I'm thinking about playing some melee/caster-hybrid soon. However I've only played one Pathfinder character so far and that was a Sorc. So, I have little to no idea how to build such a character.
Is there rule of thumb how much Strength a character should have to rely on it in melee combat (other than: "The more, the better!")?
I'm thinking about characters like Inquisitors, battle Clerics/Oracles or melee-focused Bards.
Starting with 18 seems a bit to much considering the MAD-ness of these classes. Would a Strength of 16 suffice? Should I go for 17 at level 1 and raise it to 18 as soon as possible? Could one make do with only 14?
And how about a character who wants to be in melee every now and then but doesn't really focus on it (support cleric or bard come to mind). For occasional hitting stuff, would 14 strength suffice? With a buff or two, of course.
On another note, is Power Attack worth using if you have only 3/4 BAB and use only a one-handed weapon + shield? The 1:3 ratio for 2handed weapons seems to be a no-brainer, but I'm not sure if 1:2 is still worth the feat investment and attack penalty.
Any advice from people with more melee experience would be appreciated.
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I'm thinking about playing some melee/caster-hybrid soon. However I've only played one Pathfinder character so far and that was a Sorc. So, I have little to no idea how to build such a character.
Is there rule of thumb how much Strength a character should have to rely on it in melee combat (other than: "The more, the better!")?
I'm thinking about characters like Inquisitors, battle Clerics/Oracles or melee-focused Bards.Starting with 18 seems a bit to much considering the MAD-ness of these classes. Would a Strength of 16 suffice? Should I go for 17 at level 1 and raise it to 18 as soon as possible? Could one make do with only 14?
And how about a character who wants to be in melee every now and then but doesn't really focus on it (support cleric or bard come to mind). For occasional hitting stuff, would 14 strength suffice? With a buff or two, of course.
On another note, is Power Attack worth using if you have only 3/4 BAB and use only a one-handed weapon + shield? The 1:3 ratio for 2handed weapons seems to be a no-brainer, but I'm not sure if 1:2 is still worth the feat investment and attack penalty.
Any advice from people with more melee experience would be appreciated.
First answer, Play an alchemist. You get a easily defined 3/4 bab arcane caster (with some divine spells to boot) with no spell failure chance, lower MAD (only need a starting into of 13 or better), and your extracts will easily put your strength where it needs to be for combat.
It also has a built in ranged combat that allows you to stay back and do significant damage without needing to beat your lower BAB against high AC creatures (bombs use touch AC to hit).
There's a lot of number crunching out there on when and when not to use power attack on this forum so do a search for power attack math and you'll get an answer for exactly when and when not to based on your stats at any given time.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Personally, I would use Weapon Finesse in such a situation, and here's why:
If you're a 3/4 BAB class, then some other things are probably also true about you:
1) You likely have limited armor proficiency (light for bards, light/medium for clerics, etc) which, if you're going to spend time in melee, makes DEX very important so you don't die.
2) You probably have no more than a d8 for your Hit Dice, and (given that you're straddling roles) not a lot of spare points to compensate with your CON. Thus, point #1 becomes even more important.
3) Depending on your specific class, you're likely to be casting rays (needing a ranged touch attack) and/or using a ranged weapon/class feature when you're not in melee. Thus, DEX becomes important once again.
Given the three points above, a semi-melee-oriented 3/4 BAB class really needs a good DEX. Since you (presumably) have limited resources for your stats and probably need another good score for your casting (unless you're a rogue, I suppose), you can't afford to have 3 high stats. This likely leaves you with a higher DEX than STR. Thus, for maximum reliability on your attacks, you take Weapon Finesse.
It really depends on how you view your character...
If you want to be "the fighter", you should put your strength first, and your casting stat second, or even third. If you want to be a caster who can do fairly well in melee (or ranged) you could split between str and casting. If you only want to melee once in a blue moon, it probably isn't even worth having better then a 10 or 12.
Here is the thing, being good in melee for a 3/4 base attack character (or multi-class) is an accumulation of sacrifices, the more you make, the better you are. Abilities, feats, domain/schools/spells/equipment, etc. It all adds up. There is also a law of "minimum requirements" in order to be effective at all. For example, if you are 10th level, and you only have 1 combat feat, and a 14 str, it just isn't worth swinging a sword. You are just better off getting some kind of wand and using that to attack.
