I would suggest that you use the alternate as if the lion doesn't have three or natural attacks. In other words, you gain a second bite attack. Of course, this might interfere with rack attacks.
If I was GM I would be leery of giving a kitty weapon focus(claws) as that could apply to up to four attacks a round. That's a pretty big perk. I might allow weapon focus(bite).
Of course, a GM could be perfectly justified in saying you got multiattack as feat even if it is useless, them's the breaks, lions are still pretty awesome. Look at the bright side, if the lion ever sprouts wings, he will be able to make wing buffets at only a -2 penalty.
If I was GM I would be leery of giving a kitty weapon focus(claws) as that could apply to up to four attacks a round. That's a pretty big perk. I might allow weapon focus(bite).
You only can have 2 claw attacks per round. Even on a full attack action, the BAB progression for animal companions doesn't list that you gain iterative attacks.
Of course, a GM could be perfectly justified in saying you got multiattack as feat even if it is useless, them's the breaks, lions are still pretty awesome. Look at the bright side, if the lion ever sprouts wings, he will be able to make wing buffets at only a -2 penalty.
Hahaha! Sprout wings... excellent.
Of course, a GM could be perfectly justified in saying you got multiattack as feat even if it is useless, them's the breaks, lions are still pretty awesome.
The odd thing is that, as far as I can tell, for a 9th level druid there's no animal companion in the Core Rulebook that would have a secondary natural attack. (The horse has a secondary hoof attack, but it becomes a primary attack once it gets the "combat trained" ability.)
You only can have 2 claw attacks per round. Even on a full attack action, the BAB progression for animal companions doesn't list that you gain iterative attacks.
On a rake, you can get two front paws, and two rear paws. That's four possible.
You don't own a cat do you? Otherwise, you will have seen rake in action. :-P
You only can have 2 claw attacks per round. Even on a full attack action, the BAB progression for animal companions doesn't list that you gain iterative attacks.On a rake, you can get two front paws, and two rear paws. That's four possible.
You don't own a cat do you? Otherwise, you will have seen rake in action. :-P
The statblock only lists 2 claws, though. Even though a cat can claw you IRL with all 4 limbs, it's limited to 2 here >.>
The odd thing is that, as far as I can tell, for a 9th level druid there's no animal companion in the Core Rulebook that would have a secondary natural attack. (The horse has a secondary hoof attack, but it becomes a primary attack once it gets the "combat trained" ability.)
I just ran through the page of companions searching for "secondary" and found these animals with secondary attacks: Roc, Ape, Allosaurus, Horse, Dragonne, Giant Mantis (only during grapple), Megaloceros
I just ran through the page of companions searching for "secondary" and found these animals with secondary attacks: Roc, Ape, Allosaurus, Horse, Dragonne, Giant Mantis (only during grapple), Megaloceros
I'm not sure where you're looking, but on the Paizo PRD web site (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/index.html), neither the Roc nor the Ape lists a secondary attack. I commented on the Horse above, and the Dragonne isn't a valid animal companion. I'm not sure where you're getting data for the Allosaurus, Megaloceros or Giant Mantis, so I can't comment on those.
I'm not sure where you're looking, but on the Paizo PRD web site (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/index.html), neither the Roc nor the Ape lists a secondary attack. I commented on the Horse above, and the Dragonne isn't a valid animal companion. I'm not sure where you're getting data for the Allosaurus, Megaloceros or Giant Mantis, so I can't comment on those.
It's from sources outside of the Core Rulebook:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions
The statblock only lists 2 claws, though. Even though a cat can claw you IRL with all 4 limbs, it's limited to 2 here >.>You only can have 2 claw attacks per round. Even on a full attack action, the BAB progression for animal companions doesn't list that you gain iterative attacks.On a rake, you can get two front paws, and two rear paws. That's four possible.
You don't own a cat do you? Otherwise, you will have seen rake in action. :-P
Actually, no, it's not -- at least not after the upgrade.... See:
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6) .
