My personal re-imagining of the Swashbuckler. R&R as you like.
It's up on Google docs, in PDF form. The upload reformatted some letters to look funky, but the text is otherwise as I wrote it.
The class includes a lot of my favourite movement related features of past editions and Pathfinder alike. It is thought to be a one-handed fighter, although the class features leave space for some variations on that theme.
My personal re-imagining of the Swashbuckler. R&R as you like.
I'm not someone who's very good at evaluating whether or not a class' mechanics are good, bad, or ugly. I'm more of a "flavor" kinda guy. I like what I see here; it would probably be a fun class to play.
I too like the flavor, but it seems very strong. For one thing, it gets all of a rogue's nice defensive abilities, plus more, while still getting a fighter's hit points. It seems 'just better than' a fighter in a lot of ways; obviously, it can't do everything a fighter can do, and it's less flexible, but it gets tons of abilities, full HD&BAB, 2 good saves, and twice as many skill ranks as the fighter. I think I'd be a lot less wary in general if it got 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice, but this is all armchair criticism, so take it with a grain of salt.
Also, the PDF looks nice--Good on that :)
Thanks for sharing!
I too like the flavor, but it seems very strong. For one thing, it gets all of a rogue's nice defensive abilities, plus more, while still getting a fighter's hit points. It seems 'just better than' a fighter in a lot of ways; obviously, it can't do everything a fighter can do, and it's less flexible, but it gets tons of abilities, full HD&BAB, 2 good saves, and twice as many skill ranks as the fighter. I think I'd be a lot less wary in general if it got 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice, but this is all armchair criticism, so take it with a grain of salt.
Also, the PDF looks nice--Good on that :)
Thanks for sharing!
The Fighter will still outfight the class on a general level. I tried to solve any discrepancies in damage output and to-hit numbers with limiting the class to one one-handed weapons and staggering the to-hit increase. Also the class cannot use Power Attack with Dashing Strike and Daring Strike.
While I took the Fighter as a baseline on damage output and to-hit numbers, I admit that I looked to other classes for comparable skill point numbers and the like. The Ranger compares best to the Swashbuckler in that case, I think.
And thanks for the praise... the PDF was simply converted with Word 2007, so I think the accolades need to go 50% towards the program. ;)
Haha, I forgot about the ranger. Sooo broken :P
I kid, I kid. Anyway, get some other people's opinions. I'm interested in what others have to say on the balance as well.
I like a lot of this, but two big thoughts.
1: A lot of classes in PF lean towards a higher degree of customizability: Cavalier Orders, Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, Ranger Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain AND Combat Style, so on and so forth. I'd love to see this class with a "Swashbuckler Talents"-style ability (maybe with a better name) to match that and to allow for a greater diversity of builds.
2: Daring Strike is uh... wow. I get that you're trying to encourage a certain playstyle that isn't often used, but that mechanic doesn't feel like the way to do it. I'd rather just make it a flat Int or Cha to damage, up to a max of the character's level, personally. Having it equal to level seems far too powerful to me.
1.) The bonus feats at third and eight level are there to give some customizability. Adding in ( or substituting ) another whole chain of abilities would change the class substantially. I actually want this to be a specialized agility fighting class. :)
2.) Restricting it to one one-handed weapon and completely negating the use of Power Attack levels out the damage profile in comparison to a Fighter. Believe me, I've done the charts. :) A normally built Fighter will outdamage the Swashbuckler.
I second this. Level to damage is really powerful, as it adds multipliable damage without any investment by the character. Imagine a character that has this with two weapon fighting using kukris. That is a lot of damage that can scale up very quickly with a high crit weapon. In addition, there does not seem to be any other limiting factor. All things appear to suck this damage down without limits or restrictions (no Rage rounds, no flanking required, no favored enemy, etc). It just seems off to me to have a character with a 10 str dealing 7d4 + 175 damage, with crtis moving that up probably closer to 10d4 + 210 or so.
When you combine that damage output potential with the extra AC, the defensive goodies (Uncanny Dodge/Imp Uncanny Dodge specifically), and the fighter hit dice just make this class look too good.
You cannot use two-weapon fighting with Daring/Dashing Strike. Well, you can, but you will not receive the bonuses on the off-hand attacks.
The class is thought as using one one-handed weapon exclusively. Also, no Power Attack allowed. I allowed two-weapon fighting as sort-of an option because one friend kept pointing out that having a defensive main-gauche in one hand was a very much used fighting style for fencing.
The class is thought as using one one-handed weapon exclusively. Also, no Power Attack allowed. I allowed two-weapon fighting as sort-of an option because one friend kept pointing out that having a defensive main-gauche in one hand was a very much used fighting style for fencing.
If it's defensive, couldn't you just give them a buckler (mechanically), treat it as a shield, but say that it looks and feels and weighs and costs like a light defensive blade? Being able to fight with two weapons in D&D does -not- improve your defensive capability, unless you take the Two-Weapon Defense feat...