Power Attack is your best friend when doing a buffed up fighting caster. However, you should be using a two handed weapon for offense and spells for defense. You will just do a LOT more damage that way.
Here is a thread I started that compares fighting bards, clerics, and eldritch knights, and gives some advice on low level buffs and stuff:
Bard vs Cleric vs EK
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What you can do is put 3 level in sorcerer then 2 levels in fighter to unlock the Dragon Disciple prestige class. If you invest 4 levels into Dragon Disciple (total level 9) you will get a bonus 1 Armor and 4 strength. After that you also meet the requirements to become an Eldritch Knight which would give you levels in fighter for the sake of Feats and levels in sorcerer for the sake of spells. Overall you will have a higher strength than most pure fighters and be casting spells at 3 levels lower than your total level.
When it comes to stats I would push for the 18 strength and then get +20 from being Human (or any other which provides a +2 bonus.) You won't much Charisma as this type of character would be better at melee than casting so you won't have many extra spells. 16 Dex would give you a nice +3 AC bonus to work with a Mithral Full Plate (arcane spell failure reduction.) The rest of your stats should be dumped in Con.
If you choose Human you will have a total of 5 feats at level 5 (1 for being human, level 1, level 3, level 5 and fighter) which will allow you to get arcane armor prof (which will later be improved for a 5% spell failure rate in Mithral Full Plate) and still get plenty of combat feats.
Thanks so far. However...
I think I need to clarify the intend of my post a bit.
1. I already have a specific character in mind (two actually, I'm still deciding between). I avoid details becaus I don't want to discuss builds, but the need for strength in general.
2. My character(s) are melee heavy, relying on strength for attack and damage, amplified by buffs. So no Weapon Finesse for me, sorry :)
3. I'm not asking for specific build details but more for experiences of players how much strength is needed to be able to play such a character effectively. My build - overall - is somewhat balanced. Imagine a Bard with 14 Charisma, decent Dex and Con (about 12-14 each), fighting with Longsword and Shield and you have a rough idea of what I'm thinking. How much strength would such a character need?
My character concept (and build) is about 90% done. I'm not sure about the ability scores, so I just want to know how much strength I can sacrfice without hurting my melee abilites too much.
Sounds real cool!
I'm going to say a 16 strength. Any less, and you just won't be doing enough damage. I would also recommend the arcane strike feat for a little extra damage.
My thought is to drop the dex just a little. Your best bet for avoiding attacks is probably mirror image or displacement.
Throw a few ranks in acrobatics, and you get a nice little bonus when fighting defensively or putting up a total defense. Also, UMD is important since bulls strength isn't on the bards spell list.
The bard was an example. Not (necessarily) one of my two mysterious character concepts ;D
There is no real answer to your question if you want people to base an answer on your concept without telling people your concept. You can of course always get away with less STR if that is in your concept.
Want more Hit and damage with melee? take a 16+ STR
You want to hit more but have other means of increasing damage (sneak attack, etc.) and are limited on attribute points? Take DEX and weapon finesse.
You want to do lots of damage? Build a character that has other means of increasing damage and give him/her 16+ STR anyway.
Generally melee chars should have 16+ Str. Lower is ok, if you have support tricks, but I usually count those as support characters. Weapon Finnesse builds are hard to make work and generally 3/4 chars are also feat starved. With lower attributes, you could take reach weapon & drop dex (or con) a bit.
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There is no real answer to your question if you want people to base an answer on your concept without telling people your concept. You can of course always get away with less STR if that is in your concept.
My problem basically boils down to "I want a very balanced character. How many ability points must I sacrifice for Strength to be effective in melee?"
You want to do lots of damage? Build a character that has other means of increasing damage and give him/her 16+ STR anyway.
This actually sounds like a very solid advice for my problem. Thanks :)
If it helps me get further advice, I'll post a build that's (very) close to what I'm looking at.
Human Battle Oracle (20 pt buy)
STR 16 (14+2 racial)
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 08
CHA 15
Gets Skill at Arms as 1st revelavion and takes one extra revelation for Weapon Mastery (Scimitar). Ignore the second feat (let's just say it's a non-combat feat like skill focus).
Basically, melee character who relies on his class abilities (revelations, buffs) to be effective in melee. Fights with a Scimitar and a shield.