I'm not sure where you're looking, but on the Paizo PRD web site (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/index.html), neither the Roc nor the Ape lists a secondary attack. I commented on the Horse above, and the Dragonne isn't a valid animal companion. I'm not sure where you're getting data for the Allosaurus, Megaloceros or Giant Mantis, so I can't comment on those.It's from sources outside of the Core Rulebook:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions
I just checked the d20pfsrd on the ape animal companion and it's wrong, the ape has 3 primary attacks.
Actually, no, it's not -- at least not after the upgrade.... See:7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6) .
I'm fairly certain that you can't do a full attack against a grappled target.
If the lion has the target grappled by chomping down on them, you can do bite damage at the start of the round. Due to Rake, you can add two claw attacks on top of that. You don't get to do a Bite+2 claws +Rake
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
If the lion has the target grappled by chomping down on them, you can do bite damage at the start of the round. Due to Rake, you can add two claw attacks on top of that. You don't get to do a Bite+2 claws +Rake** spoiler omitted **
Actually, yes -- you'll notice in addition to rake (which I bolded), it also gets pounce, which, according to the PRD:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
So, pounce = full attack plus rake.
The statblock only lists 2 claws, though. Even though a cat can claw you IRL with all 4 limbs, it's limited to 2 here >.>
Melee bite +7 (1d8+5 plus grab), 2 claws +7 (1d4+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +7, 1d4+5)
Let's see, last time I checked 2 + 2 = 4.
Anytime a lion rakes it gets four claw attacks per round; whether you visualize them as two additional front paw or two rear paws (as I always have).
Or am I just totally missing your point?
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).So, pounce = full attack plus rake.
Yikes... For some reason I was thinking that the 2 claw attacks granted to Pounce came from Rake in the first place. My mistake. So on a charge you get 4x claw attacks, but on a grapple it's just 2 claws (from rake), right?
I'm fairly certain that you can't do a full attack against a grappled target.
If the lion has the target grappled by chomping down on them, you can do bite damage at the start of the round. Due to Rake, you can add two claw attacks on top of that. You don't get to do a Bite+2 claws +Rake
OK. Now I think I see your argument, that once the lion bites and grabs his opponent the lion is grappled and can't make additional attacks.
Interesting. I gonna ruminate on this a little bit. I see your point but I've never seen it played that way...
I'm fairly certain that you can't do a full attack against a grappled target.
If the lion has the target grappled by chomping down on them, you can do bite damage at the start of the round. Due to Rake, you can add two claw attacks on top of that. You don't get to do a Bite+2 claws +Rake
OK. Now I think I see your argument, that once the lion bites and grabs his opponent the lion is grappled and can't make additional attacks.
Interesting. I gonna ruminate on this a little bit. I see your point but I've never seen it played that way...
No, that wasn't it, actually >.> I wasn't factoring in Pounce to the discussion while the rest of you were. I also had an improper idea of how Pounce worked.
I'd say that you still get the 4x claw attacks on a charge+pounce, regardless of the grapple result of the bite. Just because you latch on to the target doesn't mean that your claws aren't still impacting the target from the initial pounce.
Yikes... For some reason I was thinking that the 2 claw attacks granted to Pounce came from Rake in the first place. My mistake. So on a charge you get 4x claw attacks, but on a grapple it's just 2 claws (from rake), right?
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).So, pounce = full attack plus rake.
Depends.
If the Lion uses Grab to only use it's mouth to get the grapple (with the penalty), it will auto-inflict bite damage by maintaining the grapple (well, assuming it succeeds the check) and also be free to use all 4 claws.
No, that wasn't it, actually >.> I wasn't factoring in Pounce to the discussion while the rest of you were. I also had an improper idea of how Pounce worked.
I'd say that you still get the 4x claw attacks on a charge+pounce, regardless of the grapple result of the bite. Just because you latch on to the target doesn't mean that your claws aren't still impacting the target from the initial pounce.
I was pretty sure pounce got you the bonus attacks, but I started to look at the follow-on rounds. I thought the combination of grab and rake allowed the kitty four attacks in following rounds as well. Your comments are making me rethink that.