The class is thought as using one one-handed weapon exclusively. Also, no Power Attack allowed. I allowed two-weapon fighting as sort-of an option because one friend kept pointing out that having a defensive main-gauche in one hand was a very much used fighting style for fencing.If it's defensive, couldn't you just give them a buckler (mechanically), treat it as a shield, but say that it looks and feels and weighs and costs like a light defensive blade? Being able to fight with two weapons in D&D does -not- improve your defensive capability, unless you take the Two-Weapon Defense feat...
I know that. :p But the guy is more a "style over rules" type of person and it made sense from a stylistic point of view. You can always make the off-hand dagger a Defending weapon, after all.
The Swashbuckler also has Buckler proficiency and can use it with Daring/Dashing Strike.
It took me some time to come up with a wording which would allow two-weapon fighting and still deny the Daring/Dashing Strike bonuses to the off-hand, believe me... ^^
Fair enough then, on both points. In that case I'll say we have a difference in design philosophy (not as a criticism, merely as a perfectly valid difference of opinion for different play styles), but you seem to have set out what you intended to accomplish - good job.
Thanks! :) I appreciate it.
Emphasis mine, but this seems to imply that as long as you are wielding a light weapon on your primary hand, you do get your level to damage with your off hand :)
Uh, which light melee weapons are not one-handed? ^^ Yeah, I see what you are saying, but that seems like excessive rules-lawyering. Which probably means that someone like Cartigan or Cirno would jump all over it, right? <sigh>
Uh, which light melee weapons are not one-handed? ^^ Yeah, I see what you are saying, but that seems like excessive rules-lawyering. Which probably means that someone like Cartigan or Cirno would jump all over it, right? <sigh>
Emphasis mine, but this seems to imply that as long as you are wielding a light weapon on your primary hand, you do get your level to damage with your off hand :)
The distinction between 'light' and 'one-handed' is, as it happens, very important (especially when we're talking about two-weapon fighting). Just say that you can only ever apply the bonus damage to attacks with your main-hand weapon, and bam, problem solved. :)
The distinction between 'light' and 'one-handed' is, as it happens, very important (especially when we're talking about two-weapon fighting). Just say that you can only ever apply the bonus damage to attacks with your main-hand weapon, and bam, problem solved. :)Uh, which light melee weapons are not one-handed? ^^ Yeah, I see what you are saying, but that seems like excessive rules-lawyering. Which probably means that someone like Cartigan or Cirno would jump all over it, right? <sigh>
Emphasis mine, but this seems to imply that as long as you are wielding a light weapon on your primary hand, you do get your level to damage with your off hand :)
Sounds reasonable. Hm. Would a two-handed weapon count as a "main hand" weapon? Just trying to avoid any more rules-lawyery problems. :p I could just as well change it to "light and one-handed melee weapons".
Sounds reasonable. Hm. Would a two-handed weapon count as a "main hand" weapon? Just trying to avoid any more rules-lawyery problems. :p I could just as well change it to "light and one-handed melee weapons".
I don't see a problem there. It's already limited to weapon-finesse-able weapons, and allowing a swashbuckler to daring strike with a spiked chain or elvish curved blade doesn't seem unreasonable. For the sake of streamlining/simplicity, I might reword daring & dashing strike as follows:
Daring Strike (Ex): At 1st level a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike daringly with a light melee weapon, as well as any weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse, adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. When making a daring strike with a one-handed weapon in her main hand, a swashbuckler cannot apply the damage bonus of this ability to attacks with an off-hand weapon or use a shield other than a buckler. This class feature cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat chain.
Dashing Strike (Ex): At 4th level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage due to her intimidating prowess. For every four levels in the Swashbuckler class, she may apply +1 of her Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on attack rolls with any light melee weapon, as well as any weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. When making a dashing strike with a one-handed weapon in her main hand, a swashbuckler cannot apply the to-hit bonus of this ability to attacks with an off-hand weapon or use a shield other than a buckler. This class feature cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat chain.
Daring Strike (Ex): At 1st level a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike daringly with any weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse, adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. If the swashbuckler is fighting with two weapons, she must choose which of her two weapons benefits from this increased damage. The swashbuckler may not use this class feature and the Power Attack feat chain in the same round.
Dashing Strike (Ex): At 4th level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage due to her intimidating prowess.* For every four swashbuckler levels, she may apply +1 of her Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on attack rolls with any weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse. A swashbuckler loses the benefits of this class feature when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. Additionally, if the swashbuckler is fighting with two weapons, she must choose which of her weapons benefits from this increased accuracy. The swashbuckler may not use this class feature and the Power Attack feat chain in the same round.
How does that sound? Simplified a bit.
*not sure 'where they deal greater damage' makes too much sense. How does this ability actually work? Is it pure panache that grants the swashbuckler increased accuracy? Is it a constant stream of witty remarks which put an opponent off guard?