So, here are my problems:
- I'm unsure about the ability scores. I don't want to sacrifice too much strength but not to much of my other abilites either. If I use buffs nearly all the time, look for flanking possibilites and so on, will 16 strength be enough?
- Power Attack with a one-handed weapon on a 3/4 BAB class (with buffing). Necessary? Needed? Too little damage? Too big attack penalty? Worth the feat investment?
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It depends on the level your adventure ends at. If your going for most melee focused with a 3/4 BAB. My group runs 15 point buy. Normaly my character start with a 17 Str. The games I play in normaly run to levels 14 to 17. And starting with a 17 gets you the most use out of your score from level range 12 to 16. You can start with a 16 but you will be one str mod lower then starting with a 17. And 2 lower then starting with a 19. Realy depends on point buy your using. Most classes that fit what your asking about are MAD. Starting point buy 15 (Str 17 is good) point buy 20-25 (Str 19 is better). Then it depends on the party make up.
For any of this type of charater using a reach weapon is not a bad idea. This will let you cast your spells with out AoO. And let the full melees in the party take most of the damage.
16 will be fine.
I always take power attack at some point, however if your starting at first lvl its not a question, since Power Attack has a pre-req of +1 BAB.
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You only need a minimum of 14, really. More than that is good, and 18 would be awesome, but your build looks fine as it is. I wouldn't say it's super-duper hyper optimized, but that's okay - it'll do what you want and I think you'll have fun.
EDIT: to address your recent question about Power Attack - it's worth it. Power attack is always worth it.
If you are even considering going the Dex / Weapon finesse route, you can take Dervish Dance and apply your Dex bonus to melee damage. You may have to burn a feat to gain proficiency with scimitar, and you need a couple ranks in perform as well. You should be able to massage your fluff to give you a reason to be a dervish dancer...or just take the feat for the damage and forget the fluff. The ability to dump Str can really boost your other ability scores, and a huge dex has tons of other benefits for such a character.
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I've played an Inquisitor at low levels and I built him pretty much as you described. He is a melee focused character with a high enough number in his casting stat to cast spells, but not really worry about DC's.
I started with an 18 in Str (16 + 2) and 14 in Wis. I found him to be very effective. Is a 16 or 17 okay too? Sure. I don't think it is a deal breaker to start with something less than what is considered optimal and still be effective. It depends on the makeup of your party too.
Your stats seem ok. I would put the 15 into Str or Con (before adding the +2 to Str, so start Str 16 or 17) and start pumping those while leveling. If you are casting buffs, Cha score doesn't matter so much. That is, if you can rely on having Cha booster before level 8. If you know your GM is miserly & doesn't have magic item shops, go for Cha.
Depending on what you want to do in melee, 16 Str is good enough. You offer flank to your allies anyway & can do some damage. In fact I think most iportant thing for melee chars is to tank = protect the 2nd line & not fall down. That is why I could consider raising Con. Con isn't great at start since it gives only 1HP, but gains imortance later, since it gets you more and more HPs & fort saves are important later. Usually Str is still way to go as melee chars.
Power attack is not necessary. Later you get more base damage from the weapon qualities (+1 Holy Mithral Scimitar with GMW), so the Power Attacks value drops. Mainly its for hitting easy targets & hitting through DR.
Lets assume 9 roll is needed to hit with the first attack without Power Attack, 11 with Power Attack.
Damage without PA: d6 (Scimitar) + 2d6 (Holy) + 2 (Enchatment) + 2 (DF) + 5 (Str) = 19,5
Damage with PA: d6 (Scimitar) + 2d6 (Holy) + 2 (Enchatment) + 2 (DF) + 5 (Str) + 4 (PA) = 23,5
Critical Damage without PA: 32
Critical Damage with PA: 40
DPR without PA: 12/20 (12,5 + 7) + 6/20*12/20*2*12,5 + 7/20 (12,5 +7) + 6/20*7/20*2*12,5 = 25,65
DPR with PA: 10/20 (16,5 + 7) + 6/20*10/20*2*16,5 + 5/20 (16,5 +7) + 5/20*5/20*2*16,5 = 24,64
So in this example case you'd better not use PA at all.
I agree with what most people have said in this thread, i also agree that a 16+ STR, after racial, is needed.
