Hey all,
I'm building a lvl. 9 Fighter who uses a Falcata (I bought the feat for it) with the Keen property and Critical Focus for a "crit-fishing" build. I'd like to ask for input from anyone who has tried this type of build before (I'm sure many people have), were you happy with the results?
At first glance the benefits seem pretty good to me: Keen Falcata gives me a crit range of 17-20 with x3 dmg. With the confirmation bonus from Critical Focus I think I could tear some fools up. In addition, at higher lvls I was planning to invest in some critical feats (blinding, bleeding, critical mastery, etc.) to maximize this potential.
Is this a good idea or am I missing some heavy drawbacks? I welcome any and all comments.
Thanks Paizo community!
This depends on your campaign and your dm. There are still things out there immune to critical hits, which would negate your concept. That and many dms make foritifcation armor standard equipment for many monsters. If you are facing mostly enemies vulnerable it can be awesome, and I would recommend taking a look at this 3rd party product The Genius Guide to Feats of Critical Combat for some additional options related around crits.
Also as a 9th level fighter i would recommend you use a feat for improved critical and spend the enhancement on something not easily replicated with a feat instead of keen. I would also consider using a higher crit range weapon then the falcata. The x3 is nice, but if you are going to invest in crits its more important to be doing them more often, then it is to have the higher multiplier.
I would also consider using a higher crit range weapon then the falcata. The x3 is nice, but if you are going to invest in crits its more important to be doing them more often, then it is to have the higher multiplier.
+1
EDIT: Falchion comes readily to mind, that way you don't have to burn a feat to be proficient.
EDIT 2: Also don't forget the Anatomist trait.
I would also consider using a higher crit range weapon then the falcata. The x3 is nice, but if you are going to invest in crits its more important to be doing them more often, then it is to have the higher multiplier.+1
EDIT: Falchion comes readily to mind, that way you don't have to burn a feat to be proficient.
This is good feedback guys. Falchion is a 2H weapon isn't it? Sorry, I should have clarified from the beginning, the build I want is a shield user. Any good 1H weapons for crit fishing that ppl can recommend?
I don't mind burning a feat if I need to, so if there is another great exotic weapon for a crit focused build, I'd love to hear about it.
well the obvious answer is the rapier, or the scimitar, for one handed criting those are the way to go.
well the obvious answer is the rapier, or the scimitar, for one handed criting those are the way to go.
Duh, I feel stupid for forgetting those. Also don't forget my second edit re: the Anatomist trait.
well the obvious answer is the rapier, or the scimitar, for one handed criting those are the way to go.Duh, I feel stupid for forgetting those. Also don't forget my second edit re: the Anatomist trait.
Anatomist trait... ooooh very cool. I did overlook that, actually.
15-20/x4 is better.
And you can totally get that. Sort of.
You need leadership, and your cohort needs to take Combat Expertise, Butterfly Sting and a couple of +1 keen kukris. For good measure, boots of speed and of course all the TWF feats.
You take a scythe.
Make the cohort delay until just before you. Let him attack the enemy until he gets a crit with one of his 15-20 weapons and give the crit to you to hack him apart with your scythe.
And yes, that's Fromage Royale. But it's legal according to RAW and there's nothing you can do about it. :D
15-20/x4 is better.
And you can totally get that. Sort of.
** spoiler omitted **
Lol, thanks Kaeyoss, but my GM is a pretty cool guy, I have no desire to do THAT to him.
While I rather detest the Falcata for it's stats, I would agree it's the best weapon for what you're aiming for. Far superior to a scimitar or rapier.
Agree with others that a +2 Falcata and Improved Crit is better than +1,Keen Falcata and Greater Weapon Focus.
Sounds like a fun character!
15-20/x4 is better.
And you can totally get that. Sort of.
** spoiler omitted **
What's butterfly sting and where might I find it?
Are you Sword/Shield TWF? Crit Focused becomes harder in that style because the TWF/shield tree is huge. You may not have room for everything.