Sounds reasonable. Hm. Would a two-handed weapon count as a "main hand" weapon? Just trying to avoid any more rules-lawyery problems. :p I could just as well change it to "light and one-handed melee weapons".I don't see a problem there. It's already limited to weapon-finesse-able weapons, and allowing a swashbuckler to daring strike with a spiked chain or elvish curved blade doesn't seem unreasonable. For the sake of streamlining/simplicity, I might reword daring & dashing strike as follows:
Thanks, but I like the more explicit wording. I'll update it to say light and one-handed weapons, though.
*not sure 'where they deal greater damage' makes too much sense. How does this ability actually work? Is it pure panache that grants the swashbuckler increased accuracy? Is it a constant stream of witty remarks which put an opponent off guard?
<shrug> Aura of Awesomeness. I can probably find a ton of things in other classes which don't make much sense. ;)
I like a lot of this, but two big thoughts.
1: A lot of classes in PF lean towards a higher degree of customizability: Cavalier Orders, Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, Ranger Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain AND Combat Style, so on and so forth. I'd love to see this class with a "Swashbuckler Talents"-style ability (maybe with a better name) to match that and to allow for a greater diversity of builds.
2: Daring Strike is uh... wow. I get that you're trying to encourage a certain playstyle that isn't often used, but that mechanic doesn't feel like the way to do it. I'd rather just make it a flat Int or Cha to damage, up to a max of the character's level, personally. Having it equal to level seems far too powerful to me.
Have to second these - I did a 'smart fighter' class once that was customizable to make a tactician, or a swashbuckler, or a sniper. You need something like that flexibility here.
Further, Daring strike needs to be 1/2 level, maximum. I would prefer it be based on intelligence, myself, too.
On the whole, though, a good effort!
Thanks, but I like the more explicit wording. I'll update it to say light and one-handed weapons, though.
'kaaaay
<shrug> Aura of Awesomeness. I can probably find a ton of things in other classes which don't make much sense. ;)
Well, yeah, sorry, I didn't mean 'realistic' sense per se. Just, 'where they deal greater damage' is hardly what the ability does. Since it's the difference between hitting or not hitting. That was my main gripe. Sorry if I was unclear!
Keep up the good work.
Oh, actually, one more bit of criticism is that I'd like to see some more actual daring/bravery/bravado features. Right now you have only one class feature based on Charisma, and it's a combat bonus to weapon accuracy. The swashbuckler rogue archetype gets a morale bonus to saves against fear, for instance. Any plans to include such things, or are you sticking exclusively to the dodge/acrobatics/fighting stuff?
Also this isn't going to be helpful at all but I was just mulling over 'Cha-based fighter' in my head and came up with cavalier. Could this potentially be a cavalier archetype? Swap some skills around, improve the reflex save, trade armor proficiencies for uncanny dodge and evasion, trade animal companion for dodge bonuses and acrobatics bonuses, trade charge abilities for movement abilities (fleet of foot, kip up, etc.). Toss in Weapon Finesse as a bonus 1st-level feat... challenge and banner both provide mechanically some of the same stuff a swashbuckler should have... and so on. And you could create one (or more?) new orders suitable to a swashbuckler type, though some of the existing orders make sense already (such as order of the cocktatrice). I think with a bit of reflavoring (banner could be something other than a banner, for instance), this could work quite well.
Ok brainfart over.
Have to second these - I did a 'smart fighter' class once that was customizable to make a tactician, or a swashbuckler, or a sniper. You need something like that flexibility here.
Further, Daring strike needs to be 1/2 level, maximum. I would prefer it be based on intelligence, myself, too.
On the whole, though, a good effort!
Again, I did the calculations, Daring Strike is fine. The lack of Power Attack and two-handed weapons/two-weapon fighting really balances things out. Dervish Dance is kind of an issue, but is mitigated by the AC loss. But thanks for the praise, nonetheless! :)
Oh, actually, one more bit of criticism is that I'd like to see some more actual daring/bravery/bravado features. Right now you have only one class feature based on Charisma, and it's a combat bonus to weapon accuracy. The swashbuckler rogue archetype gets a morale bonus to saves against fear, for instance. Any plans to include such things, or are you sticking exclusively to the dodge/acrobatics/fighting stuff?Also this isn't going to be helpful at all but I was just mulling over 'Cha-based fighter' in my head and came up with cavalier. Could this potentially be a cavalier archetype? Swap some skills around, improve the reflex save, trade armor proficiencies for uncanny dodge and evasion, trade animal companion for dodge bonuses and acrobatics bonuses, trade charge abilities for movement abilities (fleet of foot, kip up, etc.). Toss in Weapon Finesse as a bonus 1st-level feat... challenge and banner both provide mechanically some of the same stuff a swashbuckler should have... and so on. And you could create one (or more?) new orders suitable to a swashbuckler type, though some of the existing orders make sense already (such as order of the cocktatrice). I think with a bit of reflavoring (banner could be something other than a banner, for instance), this could work quite well.