But i have to add that the sword and shield really requires a lot of feats to pull off (i am having trouble making a human fighter with sword and shield) and most of the classes with 3/4 BAB and spellcasting are quite feat starved. If you however are dead set on it i think that we can help you with feat selection.
Again: Thanks so far! :)
Guess I'll start with Str 16 and add points while gaining levels. Not every time, because I just hate to rely on magic items to perform basic tasks of my class (like casting a spell), but I'll end up with STR 18-19, I think. Might add to that 19 with a tome if I get the chance. We are playing a complete AP, so I expect to be around level 16 at the end.
I'm not too worried about my damage output. Sure, I want to contribute a bit, but it doesn't need to be the highest DPR in the party. As far as I know, the rest of the party are a barbarian, a paladin (weapon and shield) and a ranger (archer). So I fully expect to have the least damage output. Still, I want to hit and hurt stuff.
@Finwe: We are playing playing Core + APG only. Dervish Dance is not an option and I'm not sure I'd want to sacrifice the skillpoints (I'm starving there), feats and the shield. Still, thanks for the suggestion.
@Mofiddy: Starting with Str 18 is not an option. As I said, I'm skill-starved and want a balanced character overall. 15+2 racial would be the absolute maximum I can muster. An Inquisitor of mine with this concept would probably have stats like STR 17, DEX 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, CHA 7 or someting very similar.
@Riku: Your example shows what I'm afraid of. When I get many damage bonuses from various sources (which I can and will do), it might be far better to increase my chance to hit by not using PA instead of squeezing out those few extra points per attack from using it.
@leo1925: I don't really plan to invest many (if any) feats into the shield. It's just there to give additional AC. Might take Shield focus at some time, but even that's not too likely. Attaking with it or similar fancy things are not planned.
I should note that our GM allows spellcasting with weapon + heavy shield in hands, so I can get a reasonable AC boost without sacrificing any spellcasting abilities.
So I guess it basically boils down to "start with at least 16 strength and Power Attack can be nice if it's needed againt DR but might not be necesary overall". I think I still have a feat to spare on between levels 5 and 10. Might get Power Attack there. Just in case.
This thread is a great help. I think I'm on the right track now. But feel free to add any further advice you want to spare ;)
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Now for a bit of number crunching. If your starting with a 16 Str and you only adding two points to it. That puts you at a 18. One point went to even up your dex and one point for cha. In a AP and in golaren in genral you are not finding tomes. Unless your DM hase magic item shops and is very nice on what they have. With the tomes being CL 17 to craft and there are no npc casters that high of level in any of the books. It should be a task to find that kind of item in it self.
So at this point you have to use spells befor starting combat. Not somthing that can be done all the time.
Str 18+6item= Str24 +7Mod at level 16
BAB 12/7/2
Scimitar +5
Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus Scimitar
Total to hit bonus: +26/21/16
Total Damage bonus: +12
Ancient Black Dragon CR 16 AC38
Horned Devil (Cornugon) CR 16 AC35
Balor CR 20 AC36
Pit Fiend CR 20 AC38
So I'll hit a high AC enemy on a 12 or higher? That's actually not too bad consdering there are no buffs or flanking included. Even with only Divine Favor (or rather divine power at this level) I'll have more than 50% chance to hit. Still not too impressive, I know, but I can live wth that.
Especially considering that I'll have an AC of about 40 with shield of faith, a large shield, heavy armor, magic vestment and an amulet of natural armor. Even the CR 20 creatures will only have about 50% chance of acually hitting me.
I'm more conserned with the damage output. 1d6+12 doen't seem very much. But I guess buffs will help there, too. Probably don't need a +5 scimitar. I can just get a +1 Holy Scimitar and use Greater Magic Weapon. 1d6+11+2d6 is still nothing to write home about but at least those fiends will actually notice that I hit them.
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Now your just wasting spells. I play this type of character most of the time. Any thing past one round of buffing is a wast of actions. You will not have a AC40 all the time with out knowing a fight is coming. And rember one buff if you need more then one buff to make you combat effective you did somthing wrong. Becous of the drop in dpr becous you used 2 to 4 rounds to buff dose not work. Even if it's one min per level buff extened it's still only good for at most 3 encounters. Less if there far apart. And from there it depends on what AP your runing on whats best. BTW the first buff spell you should be casting is enlarge person on the full BAB melee in the group. Or at low levels bless. This hase a greater effect then any buff you can give your self.
