I play in a local Kingmaker campaign and my perception so far is that wealth / gold / gear seems to be on the low side. Has anyone else noticed this in their respective games?
Depends on what you are used to. If you take the WBL table as an inherent right rather than a guideline, Kingmaker does indeed run a little on the low side for loot and gear, particularly if you have more than 4 players and your GM has not adjusted the loot to match.
Viewed from another pespective, however, it is just right. The developers gave the PCs what they need to succeed and no more. Players with that amount of wealth ought to have a good chance of succeeding. Following the WBL guidelines slavishly might result in a cakewalk.
To really answer your question, ask yourself if your group is doing alright. If they are challenged, but successful, then they have plenty of loot. If they are getting their butts kicked consistently, they don't have enough. If they are breesing through everything, they may have too much.
In all fairness, it more or less makes sense for the characters as a rule to have the level of loot that they have. Kingmaker comes across to me as a rags to riches story, with the players having to rely on their own strengths and that of the party to succeed. It may well be that the game is low on loot, but then again that is easily sorted by having a couple of item creation feats and taking your time with the game. There is no real time limit for the game, and nothing saying that you can't take months or so on out in order to use the craft skill and so on which generally is pretty ignored.
I actually must disagree. I went over the first five modules with a fine comb and there is enough loot ( if you go by "sell all magic items for half price and all goods, jewelry and so on for full price" ) to have five PC's at almost exact WBL at the end of each module. This does not take into account that PC's will likely keep some items, which puts them over WBL. Of course raising dead PC's and getting Restorations and the like can fastly eat into that.
I actually must disagree. I went over the first five modules with a fine comb and there is enough loot ( if you go by "sell all magic items for half price and all goods, jewelry and so on for full price" ) to have five PC's at almost exact WBL at the end of each module. This does not take into account that PC's will likely keep some items, which puts them over WBL. Of course raising dead PC's and getting Restorations and the like can fastly eat into that.
I have to admit that I didn't run the numbers, but just went by my own group's experience. My guess is, particularly given the sandbox nature of the AP, every group's experience will be very different. For example, some groups will negotiate with some creatures and reach deals with them rather than killing them and looting. Others like mine will spend a lot of the loot acquired on stuff other than adventuring gear. Still others will simply not be very efficient and find everything possible. However, it is good to know, that if your party operates with maximum efficiency, you can reach the WBL guidelines. So, if you're below, it's you own darn fault, so quit your whining! :)
I actually must disagree. I went over the first five modules with a fine comb and there is enough loot ( if you go by "sell all magic items for half price and all goods, jewelry and so on for full price" ) to have five PC's at almost exact WBL at the end of each module. This does not take into account that PC's will likely keep some items, which puts them over WBL. Of course raising dead PC's and getting Restorations and the like can fastly eat into that.I have to admit that I didn't run the numbers, but just went by my own group's experience. My guess is, particularly given the sandbox nature of the AP, every group's experience will be very different. For example, some groups will negotiate with some creatures and reach deals with them rather than killing them and looting. Others like mine will spend a lot of the loot acquired on stuff other than adventuring gear. Still others will simply not be very efficient and find everything possible. However, it is good to know, that if your party operates with maximum efficiency, you can reach the WBL guidelines. So, if you're below, it's you own darn fault, so quit your whining! :)
Or the GM can just help out a bit. :p
Much more disconcerting to me, I just found out that at least in modules three and four the XP don't even nearly add up for a five PC's party to get to the level they should by modules end. I guess a lot of buffing up encounters is coming at me. <sigh>
The sandbox nature also means that not all treasure in the module will necessarily find its way into PC hands. We just finished book 1 and my group bypassed a few treasures (leaving NPC's alive that were probably intended to be killed and looted, not investigating what looked like a grave, etc.)
Heh, my group didn't want to desecrate the Barbarian grave, either. But there aren't that many NPC's to pass by and not kill. I guess you mean the Boggard dude, which my group also didn't kill. But bandits are basically an auto-combat and there aren't all that many NPC encounters in the module after that.