2 handing a falchion? yes.
2 Wpn fighting Kukri? yes.
but TWF Sword/Shield can stretch a fighter for crit feats as well (especially when the shield's threat range sucks).
If you have room go with Scimitar, staggering Crit and bashing finish.
if you don't have room, consider Dazing assault.
@ STR Ranger: no TWF here, just a sword and board build with some critical focus.
@ Majuba: is there something in particular about the Falcata stats that you detest?
@ Jaryn Wildmane: do you happen to recall the name of that sword?
@ everyone else: I do have a question, a Falcata has a normal crit range of 19-20. If I take Improved Critical, does that make it 18-20, or 17-20?
Thanks all!
@ STR Ranger: no TWF here, just a sword and board build with some critical focus.@ Majuba: is there something in particular about the Falcata stats that you detest?
@ Jaryn Wildmane: do you happen to recall the name of that sword?
@ everyone else: I do have a question, a Falcata has a normal crit range of 19-20. If I take Improved Critical, does that make it 18-20, or 17-20?
Thanks all!
1)You are aware that you are really gimping your damage for a couple of AC points? I am not saying don't do it, i am just saying that you should be aware of what you are trying to do.
2)the one handed melee weapon (which can always be held in two hands) that has a threat range of 19-20/x33)I think that he means the aldori dueling sword, it's a type of sword that is traditionally used by the swordlord's of Restov.
4)The falcata with improved critical goes to 17-20/x3. Which essentially means that (when compared to a keen scimitar) that you are lowering your chance to crit by 10% but you are upping your damage on a critical hit by 50%.
What's butterfly sting and where might I find it?15-20/x4 is better.
And you can totally get that. Sort of.
** spoiler omitted **
Butterfly’s Sting (Critical)You can forgo a critical hit in order to pass it on to an ally.
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
It is in Faiths of Purity.
What's butterfly sting and where might I find it?15-20/x4 is better.
And you can totally get that. Sort of.
** spoiler omitted **
It is in Faiths of Purity.
Butterfly’s Sting (Critical)You can forgo a critical hit in order to pass it on to an ally.
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
That is a totally awesome feat for a twinScimitar or Kukri fighter or ranger.
With those weapons said char can get around 2 Crits in a round regularly.Keep one to lay your Staggering or Blinding crit on him and give the other to a 2handed masher buddy. Nice.
4)The falcata with improved critical goes to 17-20/x3. Which essentially means that (when compared to a keen scimitar) that you are lowering your chance to crit by 10% but you are upping your damage on a critical hit by 50%.
A Critical Focus tree fighter is shining not in how much extra damage he does, but in all the other nasty conditions he adds on to the crit -- bleeding, blinded, staggered.... You want to increase the odds of getting a critical, so that you're adding more and more of those conditions, or compounding one of them. That means a higher crit range x2 weapon is more desireable than a lower range/higher damage weapon. In addition, as has been pointed out, Rapiers and Scimitars are Martial, which frees up one more feat he can use somewhere else. One option is to put it into Weapon Finesse, make DEX his prime stat, drop the board, and go TWF with a rapier or scimitar and a Kukri in the offhand.
In addition, as has been pointed out, Rapiers and Scimitars are Martial, which frees up one more feat he can use somewhere else. One option is to put it into Weapon Finesse, make DEX his prime stat, drop the board, and go TWF with a rapier or scimitar and a Kukri in the offhand.
If one were to do this, it would be strictly sub-optimal. One is much better off fighting dual kukri to leverage weapon focus, spec, and greater versions if a fighter.
I really think it all depends on the character in question's role on his/her team. If the character is the primary fighter/damage dealer and is interested in maintaining the versatility of fighting either sword and board OR 2-handing the Falcata depending on situation then it is a very valid strategy. This is hypothetically considering a build that is STR primary, uses Power Attack and is only grabbing a few of the very best Critical feats to enhance an already strong weapon choice.