General rules when makeing a 3/4 BAB melee support character.
1.) You don't have a full BAB. You need all the to hit bonus you can get.
2.) Don't wory about spell DC. Your casting stat will never be high enough past level 8 to keap up with the save progresion.
3.) How will you cast spells in a fight? 5ft step<reach weapons are the best two ways. reach weapon being the better of the two.
4.) How effective do I support the group? Bard= buffing and some healing, Cleric/Oracle = healing and some buffing,
Now your just wasting spells. I play this type of character most of the time. Any thing past one round of buffing is a wast of actions. You will not have a AC40 all the time with out knowing a fight is coming.
Well, I just did a quick AC-calculation without much thought of magic items. The only short term AC-Buff I added was Shield of Faith, which can be replaced by a Ring of Protection. With a ring and an amulet +3, I will have like 37 AC, even more if I invest more money and/or get AC from feats (dodge/shield focus). I don't think AC 40 is that hard to have nearly all day long at this level. Might be wrong, though.
IF it works out this way, however, I can use that one round buffing for offensive buffs (be that divine power, bless, enlarge person or whatever).BTW the first buff spell you should be casting is enlarge person on the full BAB melee in the group. Or at low levels bless. This hase a greater effect then any buff you can give your self.
This is actually a sound advice. Hadn't fully considered the party as a whole. Might still be able to get off a group and a personal buff in one round via Quicken (feat or rod). Especially Enlarge Person with its 1 rd casting time should probably be quickened.
1.) You don't have a full BAB. You need all the to hit bonus you can get.
That's true. It's why I wondered how much strength I'd need.
2.) Don't wory about spell DC. Your casting stat will never be high enough past level 8 to keap up with the save progresion.
I know. Wasn't planing on doing anything that requires saves.
3.) How will you cast spells in a fight? 5ft step<reach weapons are the best two ways. reach weapon being the better of the two.
Kinda figured I could cast low-ish level spells defensively without much trouble. Ideally I won't start the combat threatened by an enemies, so at least the initialy buffing should be affected by AoOs.
4.) How effective do I support the group? Bard= buffing and some healing, Cleric/Oracle = healing and some buffing,
Will have to think about this. I already have some group buffs, but you are probably right that buffing the full-BAB party members willl overall result in a much better party performance than buffing myself.
Hm... Many things I hadn't considered. Or at least not thorough enough. My party and I are still pretty new to Pathfinder. We only played some adventures so far: At first a short 3 adventure "path" (Crypt of the Everflame, Mask of the Living God and City of Golden Death) where I played my sorceress. And then a short interlude with a 10th level adventure which I GMed so our regular GM could get to see the other side of the screen. Learned much from those adventures, but I'm still theorycrafting without too much real experience. And that's why I have so many questions ^^
Actually, considering our physical focused party with little experience, I might bebetter off just playing a pure supporter/healer. That would probably be a Cleric, Oracle or Witch. But each and every one of those classes has something that makes me NOT want to play them. At least not in a pure supporting way. Hence my idea of playing a support/melee-hybrid.
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If it helps any...
If you're using one-handed weapons, then an extra 2 points of Strength is +1 to-hit, and +1 to damage or, with Power Attack, a flat +3 to damage (the +1 you normally get, and the +2 from using your normal +1 to-hit for +2 damage instead, via the Feat).
By way of comparison each step of a weapon's damage die type - 1d4 to 1d6 to 1d8 to 1d10 - is a +1 to average damage (not factoring in differences in the critical threat range and multiplier).
So, taking an extra 2 points of Strength and Power Attack could mean the same average difference as using a bastard sword instead of a dagger.
Whether that's important or not to your build is up to you.
If you were two-handing a weapon, then both Strength and Power Attack increase quite a bit in value (and you also get more out of hitting the even bonuses - like Str 14 for +2 and Str 18 +4 - due to the x1.5 damage bonus from two-handing and the general rule for the rounding down of halves).
Greetings, fellow travellers.
For me the ideas of the OP point in the direction of bard/dragon disciple.
*take the arcane duelist archetype for add. combat feats, e. g. Arcane Strike
There are some threads floating around discussing the concept in more details.