Ok, so official loot is on par with WBL. Cool. We're level 6 and all I can show for is a +1 leather armor and a +1 weapon, with about 3.5K in loose change. Guess I'll hit the party sorcerer with craft requests at some point... :)
My players actually are having the exact same problem, and I realized the other day what it was:
They have so far missed searching every single room with a big pay off. They'll search high and low everywhere else - taking 20, etc. - but for some reason, in every single room where there's a huge item, they just skip right over it and move on. (It may have to do with the fact that there's usually some other big encounter in that area - trap, monster, etc. - and I guess they must think that was it...?)
So just make sure that you're taking 20 to search everything once all danger is over.
(Of course, my question right now is do I tell them they've missed all this treasure? They missed the payoff in RRR and have missed a couple of big loads in VV already.)
Also keep in mind that the Kingmaker has a lot of random encounters, sure during the first two books most of the monsters have incidental treasure but that thing changes at 3rd+ book.
Anyway i also think that the OP might be right, iirc during the 1st, 2nd and half 3rd books the loot must a little on the low side (more so if the PCs avoided something).
Of course my group had crafting feats during the first 3 books and it helped SO much that it came down to us re-making our characters and banning crafting feats (for that AP only).
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My players actually are having the exact same problem, and I realized the other day what it was:They have so far missed searching every single room with a big pay off. They'll search high and low everywhere else - taking 20, etc. - but for some reason, in every single room where there's a huge item, they just skip right over it and move on. (It may have to do with the fact that there's usually some other big encounter in that area - trap, monster, etc. - and I guess they must think that was it...?)
So just make sure that you're taking 20 to search everything once all danger is over.
(Of course, my question right now is do I tell them they've missed all this treasure? They missed the payoff in RRR and have missed a couple of big loads in VV already.)
This is the problem my group has been having. They either miss the locations with big treasure, or the make friendly the bad guys that have big treasure. So I have had to add some treasure back into the AP, just so that they were somewhere near what they should have. I know the chart is a reference, but they didn't even have half that at level 6.
What? This far into a money discussion for Kingmaker and nobody has mentioned the "Withdraw" option. By the 4th book (and if they are good, the 3rd book) the characters could be withdrawing BP from the kingdom and converting them to gp. That can easily make up the WBL gap (if you have one). If they do it a little at a time, it shouldn't cause a catastrophic problem with the people (ie: unmanageable unrest). Unless the the DM has closed that option (not an uncommon occurrence), but it is RAW.
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I don't alow withdraw option as writen. I give them a +1 Unrest for every point they withdraw, and +2 Unrest for every point they withdraw and fail there check. There are meny threads on this bord where you can see the players abused the withdraw rules and exceded wealth by level after geting there loylty up highenough. So thats a good way for players to get way over wealth by level.
Adding treasure to encounters is probly the best way to fix wealth by level.
What? This far into a money discussion for Kingmaker and nobody has mentioned the "Withdraw" option. By the 4th book (and if they are good, the 3rd book) the characters could be withdrawing BP from the kingdom and converting them to gp. That can easily make up the WBL gap (if you have one). If they do it a little at a time, it shouldn't cause a catastrophic problem with the people (ie: unmanageable unrest). Unless the the DM has closed that option (not an uncommon occurrence), but it is RAW.
It is a valid option for the right kind of party willing to risk the Unrest. It can be abused, particularly if the GM does not enforce the rule that a roll of a 1 always fails, regardless of how high your Loyalty bonus is, but I allow it in my campaign. My players, all neutral and good types, have refused to avail themselves of it yet, and I doubt they ever will. They take their role as rulers at least as seriously as their role as adventurers, and wouldn't dream of endangering their kingdom just to make themselves more personally powerful. The challenge will come if they get into dire straits and feel they need to borrow from the Treasurry to stave off some big threat. Hasn't happened yet (1/3 of the way through VV).