Ok brainfart over.
Thanks, but I want the class to stand alone. And I personally dislike the Cavalier intensely as a class.
You are right that more abilities tied to Charisma would be interesting, but I don't want to limit the character too much to pushing the attribute. Some sort of anti-fear mechanic is out of the question for me, as the class is laden with abilities already and the bad will save is supposed to cancel out being so ability-heavy.
Maybe I just missed it but as far as I read the document, nothing prohibits the Swashbuckler from wearing heavy armory - could you add something like that? Swashbucklers should be a light armor wearing class.
Maybe I just missed it but as far as I read the document, nothing prohibits the Swashbuckler from wearing heavy armory - could you add something like that? Swashbucklers should be a light armor wearing class.
They do lose most of their class features in heavy armor (dashing strike, evasion, uncanny dodge...).
Again, I did the calculations, Daring Strike is fine. The lack of Power Attack and two-handed weapons/two-weapon fighting really balances things out. Dervish Dance is kind of an issue, but is mitigated by the AC loss. But thanks for the praise, nonetheless! :)Have to second these - I did a 'smart fighter' class once that was customizable to make a tactician, or a swashbuckler, or a sniper. You need something like that flexibility here.
Further, Daring strike needs to be 1/2 level, maximum. I would prefer it be based on intelligence, myself, too.
On the whole, though, a good effort!
I am not so sure it is fine. Compare it to the Precise Strike of the duelist, for example, that maxes out at +10. Fighters get +4 to hit and +4 damage from Weapon Training. Rangers get +8 to hit and +8 damage from favoured enemy, maximum.
The only comparable ability is Smite Evil, which grants +1 per level a limited number of times against specific foes only.
So yes, [b]definitely[/i] too powerful looked at that way. Just make it no AC loss and +1 per 2 levels and you have a balanced feature. Not being able to Power Attack is not a sufficiently big disadvantage - sure, you can't get bonus damage, but you will also not get any penalty to hit. There is no AC penalty in using this ability that I can see in fact it's more generous than Precise Strike which is capped at +10.
I am not so sure it is fine. Compare it to the Precise Strike of the duelist, for example, that maxes out at +10. Fighters get +4 to hit and +4 damage from Weapon Training. Rangers get +8 to hit and +8 damage from favoured enemy, maximum.
The only comparable ability is Smite Evil, which grants +1 per level a limited number of times against specific foes only.
So yes, definitely too powerful looked at that way. Just make it no AC loss and +1 per 2 levels and you have a balanced feature. Not being able to Power Attack is not a sufficiently big disadvantage - sure, you can't get bonus damage, but you will also not get any penalty to hit. There is no AC penalty in using this ability that I can see in fact it's more generous than Precise Strike which is capped at +10.
Precise Strike is capped at +10 because the Duelist only goes to level 10. The ability is not too powerful. You seem to be disregarding the use of two-handed weapons or Power Attack ( or both at the same time ) completely, which most other melee classes will be doing. I compared the ability to a sword and board Fighter and the Fighter comes out ahead at every level, although to-hit numbers will be somewhat better for the Swashbuckler.
If you've done the math, maybe it would help if you posted some of it here?
Sure. I've done snapshots at level 4, 8, 12 and 16, with real basic equipment for both the Swashbuckler and Sword & Board Fighter. About the only thing which I found a bit irritating was that the Swashbuckler clearly overtook the S&B Fighter in AC at the highest levels, but ultimately that is what happens everytime between armor based and dexterity based builds in the endgame.
Here goes, I hope it formats right:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 14
Level 4:
AB: +7
Damage: 1d6+3 (18-20/x2)
AC: 20
Equipment: Rapier +1, Chain Shirt +1, Buckler +1, other stuff
Feats: Weapon Focus
Level 8
AB: +18/+13
Damage: 1d6+10 (15-20/x2)
AC: 26
Equipment: Rapier +2, Mithral Chain Shirt +2, Buckler +2, Ring of Protection +1, Belt of Dexterity +2, other stuff
Feats: Weapon Focus
Level 12
AB: +25/+20/+15
Damage: 1d6+15 (15-20/x2)
AC: 33
Equipment: Rapier +3, Mithral Chain Shirt +3, Buckler +3, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Dexterity +4, Headband of Charisma +4, other stuff
Feats: Weapon Focus
Level 16
AB: +34/+29/+24/+19
Damage: 1d6+21 (15-20/x2)
AC: 48
Equipment: Rapier +5, Celestial Armor +5, Buckler +5, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Belt of Dexterity +6, Headband of Charisma +6, other stuff
Feats: Weapon Focus
Sword/Board Fighter:
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 10
Level 4:
AB: +8
Damage: 1d8+10 (19-20/x3)
AC: 24
Equipment: Falcata +1, Full Plate +1, Large Steel Shield +1, other stuff
Feats: EWP: Falcata, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Furious Focus
Level 8
AB: +18/+10
Damage: 1d8+16 (17-20/x3)
AC: 27
Equipment: Falcata +2, Full Plate+2, Large Steel Shield+2, Ring of Protection +1, Belt of Strength +2 other stuff
Feats: EWP: Falcata, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus
Level 12
AB: +25/+16/+11
Damage: 1d8+23 (17-20/x3)
AC: 33
Equipment: Falcata +3, Full Plate +3, Large Steel Shield +3, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Might ( Strength +4, Dexterity +2 ), other stuff
Feats: EWP: Falcata, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
Level 16
AB: + 34 /+24/+19/+14
Damage: 1d8+ 27
AC: 43
Equipment: Falcata +5 Full Plate +5, Large Steel Shield +5, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Belt of Physical Might ( Strength +6, Dexterity +6 ), other stuff
Feats: EWP: Falcata, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
Ouph.