If all you are going for is laying down the crits/status effects, then going 2xKukri is going to be best, and would likely benefit from being a Dex-based build and possibly grabbing 4 levels of Rogue at some point.
What's butterfly sting and where might I find it?15-20/x4 is better.
And you can totally get that. Sort of.
** spoiler omitted **
It is in Faiths of Purity.
Butterfly’s Sting (Critical)You can forgo a critical hit in order to pass it on to an ally.
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
That is a totally awesome feat for a twinScimitar or Kukri fighter or ranger.
With those weapons said char can get around 2 Crits in a round regularly.Keep one to lay your Staggering or Blinding crit on him and give the other to a 2handed masher buddy. Nice.
It's also terrific for a Leader/Cohort pairing.
True. I am yet to meet a GM who allows Leadership though.
Don´t get too excited about Crits,
by the time pure Crit builds (i.e. normal dmg is mediocre) come into their own,
there´s alot more creatures with Crit immunity, and Fortification is affordable.
Not that it´s bad to pursue some Crit optimization, but good ol´ regular damage is nice too.
Don´t get too excited about Crits,
by the time pure Crit builds (i.e. normal dmg is mediocre) come into their own,
there´s alot more creatures with Crit immunity, and Fortification is affordable.
Not that it´s bad to pursue some Crit optimization, but good ol´ regular damage is nice too.
Good input, Quandary. After reading through all of these posts, I think this is why I want to go with Falcata rather than Scimitar, because 1d6 is just too low for normal damage. No matter how much I crit specialize, the majority of my attacks are not going to crit, so I feel I should still have a weapon that does at least 1d8 dmg. Also, I really like the "look" of the falcata, that's a mean looking blade, and I kinda want my guy to carry a distinctive weapon.
I dumped the keen property from my falcata and took the Improved Critical feat instead, thanks all for the advice!
I want to keep the shield because as you mentioned, I don't wanna go overboard on chasing crits. I still want a solid defense for my character, and solid normal damage output. After reading through all the pros/cons brought up in the posts above, I've decided I'm going to make the higher crit chance & damage the icing on the cake, not the entire focus of the character.
Can you give me some examples of the types of critters that have crit immunity? Something like a Golem or slime/ooze type of critter comes to mind. Are there others?
Besides what you mention, Elementals, Aberrant Sorcerors, Incorporeal Undead, Alchemist have an optional Crit Immunity/Resistance I believe, and anybody can have Fortification items like I said before. Probably other stuff I can´t remember, thought not THAT MUCH more. Don´t misunderstand, Crits are a big part of your damage, you just can´t rely on them always working. Whether you 2-Hand a scimitar or falcata or bastard sword isn´t THAT much in dmg, its more when people have 2WF builds based on high crit chance that you see a big difference when the target is crit immune.
Falcata with d8 is really just the bottom of where base dmg starts to matter, since d8 is 2d6 enlarged, while d6 enlarged is only d8 enlarged. 1d10/12/2d6 weapons will be even more impressive enlarged... And these same group of weapons are the only ones worthwhile to take Vital Strike for.
Good input, Quandary. After reading through all of these posts, I think this is why I want to go with Falcata rather than Scimitar, because 1d6 is just too low for normal damage. No matter how much I crit specialize, the majority of my attacks are not going to crit, so I feel I should still have a weapon that does at least 1d8 dmg. Also, I really like the "look" of the falcata, that's a mean looking blade, and I kinda want my guy to carry a distinctive weapon.
Choices. Scimitar means very likely to land criticals, and more prone to inflict conditions (or to trigger maneuvers, with the related feats in APG).
Falcata is more damage overall, decent chance to crit*.
Is not better or worse in this case, is just different.
And, what Quandary said about damage dice :)
* I think that overall is better Falcata, which I indeed consider TOO good, at least for THF.
I dumped the keen property from my falcata and took the Improved Critical feat instead, thanks all for the advice!
Good call. Now you just need to stock up on the single most indispensable magic item for you...a potion (an oil, actually).
Oil of bless weapon.