The party in my campaign is likewise well above WBL due to them having access to craft wondrous item and craft arms and armour. Unlike you, they're spending almost all of it on combat gear but even then, I'm not too worried. If PCs fall in battle and cannot be recovered then making a new character with "only" WBL gear actually sets them back. It's nice to have PCs still fear death when they're 11th level.
Books 4 and 5 are probably the easiest so I'm letting the PCs lag about a level behind to make up the difference. I'm not giving them all of the quests possible and they're more interested in the political aspects of the campaign rather than go exploring through the swamps anyway. It's been working well so far with very little modification required on my part.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The party in my campaign is likewise well above WBL due to them having access to craft wondrous item and craft arms and armour. Unlike you, they're spending almost all of it on combat gear but even then, I'm not too worried. If PCs fall in battle and cannot be recovered then making a new character with "only" WBL gear actually sets them back. It's nice to have PCs still fear death when they're 11th level.
Books 4 and 5 are probably the easiest so I'm letting the PCs lag about a level behind to make up the difference. I'm not giving them all of the quests possible and they're more interested in the political aspects of the campaign rather than go exploring through the swamps anyway. It's been working well so far with very little modification required on my part.
If you'd like a harder version of #5, email me at
If you'd like a harder version of #5, email me at
** spoiler omitted **
I emailed you about this (I hope I got the email address right) but in case it didn't work for some reason, I'd still like to see this harder version. My email is:
We just finished the 3rd module this past Saturday. Our duke is a sorcerer with every crafting feat he can access save scrolls which is covered by my wizard. We have some new players and I have swapped out characters. We have aggressively sought money from any source we can get. We have so much money that when 2 new players joined our group, the gm didn't blink. He just told them double starting wealth. At one point the duke had TRIPLE wbl. The gm had started to be concerned because we originally had three party members. Now we have 5 with over double wbl. He voiced his concerns so when we saw Varn's mansion we saw an easy money sink. Now that the module is over, we are all in an episode of Pimp My Hut. Also several members of the party now have access to expensive habits with variable usefulness in combat. The duke is starting to build constructs and the bone oracle is creating undead. I am starting to use planar binding. We are seriously considering an item that does wall of stone and stone shape at will, not for kingdom building, but just for building personal sanctums. We had a kingdom event were a party of adventurers burned down the tavern. As punishment I sentenced them to patrol our northwest border for a year and a day. Some how it has worked out that I adopted them and now use them to solve issues too petty for the party's diirect attention. I have sent them enough equipment to bump them to double wealth by level(not hard they are 2nd level now).
In any other game this would be a serious problem. But we aren't adventurers. We a rulers. I am not a wizard. I am DARPA. The general is the Pentagon. We spend 60%+ of our money on things that don't help us in combat, like a bottle of endless water for the town in case the well dries up. I have a Djinni bound who serves me, not in combat, but as an adviser. Our party has more money than I have ever had in a d20 game and we are still trying to get more. War is coming and daddy needs an iron golem.
Sounds like your group is handling it well. Similarly, in my campaign excess wealth has not been a problem but then they have just started crafting in earnest. If it does become a problem, I sense a Thieve's Guild coming on. Seriously, it is only logical that visible and ostentatious wealth will attract thieves like flies to honey, and if it is wealth in the form of magic items, some of those thieves might be pretty high level adventurers. Even if the charactees do not suffer extensive losses to thieves, they will likley still have to plow money into additional security to prevent it.
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Much more disconcerting to me, I just found out that at least in modules three and four the XP don't even nearly add up for a five PC's party to get to the level they should by modules end. I guess a lot of buffing up encounters is coming at me. <sigh>
Have you considered that the players get XP for building up the realm?.
Much more disconcerting to me, I just found out that at least in modules three and four the XP don't even nearly add up for a five PC's party to get to the level they should by modules end. I guess a lot of buffing up encounters is coming at me. <sigh>Have you considered that the players get XP for building up the realm?.