Ruyan.
The Oracle of battle will do better for a physical focused party then a suppoter healer. If your going for a support caster thow I recomend Witch(hedge witch). There level 4 power is spontanous cast cure spells. The Witch and be crowed control and healing. works well in a mostly combat group.
The (Hedge) Witch is actually another class I was thinking about. Problem is, we play with Core and APG only, so Hedge Witch would normally not be allowed. My GM is fine with me using the archetype as long as no one else in the group objects. And seeing how it'll keep them alive I don't think they will.
Oh, but the 8th level ability is horrible.What I don't like about the witch, however, is the spell list. I know it isn't meant to be as powerful as the wizard's list because the witch has her hexes. But the list has WAY too many Enchantment and Necromancy spells... Those are the schools I'd pick as opposed if I was playing a Wizard. I'm just not a big fan of these spells. But I guess I'll have to deal with it somehow. All things considered, the witch is probably the best choice. Arcane and divine magic all in one. Got plenty of skill points, too.
Now how do I convince the Paladin to not smite my Imp familiar...? ^^
@ProfPotts: That's an interesting way to look at it. Food for thought. Thanks!
@RuyanVe: Multiclassing is not an option for me. I know it has its uses but I like my character "pure". But thanks anyway :)
So, does someone have a good witch build at hand? ;D
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1.) Never ever take improved familier as a witch. When you change familiers you lose all your old spells and have to start over. With only the base spells you get.
2.) Healing patron is realy good if your dm will let you take it. Other then that Shadow, Trickery, and a few others out of the UM are nice to have.
3.) Max out your Int. It dose not matter what your other stats are.
4.) Scorpion, Greensting (Familiar), Personly I think this is one of the best familiers. +2 initiative is hard to pass up.
5.) Slumber and Evil Eye Hex. The Major Hex Hag's Eye.
Spells.
2nd level: Hold Person, Web are the two low levels spells you will get alot of use out of.
4th level: Black Tentacles, Charm Monster are the next you that make a big difrence.
With web, black tentacles, and charm monster there are not meny encounters at any level. Where you can't fix the fight in your favor.
1.) Never ever take improved familier as a witch. When you change familiers you lose all your old spells and have to start over. With only the base spells you get.
Yeah, by RAW this sucks. But I actually had discussed this with my GM some time ago. He would let me carry over my spells to a new familiar if I give up the old one (instad of having it killed). But with the lost of 2 Hexes because of the archetype, Extra Hex suddenly seems way more attractive. I'm not sure I can spare the feat for an Improved Familiar...
2.) Healing patron is realy good if your dm will let you take it. Other then that Shadow, Trickery, and a few others out of the UM are nice to have.
Healing would be my first choice, too. GM agrees, again only if nobody else objects. If they do, I'll go with shadow.
3.) Max out your Int. It dose not matter what your other stats are.
Totally agree. Will start with INT 20. Wouldn't have it any other way. Int is more important for a witch than even for a Wizard.
4.) Scorpion, Greensting (Familiar), Personly I think this is one of the best familiers. +2 initiative is hard to pass up.
Well the Compsognatus familiar from Bestiary 2 has +4 Initiative. But I'll still go with the Scorpion. Better fit for a Witch and the AP's setting.
5.) Slumber and Evil Eye Hex. The Major Hex Hag's Eye.
Slumber and Evil Eye are no-brainer. Not so sure about Hag's Eye, though. Witch already has countless divination spells ncluding arcane eye. But I'll keep the Hex in mind.
2nd level: Hold Person, Web are the two low levels spells you will get alot of use out of.
4th level: Black Tentacles, Charm Monster are the next you that make a big difrence.
Love these conjuration spells. The Enchantments... not so much. But I'll still use them becuase a Witch without that kind of spell would be strange.
Thanks again, calagnar :)
1.) Never ever take improved familier as a witch. When you change familiers you lose all your old spells and have to start over. With only the base spells you get.Yeah, by RAW this sucks. But I actually had discussed this with my GM some time ago. He would let me carry over my spells to a new familiar if I give up the old one (instad of having it killed). But with the lost of 2 Hexes because of the archetype, Extra Hex suddenly seems way more attractive. I'm not sure I can spare the feat for an Improved Familiar...