If the Lion uses Grab to only use it's mouth to get the grapple (with the penalty), it will auto-inflict bite damage by maintaining the grapple (well, assuming it succeeds the check) and also be free to use all 4 claws.
This is the part that has me rethinking this. While the grab ability says you no longer have the grappled condition. I don't see anything that eliminates the need to use a standard action to continue the grapple in the second round.
What am I missing?
I was pretty sure pounce got you the bonus attacks, but I started to look at the follow-on rounds. I thought the combination of grab and rake allowed the kitty four attacks in following rounds as well. Your comments are making me rethink that.No, that wasn't it, actually >.> I wasn't factoring in Pounce to the discussion while the rest of you were. I also had an improper idea of how Pounce worked.
I'd say that you still get the 4x claw attacks on a charge+pounce, regardless of the grapple result of the bite. Just because you latch on to the target doesn't mean that your claws aren't still impacting the target from the initial pounce.
Well I'm in no way an expert... I've only been playing for about 6 months now, I just like to think that I pick up on rules quickly.
That said... If a human (let's say a lvl15 fighter) grapples someone, I'm fairly certain that he only gets one unarmed strike versus the grappled target. Logically, you're putting most of your energy into maintaining this grapple, so one hit.
The lion is starting the grapple on the first round with its Bite. On the second round you have to roll another grapple check with a +4 bonus. If successful, you can move, or inflict some damage, or pin the defender.
* So the lion is gripping the target in its jaws, it can drag it back as part of the grapple.
* The lion can instead chomp down harder, inflicting bite damage through the grapple, and then perform a Rake attack for 2 free claws.
* Last option would be to pin the defender. I can only assume that this would involve knocking the target prone and climbing on top
Any way you look at it, I don't see how you would get 4x claws on the rounds following the start of the grapple. I pulled my information from the flowcharts in the pdf's here.
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I was pretty sure pounce got you the bonus attacks, but I started to look at the follow-on rounds. I thought the combination of grab and rake allowed the kitty four attacks in following rounds as well. Your comments are making me rethink that.No, that wasn't it, actually >.> I wasn't factoring in Pounce to the discussion while the rest of you were. I also had an improper idea of how Pounce worked.
I'd say that you still get the 4x claw attacks on a charge+pounce, regardless of the grapple result of the bite. Just because you latch on to the target doesn't mean that your claws aren't still impacting the target from the initial pounce.
Well I'm in no way an expert... I've only been playing for about 6 months now, I just like to think that I pick up on rules quickly.
That said... If a human (let's say a lvl15 fighter) grapples someone, I'm fairly certain that he only gets one unarmed strike versus the grappled target. Logically, you're putting most of your energy into maintaining this grapple, so one hit.
The lion is starting the grapple on the first round with its Bite. On the second round you have to roll another grapple check with a +4 bonus. If successful, you can move, or inflict some damage, or pin the defender.
* So the lion is gripping the target in its jaws, it can drag it back as part of the grapple.
* The lion can instead chomp down harder, inflicting bite damage through the grapple, and then perform a Rake attack for 2 free claws.
* Last option would be to pin the defender. I can only assume that this would involve knocking the target prone and climbing on topAny way you look at it, I don't see how you would get 4x claws on the rounds following the start of the grapple. I pulled my information from the flowcharts in the pdf's here.
You do it by not maintaining the grapple. Just let go at the start of the next round.
This leaves the kitty open to bite again and get an automatic free grapple check if it hits, this applies the grappled condition to the target then the Lion uses all it's remaining attacks to shred it's grappled foe.Rinse and repeat till it's dead.
Because they don't have to maintain a grapple. All a lion has to do is hit with the bite attack again to get a grapple attempt.
So the lion can claw 4 times first, then bite again and if bite is successful free grapple.
But alas, "it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
You do it by not maintaining the grapple. Just let go at the start of the next...