Against a CR 15 adult gold dragon, the L16 swashbuckler will hit on average 3 times/round while the L16 fighter will hit on average 2 times/round. So the swashbuckler is doing 3(3.5+21), or 73.5 damage per round, while the fighter is doing 2(4.5+27), or 63.5 damage per round. Seems like the swash is outclassing the fighter on AC, DPS, all while having more class abilities (because the fighter burnt ALL his class abilities on his inferior AC and DPS, while the swashbuckler burned only a couple on them and got a bunch of cool acrobatic things).
Ouph.
Against a CR 15 adult gold dragon, the L16 swashbuckler will hit on average 3 times/round while the L16 fighter will hit on average 2 times/round. So the swashbuckler is doing 3(3.5+21), or 73.5 damage per round, while the fighter is doing 2(4.5+27), or 63.5 damage per round. Seems like the swash is outclassing the fighter on AC, DPS, all while having more class abilities (because the fighter burnt ALL his class abilities on his inferior AC and DPS, while the swashbuckler burned only a couple on them and got a bunch of cool acrobatic things).
Of course Dragons are on the upper AC scale of monsters, this is using very basic equipment for the appropiate level, there are no party buffs in play and again, this is an S&B Fighter, the one with the lowest normal damage output. This damage comparison isn't even taking into account that it's possible to go with the Shield Bash route.
The Fighter and every other class has various fighting styles available to them and as such can up their damage output substantially, while the one-handed fighting style is the only one the Swashbuckler will have available to them. Ever.
Furthermore, the heavy focus on movement- and acrobatics-related class abilities puts the Swashbuckler into a niche territory, which is how I wanted the class to be.
The only thing I am somewhat worried is that the AC is coming in too high at the higher levels, but this will happen with every other dexterity based class when the high levels of WBL are reached. I think that maybe the Dodge Bonus of the Swashbuckler may stack up too good then.
You need to forbid Piranha Strike as well as Power Attack, since it does the same thing and has only Weapon Finesse as a prerquisite.
Thanks for the heads-up. Noted and will be added for the next version.
... Or just half the effect of that Daring Strike, and you don't need to worry about Power Attack or Piranha Strikes or any feat anyone dreams up ... just pointing out the obvious here, that you are throwing around patches and fixes to keep +1 per level, when a different factor of +1/2 level would take away the need for them.
And yes, precise Strike is capped at +10 ... not just because the class is a prestige class, but because that is a good place to cap it! I did some number crunching too and found that a fighter 10/duelist 10 can out damage a Power Attacking fighter 20 against a dragon by getting more hits in. Against a lower AC target, the fighter rules.
... Or just half the effect of that Daring Strike, and you don't need to worry about Power Attack or Piranha Strikes or any feat anyone dreams up ... just pointing out the obvious here, that you are throwing around patches and fixes to keep +1 per level, when a different factor of +1/2 level would take away the need for them.
It goes pretty much against my concept to have Power Attack-like feats to be a factor. This is an agility-based finesse fighter who does not need to be muscular and do power strikes.
And yes, precise Strike is capped at +10 ... not just because the class is a prestige class, but because that is a good place to cap it! I did some number crunching too and found that a fighter 10/duelist 10 can out damage a Power Attacking fighter 20 against a dragon by getting more hits in. Against a lower AC target, the fighter rules.
And how is that bad?
This class could be about 20% cooler. Change Daring strike ta half, add something to increase versatility, similar to rogue talents or rage powers, lets say level 3 and every 4 levels after, take out the bonus feats, change steady stance to 8th level to fill the gap. The talents could include some extra movement stuuf, charisma based abilities, luck based abilities, even one or two things stolen from the rogues...
Say, if you don't want to make these changes, would you mind if I reposted the class with these changes? I'll giveproper recognition to you as original author of course.
This class could be about 20% cooler. Change Daring strike ta half, add something to increase versatility, similar to rogue talents or rage powers, lets say level 3 and every 4 levels after, take out the bonus feats, change steady stance to 8th level to fill the gap. The talents could include some extra movement stuuf, charisma based abilities, luck based abilities, even one or two things stolen from the rogues...