2.) Healing patron is realy good if your dm will let you take it. Other then that Shadow, Trickery, and a few others out of the UM are nice to have.Healing would be my first choice, too. GM agrees, again only if nobody else objects. If they do, I'll go with shadow.
3.) Max out your Int. It dose not matter what your other stats are.Totally agree. Will start with INT 20. Wouldn't have it any other way. Int is more important for a witch than even for a Wizard.
4.) Scorpion, Greensting (Familiar), Personly I think this is one of the best familiers. +2 initiative is hard to pass up.Well the Compsognatus familiar from Bestiary 2 has +4 Initiative. But I'll still go with the Scorpion. Better fit for a Witch and the AP's setting.
5.) Slumber and Evil Eye Hex. The Major Hex Hag's Eye.Slumber and Evil Eye are no-brainer. Not so sure about Hag's Eye, though. Witch already has countless divination spells ncluding arcane eye. But I'll keep the Hex in mind.
2nd level: Hold Person, Web are the two low levels spells you will get alot of use out of.
4th level: Black Tentacles, Charm Monster are the next you that make a big difrence.Love these conjuration spells. The Enchantments... not so much. But I'll still use them becuase a Witch without that kind of spell would be strange.
Thanks again, calagnar :)
I feel the same way about enchantment spells that you do. I try to avoid them whenever possible; too many creatures are immune to them, and the all or nothing nature of the spells leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, witches have an advantage over most other enchanters: Evil Eye. Zap them with that, and you can reduce their saves by -2, -4 at 8th level, giving your enchantment spells a decent chance of actually working.|
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The Hag's Eye is way better then casting the spell.
1. One casting of the spell. Hag's Eye can be used meny times per day becous you can use the min per day as needed.
2. You wold have to cast the spell 3 to 4 times to get the same use of the hex. So your using all your 4th level spell slots to do the same thing as one hex.
3. Black Tentacles>Arcane Eye as your level 4 spell. Unless your geting the arcane eye for free.
I feel the same way about enchantment spells that you do. I try to avoid them whenever possible; too many creatures are immune to them, and the all or nothing nature of the spells leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, witches have an advantage over most other enchanters: Evil Eye. Zap them with that, and you can reduce their saves by -2, -4 at 8th level, giving your enchantment spells a decent chance of actually working.
True, but in a party with 2 melee characters and an archer I'm probably better off using evil eye to lower the enemies AC than saves. And Evil Eye is Mind-Affecting, too. The Witch simply has too many spell and hexes that target will. If it wasn't for the 1 round minimum duration, Evil Eye would be somewhat pointless, too.
The Hag's Eye is way better then casting the spell.
1. One casting of the spell. Hag's Eye can be used meny times per day becous you can use the min per day as needed.
2. You wold have to cast the spell 3 to 4 times to get the same use of the hex. So your using all your 4th level spell slots to do the same thing as one hex.
3. Black Tentacles>Arcane Eye as your level 4 spell. Unless your geting the arcane eye for free.
You forgot to mention the 10 minutes casting time of the spell :P
But yeah, you are right. I'm still not convinced Hag's Eye is overall more useful than Agony (FINALLY a fort targeting hex) or retribution. Its big disadvantage is that it uses the witches perception. As a human witch, I wont be able to scout dark areas. Sending my invisible Imp (should I get one) or the party ranger ahead for scouting seems more effective.Ah well, I doubt we'll reach level 10 anytime soon, so there's plenty of time for consideration.
Well the Compsognatus familiar from Bestiary 2 has +4 Initiative. But I'll still go with the Scorpion. Better fit for a Witch and the AP's setting.
That's one of the things that might change when the errata of UM come out. and that's because the familliar pretty much roughly gives the benefit of a feat, and the scorpions ability only gives you half a feat.
Just saying here.
Well the Compsognatus familiar from Bestiary 2 has +4 Initiative. But I'll still go with the Scorpion. Better fit for a Witch and the AP's setting.
That's one of the things that might change when the errata of UM come out. and that's because the familliar pretty much roughly gives the benefit of a feat, and the scorpions ability only gives you half a feat.
Just saying here.
Yeah, I've seen James' post on this. However, the APG says only +2, too.
I wouldn't hold my breath on convincing my GM to give me +4 Init.