You only get Rake on Pounce and if the target is grappled. The text for Rake specifically states:
"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."The benefit gained by maintaining the grapple into the second/third/etc. rounds is that it gives you automatic bite damage, inflicts the grappled condition, and allows you to still roll two free claw attacks via rake.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Got another question to throw another wrench into the pile...
What happens if the lion is effected by Haste or Blessing of Fervor? What is used for the extra weapon attack on a Full Attack?
If the Lion uses Grab to only use it's mouth to get the grapple (with the penalty), it will auto-inflict bite damage by maintaining the grapple (well, assuming it succeeds the check) and also be free to use all 4 claws.This is the part that has me rethinking this. While the grab ability says you no longer have the grappled condition. I don't see anything that eliminates the need to use a standard action to continue the grapple in the second round.
What am I missing?
Well, unless I'm missing something, the Grab power says you automatically inflict the damage from the original attack when you make the action to maintain the grapple.
I assumed this was above the "Damage" option (since the Lion could, instead, choose to move the grappled foe and still get the bite damage, per Grab).
As such, if (as part of your maintaining the grapple), you select the "Damage" option (instead of the move or the pin attempt), it allows you to use a light or natural weapon (eg - Your front claws), and then rake allows you 2 additional free Claw attacks.
Am I reading this differently than everyone else?
Well, unless I'm missing something, the Grab power says you automatically inflict the damage from the original attack when you make the action to maintain the grapple.
I assumed this was above the "Damage" option (since the Lion could, instead, choose to move the grappled foe and still get the bite damage, per Grab).
As such, if (as part of your maintaining the grapple), you select the "Damage" option (instead of the move or the pin attempt), it allows you to use a light or natural weapon (eg - Your front claws), and then rake allows you 2 additional free Claw attacks.
Am I reading this differently than everyone else?
Grab doesn't say that, it actually says the opposite.
"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack."The "damage" option allows you to use your Bite attack as the natural attack to inflict damage. You could instead use a single claw attack. The Rake ability allows you to pile on two additional claw attacks on top of that.
Dragonne isn't a valid animal companion. It was from the Bonus Bestiary where it and the Axe Beak were given animal companion stats. However, between when the BB came out and when the Core Rulebook came out, the definition of an animal companion changed, and this meant that the Dragonne was no longer a valid animal companion. Axe Beak still is.
We have fixed the problem on D20PFSRD, we erroneously listed the claw attacks as secondary before the 4th level advancement.
Sorry for the confusion and thanks for bringing it to our attention.
We have fixed the problem on D20PFSRD, we erroneously listed the claw attacks as secondary before the 4th level advancement.
Sorry for the confusion and thanks for bringing it to our attention.
The roc is still incorrect (the bite is not a secondary attack).
I was under the impression that rake was similar to rend in that even though it was 2 claws, it was a single attack and damage. Is there somewhere it clarifies this in one of the books?
The text for Rake indicates "attacks" in the plural
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
I would expect that that means that it gives you two separate claw attacks, each with its own damage. If it was a single attack, I would think it would say "..a monster with the rake ability gains one free claw attack that combines both claws into one strike..."
The roc is still incorrect (the bite is not a secondary attack).We have fixed the problem on D20PFSRD, we erroneously listed the claw attacks as secondary before the 4th level advancement.
Sorry for the confusion and thanks for bringing it to our attention.
You're right. It's been changed.
Grab doesn't say that, it actually says the opposite.
"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack."
The "damage" option allows you to use your Bite attack as the natural attack to inflict damage. You could instead use a single claw attack. The Rake ability allows you to pile on two additional claw attacks on top of that.
Ah, so I'm misreading this:
"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."
as saying that it works this way if the creature lacks the constrict special, rather than if it has the constrict special and chooses not to use it (in which case it adds constriction damage)?
Huh, yeah, I guess it does seem to read that way. Well then, my bad. Fair enough. (Logically, you would think the clamped down jaws would continue to be clamped down, but hey.)