Say, if you don't want to make these changes, would you mind if I reposted the class with these changes? I'll giveproper recognition to you as original author of course.
Hey, go ahead, maybe I'll like your version better than mine. :p It's all fan-made, anyway.
... Or just half the effect of that Daring Strike, and you don't need to worry about Power Attack or Piranha Strikes or any feat anyone dreams up ... just pointing out the obvious here, that you are throwing around patches and fixes to keep +1 per level, when a different factor of +1/2 level would take away the need for them.It goes pretty much against my concept to have Power Attack-like feats to be a factor. This is an agility-based finesse fighter who does not need to be muscular and do power strikes.
Unfortunately, Power Attack is now usable with finesse weapons. SO who wouldn't use it? Well actually, it's not a hot idea to use both PA and Combat Expertise, the penalty to hit gets severe. It's a self-limiting factor and allows you to make choices between going all out attack or all out defence - and why not?
And yes, precise Strike is capped at +10 ... not just because the class is a prestige class, but because that is a good place to cap it! I did some number crunching too and found that a fighter 10/duelist 10 can out damage a Power Attacking fighter 20 against a dragon by getting more hits in. Against a lower AC target, the fighter rules.And how is that bad?
Because you double that damage bonus and you rule everything? And that's a circumstance we want to avoid.
Unfortunately, Power Attack is now usable with finesse weapons. SO who wouldn't use it? Well actually, it's not a hot idea to use both PA and Combat Expertise, the penalty to hit gets severe. It's a self-limiting factor and allows you to make choices between going all out attack or all out defence - and why not?
---
Because you double that damage bonus and you rule everything? And that's a circumstance we want to avoid.
And that's why I take out Power Attack as a usable option for this class, so that the level-to-damage ability cannot be enhanced by the usual melee damage pumping methods. Therefore balancing it.
Thank you! Should have it ready around late monday. Will post a link here fr those following this thread.
Thank you! Should have it ready around late monday. Will post a link here fr those following this thread.
Of course I'll reverse-engineer anything awesome into my version. :p
Here's a slightly updated version of the Swashbuckler, incorporating things like the light/one-handed weapon and Piranha Strike issue.
And no, Daring Strike stayed as it is.
Ouph.
Against a CR 15 adult gold dragon, the L16 swashbuckler will hit on average 3 times/round while the L16 fighter will hit on average 2 times/round. So the swashbuckler is doing 3(3.5+21), or 73.5 damage per round, while the fighter is doing 2(4.5+27), or 63.5 damage per round. Seems like the swash is outclassing the fighter on AC, DPS, all while having more class abilities (because the fighter burnt ALL his class abilities on his inferior AC and DPS, while the swashbuckler burned only a couple on them and got a bunch of cool acrobatic things).
Oh, and since this has been bugging me for some time, a little "in context" comparison between that one full attack a 16th level Fighter and Swashbuckler would do on the Gold Dragon ( what did that poor LG thing ever do to them? ).
We'll take the Fighter and give him Boots of Speed, so that he is hasted. This ups his attack count by one, also ups his attack by one, giving him an AB of: +35/+35/+25/+20/+15
He full attacks the Gold Dragon, we'll take a die result of 10/11/10/11/10. Results: 45/46/35/31/25, four hits.
Damage: 1d8+28 ; let's assume one critical hit, resulting in 32,5 x 6 for the Falcata. End result: 195 Damage in one round.
Now, let's go with the Swashbuckler. Also with Boots of Speed.
AB: +35/+35/+30/+25/+20
Die results: 45/46/40/36/30, five whole hits!
Damage: 1d6+21 ; Let's be generous and assume two critical strikes, due to the higher crit range. 24,5 x 7 ends up with a result of 171.5 Damage in one round. Hey, that's less than the Sword&Board Fighter, the one with the lowest DPR per round of the possible Fighter versions.
But wait, what would have happened without any critical hits? Let's see:
Fighter: 4 x 32,5 = 130 Damage
Swashbuckler: 5 x 24,5 = 122 Damage
Oh, my. Strange how adding in even the slightest bonus, which any melee worth his salt should have, puts the Fighter on top of the Swashbuckler. And that's before any buffs by Clerics, Bards and the like, or flanking, which his Swashbuckler buddy is uniquely equipped to provide, since he is so good at Acrobatics that he can even tumble around one of those nasty giant critters.
And so that I don't get "but you only tested this on one CR", here's one-round of full attack comparisons for levels 4, 8 and 12, too.