Few people know or remember the little known additional benefit of that spell (conveyed to your weapon by the oil):
"In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword." [note, it says magical effect, not effect granted by a feat, etc]
Now, against evil foes (which is just about every big bad you fight of consequence in an adventure), you auto confirm all crits. Sweet.
50gp a pop. Buy up a bunch. Smear on the love juice!
Key item for the crit build. I've run a crit build fighter with a falchion (wasnt using other books at the time) and this oil. Nasty. Hard to get past seeing the lame initial damage on paper (what self respecting fighter wants to be rolling d4s?), but boy oh boy do those auto-confirmed crits stack up.
Good call. Now you just need to stock up on the single most indispensable magic item for you...a potion (an oil, actually).
Oil of bless weapon.
Few people know or remember the little known additional benefit of that spell (conveyed to your weapon by the oil):
"In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword." [note, it says magical effect, not effect granted by a feat, etc]
Now, against evil foes (which is just about every big bad you fight of consequence in an adventure), you auto confirm all crits. Sweet.
50gp a pop. Buy up a bunch. Smear on the love juice!
Key item for the crit build. I've run a crit build fighter with a falchion (wasnt using other books at the time) and this oil. Nasty. Hard to get past seeing the lame initial damage on paper (what self respecting fighter wants to be rolling d4s?), but boy oh boy do those auto-confirmed crits stack up.
I used this to devastating effect playing an elven paladin in our RotR game. Elven curve blade + Improved critical + Staggering critical + Smite Evil = massive damage and a frustrated GM.
Missed the oil. Where?
whats the duration?
I dumped the keen property from my falcata and took the Improved Critical feat instead, thanks all for the advice!Good call. Now you just need to stock up on the single most indispensable magic item for you...a potion (an oil, actually).
Oil of bless weapon.
Few people know or remember the little known additional benefit of that spell (conveyed to your weapon by the oil):
"In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword." [note, it says magical effect, not effect granted by a feat, etc]
Now, against evil foes (which is just about every big bad you fight of consequence in an adventure), you auto confirm all crits. Sweet.
50gp a pop. Buy up a bunch. Smear on the love juice!
Key item for the crit build. I've run a crit build fighter with a falchion (wasnt using other books at the time) and this oil. Nasty. Hard to get past seeing the lame initial damage on paper (what self respecting fighter wants to be rolling d4s?), but boy oh boy do those auto-confirmed crits stack up.
That's awesome Clark, what book is that in?
lol.
I think he, like me, was referring to having it as an oil.
@ Jaryn Wildmane: do you happen to recall the name of that sword?It's the urumi. One-handed exotic, 1d8, 18-20/x2. with Improved Crit or keen, that kicks up to 17-20/x2. (Been thinking about one for a half-elf magus...)
Ehmm...
When a weapon that has 18-20 threat range is made keen then the thread becomes 15-20.
That's awesome Clark, what book is that in?
Core rule book. And its been in D&D since 3E.Its just that very few people know of it.
Its a 1st level paladin spell. The 3E DMG lists it as 100gp
but the Pathfinder core rulebook says 1st level paladin spells made into oils are 50gp.
Clark
|
I dumped the keen property from my falcata and took the Improved Critical feat instead, thanks all for the advice!Good call. Now you just need to stock up on the single most indispensable magic item for you...a potion (an oil, actually).
Oil of bless weapon.
Few people know or remember the little known additional benefit of that spell (conveyed to your weapon by the oil):
"In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword." [note, it says magical effect, not effect granted by a feat, etc]
Now, against evil foes (which is just about every big bad you fight of consequence in an adventure), you auto confirm all crits. Sweet.
50gp a pop. Buy up a bunch. Smear on the love juice!
Key item for the crit build. I've run a crit build fighter with a falchion (wasnt using other books at the time) and this oil. Nasty. Hard to get past seeing the lame initial damage on paper (what self respecting fighter wants to be rolling d4s?), but boy oh boy do those auto-confirmed crits stack up.
So many things I could say... but I will settle for ewww.