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I was under the impression that rake was similar to rend in that even though it was 2 claws, it was a single attack and damage. Is there somewhere it clarifies this in one of the books?The text for Rake indicates "attacks" in the plural
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.I would expect that that means that it gives you two separate claw attacks, each with its own damage. If it was a single attack, I would think it would say "..a monster with the rake ability gains one free claw attack that combines both claws into one strike..."
Thanks for clarifying...for some reason I was confused and thought lions were one of those creatures that got an extra rake attack in regular melee if both claws hit.
Huh, yeah, I guess it does seem to read that way. Well then, my bad. Fair enough. (Logically, you would think the clamped down jaws would continue to be clamped down, but hey.)
I believe that the damage isn't auto-inflicted due to armor factors. For example, picture the attack dog training outfit that you always see on tv (basically a person in a giant marshmallow). The dogs are able to "grapple" that person, but the jaw isn't biting through the "armor". That's what's going on here too. Just because you're gripping the target doesn't mean that you'll bite through the armor.
That said... the attack roll for the Bite should be made without a shield bonus or dex bonus to AC. I know that the grapple condition gives the target a -4 to dex to begin with, but if you're gripping them, they can't dodge...
Huh, yeah, I guess it does seem to read that way. Well then, my bad. Fair enough. (Logically, you would think the clamped down jaws would continue to be clamped down, but hey.)I believe that the damage isn't auto-inflicted due to armor factors. For example, picture the attack dog training outfit that you always see on tv (basically a person in a giant marshmallow). The dogs are able to "grapple" that person, but the jaw isn't biting through the "armor". That's what's going on here too. Just because you're gripping the target doesn't mean that you'll bite through the armor.
That said... the attack roll for the Bite should be made without a shield bonus or dex bonus to AC. I know that the grapple condition gives the target a -4 to dex to begin with, but if you're gripping them, they can't dodge...
I see your point (and agree that seems to be the way the rules are described) I just can't bring myself to see how it works logically.
So if a Lion uses Grab (from his bite), even though he's got you in his jaws and can move you against your will, he can't apply more bite pressure to do additional damage (even though he's already bitten you hard enough to hurt, a condition of the grab)....
However, he can choose to "do damage" as part of his maintaining the grapple, which allows him to make a bite "attack" (despite the whole you being in his jaws thing) -- which he could theoretically miss even though he's already biting down on you and missing would imply the grapple is now broken?
At this point, I think it would be more logical (though I am loathe to say it) to rule that the bite is maintaining the grapple and a lion who's got prey in his jaws is restricted to his claw/rake attacks -- though I would think he gets all 4, since otherwise one of his front paws is suddenly unable to do anything even if he can bring both his rear paws into the equation. Though that doesn't seem to be what's supported in the rules.
~stuff~
It still works logically. The lion is biting down on the armored...arm...of his target. The target is unable to break out of the grip, but the armor is saving him from taking any damage from the bite at that moment. The lion attempts to bite down harder and the armor stops the bite, but the grapple is maintained since the lion is still gripping with its mouth. Since the lion is choosing to do damage in the grapple, it can do 2 free claw attacks (rake) against the grappled target.
The lion should definitely not get all 4 claw attacks while maintaining a grapple. The only physical way that it could possibly maintain a grip with its mouth and hit with each of its paws individually would be if the target was prone. The lion needs its back legs to support its weight while it swings with the front paws.
In our campaigns we treat "rake" as an attack, just like "bite" or "claw". So a pouncing cat gets a "bite", two "claws" and two "rakes." Weapon focus "claw" would give you bonuses to two "claw" attacks, and Weapon focus "rake" would give you bonuses to two "rake" attacks.
That's how we've always applied it.
I'm sorry to rez this thread but as a new 5th level owner of a lion animal companion, can someone please answer this/simplify it?
I'm having trouble enough figuring out whether my lion has any penalties to hit, or gets to attack with all three at full bonus and strength...
Your Lion has three primary attacks. You use all of them whenever the lion makes a full attack. Each of them uses full BaB + Str bonus to hit, and uses str bonus on damage.