Level 4-> Opponent: Ogre ( AC 17 )
Fighter: AB +8, Damage 1d8+10
Average attack roll: 18, Result: Hit x 1
Damage: 14,5
Swashbuckler: AB +7, Damage 1d6+3
Average attack roll: 17, Result: Hit x 1
Damage: 6,5
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Level 8-> Opponent: Flesh Golem ( AC 20 )
Fighter: AB +18/+10, Damage 1d8+16
Average attack roll: 28/20, Result: Hit x2
Damage: 41
Swashbuckler: AB +18/+13, Damage 1d6+10
Average attack roll: 28/23, Result: Hit x2
Damage: 27
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Level 12-> Opponent: Hezrou ( AC 25 )
Added: Boots of Speed
Fighter: AB +26/+26/+17/+12, Damage 1d8+23
Average attack roll: 36/36/27/22, Result: Hit x3
Damage: 82,5
Swashbuckler: AB +26/+26/+21/+16, Damage 1d6+15
Average attack roll: 36/36/31/26, Result: Hit x4
Damage: 74
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Are people now convinced that the lowest DPR Fighter type still dominates the Swashbuckler in damage? Geeze.
Not sure where the extra point of damage is coming from (you went from 1d8+27 to 1d8+28 with the fighter), and to be fair you gave the furious focus bonus to both the fighter's first attack and his haste attack—which, while it doesn't matter here, could matter in other scenarios—but I do see your maths.
Also, your swash build at least seems kind of unoptimal; what would happen if you boosted the swashbuckler's strength a bit? He still gets STR bonus to damage. Belt of STR +2 is only 4,000 gp, a wash by level 16, and would increase his damage/hit by 1.
Now, without critical hits, adjusting for str +2 on the swash and removing the erroneous +1 damage on the fighter's attacks (like I said, in your previous post it was 1d8+27), you have:
L16 Fighter: 126
L16 Swash: 127
So no, the swash is not outclassed by the fighter.
Then again, looking back at your stat blocks, I'm finding some errors (like that the L4 swash should have an AB of +10[3dex+4bab+1dashingstrike+1focus+1enhancement], not +7; damage should be 1d6+5, not 1d6+3, etc. etc.) so the whole thing is becoming kinda moot imho. :P
short answer not convinced, needs accurate stats :\
Oh, and since this has been bugging me for some time, a little "in context" comparison between that one full attack a 16th level Fighter and Swashbuckler would do on the Gold Dragon ( what did that poor LG thing ever do to them? ).
Who says swashbucklers need to be good?
Also once your 10 rounds of haste wear off the 'context' is no longer the context.
Not sure where the extra point of damage is coming from (you went from 1d8+27 to 1d8+28 with the fighter), and to be fair you gave the furious focus bonus to both the fighter's first attack and his haste attack—which, while it doesn't matter here, could matter in other scenarios—but I do see your maths.
Also, your swash build at least seems kind of unoptimal; what would happen if you boosted the swashbuckler's strength a bit? He still gets STR bonus to damage. Belt of STR +2 is only 4,000 gp, a wash by level 16, and would increase his damage/hit by 1.
Now, without critical hits, adjusting for str +2 on the swash and removing the erroneous +1 damage on the fighter's attacks (like I said, in your previous post it was 1d8+27), you have:
L16 Fighter: 126
L16 Swash: 127So no, the swash is not outclassed by the fighter.
Then again, looking back at your stat blocks, I'm finding some errors (like that the L4 swash should have an AB of +10[3dex+4bab+1dashingstrike+1focus+1enhancement], not +7; damage should be 1d6+5, not 1d6+3, etc. etc.) so the whole thing is becoming kinda moot imho. :P
short answer not convinced, needs accurate stats :\
Oh, and since this has been bugging me for some time, a little "in context" comparison between that one full attack a 16th level Fighter and Swashbuckler would do on the Gold Dragon ( what did that poor LG thing ever do to them? ).Who says swashbucklers need to be good?
Also once your 10 rounds of haste wear off the 'context' is no longer the context.
Minor stat block errors aside, the worst DPR Fighter build still outfights the standard DPR Swashbuckler build.
And once the Boots of Speed run out, the Wizard of the group might have to actually cast the spell. Boy, are we nitpicking now.
What exactly is the goal here? Make me nerf the Swashbuckler until it is worse in every aspect as the worst Fighter build?
No - just talking numbers. Hey, you know I like your swashbuckler :(
No - just talking numbers. Hey, you know I like your swashbuckler :(
It's getting awfully nit-picky out here. I haven't even compared the Swashbuckler to a Fighter ( let alone other, better class ) build which actually does really good damage.
Well, numbers bear out that the Swashbuckler is doing the following:
a.) Hit pretty reliably, even at high AC's, while doing decent damage
b.) Still not do as much damage as a Sword&Board Fighter against opponents of average AC for their level.
c.) Overtake the S&B Fighter at DPR when AC is higher than usual.
d.) Conversely lag behind substantially behind S&B Fighter DPR when AC's are low.
As such, the class is balanced, damage-wise, against the worst DPR spec the Fighter has.
What is still speaking for the class is
a.) It's flavor-wise fun to play
b.) It will still do decent damage most of the time, since it can reliably hit things.
c.) It has fun class abilities, for people who want to play a truly agility & charisma based melee class, in the vein of the Three Musketeers.