Besides what you mention, Elementals, Aberrant Sorcerors, Incorporeal Undead, Alchemist have an optional Crit Immunity/Resistance I believe, and anybody can have Fortification items like I said before. Probably other stuff I can´t remember, thought not THAT MUCH more. Don´t misunderstand, Crits are a big part of your damage, you just can´t rely on them always working. Whether you 2-Hand a scimitar or falcata or bastard sword isn´t THAT much in dmg, its more when people have 2WF builds based on high crit chance that you see a big difference when the target is crit immune.
After playing nearly all of kingmaker (now finishing 6th book), i have to say that there were only 4 encounters that you couldn't crit. 2 of them were elementals, one was a ghost* and one with oozes.
Those are 4 encounters at 5 and a half books, and i am pretty sure that this is the case with the other APs.So most of the time you shouldn't be having trouble with critical immunity.
*
I think the selection of the improved crit feat is across the board better than a keen weapon. As you know, over your adventuring career, weapons come and go, where as the feat is permanent. Plus, a keen weapon prevents the use of bless weapon. I think, in balance, it is better to have the feat and use bless weapon than to have a keen weapon.
So many things I could say... but I will settle for ewww.
DM, come on. How can you say that? ;) That's not ever what you say to me...
After reading through all of these posts, I think this is why I want to go with Falcata rather than Scimitar, because 1d6 is just too low for normal damage. No matter how much I crit specialize, the majority of my attacks are not going to crit, so I feel I should still have a weapon that does at least 1d8 dmg. Also, I really like the "look" of the falcata, that's a mean looking blade, and I kinda want my guy to carry a distinctive weapon.
I am assuming that you're asking for advice to be effective, not flavorful, because you have all the flavor worked out. You need to balance flavor and effectiveness in your own brain for your own table, but I've played DnD for 20 years, and without question the + at the end of your damage (vDz +X) is FAR, FAR more important than the die type (the Z in my previous line). DnD has ALWAYS rewarded more for the plus. In ADnD, the most effective character had the best plus. The same holds true for 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder. More dice will also be more effective than a single die, i.e. 2d4 is better than 1d8, because your damage will be 2-8 instead of 1-8.
Also, when I say the + at the end, I do not only mean Str (Which is way better two handed) but the conditions you apply. For a crit fighter, I'd use Elven Blade, Falchion, or Urumi for two handed (Falchion first), Kukri, Rapier, or Scimitar for one handed (Kukri had the lowest die).
After that, apply the conditions you have as often as you can. In my current game, I have a Falchion using Half Orc PC that blinded an elf in combat and stole his Elven blade. Did he have to blow a feat on a weapon that is ‘weaker’ than his? Yes, but it’s bad ass to see a Half Orc that obviously stole the +2 Keen weapon from a bad ass elf. Yes, that is double bad ass.
Some more Crit-Immune creatures: Aeons, Inevitables, Protean (50%), Elemental and Boreal BL Sorcerors, Blight Druids.
Paizo doesn´t go out of their way to make every AP heavy on these types of creatures (though look at their Katapesh AP),
but on a world-consistency basis, if you think full-Crit 2WF builds are uber-effective, then many fighter types are also going to go for the same thing... Meaning any combat-experienced caster is also likely to be aware of that fact, and be aware that summoning Elementals/Oozes/other Crit-Immune entities is an easy way to negate a 2WF-Crit Fighter´s effectiveness. Not to mention everybody at high level should be getting Fortification effects, ESPECIALLY when the status effect abilities start kicking in.
...I can just see Paizo selling ´Blessed Weapon Love Juice´... 8-P
I'm gonna resurrect this post, 'cos I wanted to build something similar.
Consider the Rodelero Duelist archetype, allows you to shield bash with a buckler(and other Falcata-Buckler effects). Then take Shield Master(no more annoying -1 on attacks) and Bashing Finish giving a free shield bash on a crit. This shield bash can be coupled with all sorts of effects and gives a different damage type as well.