Things I might want to improve are not in the area of to-hit and damage numbers, but rather that the Dodge Bonus may be a bit too much at high levels and that there could be more variable abilities, something VM mercenario will probably take care of. ^^
To address some of the salient points of your critique of the damage comparison:
Not sure where the extra point of damage is coming from (you went from 1d8+27 to 1d8+28 with the fighter), and to be fair you gave the furious focus bonus to both the fighter's first attack and his haste attack—which, while it doesn't matter here, could matter in other scenarios—but I do see your maths.
The +28 was a copying error of mine. As was the Haste attack getting the initial attack bonus. The S&B Fighter still outfights the Swashbuckler.
Also, your swash build at least seems kind of unoptimal; what would happen if you boosted the swashbuckler's strength a bit? He still gets STR bonus to damage. Belt of STR +2 is only 4,000 gp, a wash by level 16, and would increase his damage/hit by 1.
Because putting points into Strength either means no more than CON 10 or no INT 13, which furthermore means no Combat Expertise, no Spring Attack, no Improved Disarm, no Whirlwind Attack.
And wasting 4.000 GP for one point of damage ( not to hit, the to-hit goes over Dexterity ) is not something I'd do. For carrying capacity purposes, we got Muleback Chords now.
Now, without critical hits, adjusting for str +2 on the swash and removing the erroneous +1 damage on the fighter's attacks (like I said, in your previous post it was 1d8+27), you have:
L16 Fighter: 126
L16 Swash: 127So no, the swash is not outclassed by the fighter.
Sure, if you build the Swashbuckler for all the damage you can get, you might, shockingly, do a bit more damage than a Sword&Board Fighter. In which area are you missing those 4.000 GP, though?
Then again, looking back at your stat blocks, I'm finding some errors (like that the L4 swash should have an AB of +10[3dex+4bab+1dashingstrike+1focus+1enhancement], not +7; damage should be 1d6+5, not 1d6+3, etc. etc.) so the whole thing is becoming kinda moot imho. :P
I'll re-check the stat blocks, to see if any further major errors crept in. <checks>
Okay, besides the errors you pointed out, the Fighter actually gains a bit to-hit at level 4, putting him at +9 ; he also gains +3 to damage at level 16 ( I forgot Weapon Training 3), putting him clearly above the Swashbuckler once again.
And here are stat blocks for level 20, as ludicrous as that is:
S&B Fighter Level 20
AB: +42/+31/+26/+21
Damage: 1d8+ 36
Swashbuckler Level 20
AB: +42/+37/+32/+27
Damage: 1d6+25 (15-20/x2)
DPR Comparison: Immolation Devil ( CR 19 ) -> AC 36 ;
Both combatants hasted
Fighter: 53/47/43/37/32 -> Four Hits, 40,5 Damage/hit ; 162 DPR
Swashbuckler: 53/53/48/43/38 -> Five Hits, 28,5 Damage/hit ; 142 DPR
So, the Fighter is still winning at level 20. What a surprise.
And that's why I take out Power Attack as a usable option for this class, so that the level-to-damage ability cannot be enhanced by the usual melee damage pumping methods. Therefore balancing it.Unfortunately, Power Attack is now usable with finesse weapons. SO who wouldn't use it? Well actually, it's not a hot idea to use both PA and Combat Expertise, the penalty to hit gets severe. It's a self-limiting factor and allows you to make choices between going all out attack or all out defence - and why not?
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Because you double that damage bonus and you rule everything? And that's a circumstance we want to avoid.
That isn't going to make any difference - the numbers I crunched were assuming that the fighter/duelist wasn't using Power Attack either. While his damage bonus wasn't as huge, he was scoring more damage against level-appropriate CR foes because without Power Attack the fighter was hitting but not delivering the damage, with it they were delivering the damage without the accuracy to connect often enough.
That isn't going to make any difference - the numbers I crunched were assuming that the fighter/duelist wasn't using Power Attack either. While his damage bonus wasn't as huge, he was scoring more damage against level-appropriate CR foes because without Power Attack the fighter was hitting but not delivering the damage, with it they were delivering the damage without the accuracy to connect often enough.And that's why I take out Power Attack as a usable option for this class, so that the level-to-damage ability cannot be enhanced by the usual melee damage pumping methods. Therefore balancing it.Unfortunately, Power Attack is now usable with finesse weapons. SO who wouldn't use it? Well actually, it's not a hot idea to use both PA and Combat Expertise, the penalty to hit gets severe. It's a self-limiting factor and allows you to make choices between going all out attack or all out defence - and why not?
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Because you double that damage bonus and you rule everything? And that's a circumstance we want to avoid.
I honestly don't have an idea what you are talking about currently.
I honestly don't have an idea what you are talking about currently.
When I get five minutes I'll dig out the stats that I used and post them up here, and we can also plug in your swashbuckler and see how he sizes up. I think I'm using different assumptions than you on the builds of the classes - not saying either are wrong, but when you test something the more data, the better.