Yep. Those amount to almost nothing, compared with the XP needs of a five man group.
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The party in my campaign is likewise well above WBL due to them having access to craft wondrous item and craft arms and armour. Unlike you, they're spending almost all of it on combat gear but even then, I'm not too worried. If PCs fall in battle and cannot be recovered then making a new character with "only" WBL gear actually sets them back. It's nice to have PCs still fear death when they're 11th level.
Books 4 and 5 are probably the easiest so I'm letting the PCs lag about a level behind to make up the difference. I'm not giving them all of the quests possible and they're more interested in the political aspects of the campaign rather than go exploring through the swamps anyway. It's been working well so far with very little modification required on my part.
If you'd like a harder version of #5, email me at
** spoiler omitted **
Hey Jason I emailed you requesting the harder version to 5 did you get it. I figure you must just be busy or getting a lot of request. Thanks again.
PJ
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The party in my campaign is likewise well above WBL due to them having access to craft wondrous item and craft arms and armour. Unlike you, they're spending almost all of it on combat gear but even then, I'm not too worried. If PCs fall in battle and cannot be recovered then making a new character with "only" WBL gear actually sets them back. It's nice to have PCs still fear death when they're 11th level.
Books 4 and 5 are probably the easiest so I'm letting the PCs lag about a level behind to make up the difference. I'm not giving them all of the quests possible and they're more interested in the political aspects of the campaign rather than go exploring through the swamps anyway. It's been working well so far with very little modification required on my part.
If you'd like a harder version of #5, email me at
** spoiler omitted **
Hey Jason I emailed you requesting the harder version to 5 did you get it. I figure you must just be busy or getting a lot of request. Thanks again.
PJ
I just recently sent it to a Philip, a Paul, and a Medulla Oblongata. If you are none of those people or brain parts, email me again and I'll hook you up. :)
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I just recently sent it to a Philip, a Paul, and a Medulla Oblongata. If you are none of those people or brain parts, email me again and I'll hook you up. :)
Any chance of snagging a +hard version before your generosity runs out, Superstar?
Looks like my group of 4 is graduating to a rotating lineup of 5-7 hardened veterans who are going to be crafting it up during downtime. The stickies in this subforum will come in handy, but by the time they're ready for 5 I think I'll be needing to seriously crank up the murder.
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Ohhh I just found Legendary Games after randomly following links from one site to another checking out the SuperDuper Tome of Horrors project.
Here's hoping there's plans for add-ons for wilderness exploration and kingdom building themed adventures!
my party had the opposite issue. there 2x to 3x there wbl. this is mainly because i choose to use the slow path and high fantasy and have 5 pc's. i just had so many adventures that kingmaker was a good place to throw them all into so i added a lot. i also found that some of the good items quickly pushed players way over WBL as players wanted to keep the items instead of selling them and distributing them. This led to some players being well over ther WBL and other being far behind other players, so i threw in extra goodies to compensate. also crafting really makes things quickly jump WBL. our dwarf crafted some mithral full plate for the party oracle and that put him through the roof. all in all KM seems to be a monty haul type adventure and thats fine. lets my players get it out of there system before a more restricting ap comes up next campaign.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I just recently sent it to a Philip, a Paul, and a Medulla Oblongata. If you are none of those people or brain parts, email me again and I'll hook you up. :)Any chance of snagging a +hard version before your generosity runs out, Superstar?
Looks like my group of 4 is graduating to a rotating lineup of 5-7 hardened veterans who are going to be crafting it up during downtime. The stickies in this subforum will come in handy, but by the time they're ready for 5 I think I'll be needing to seriously crank up the murder.
You musta senda zee emaile to
and zee murdaire, up she weel be cranked!
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I just recently sent it to a Philip, a Paul, and a Medulla Oblongata. If you are none of those people or brain parts, email me again and I'll hook you up. :)Any chance of snagging a +hard version before your generosity runs out, Superstar?
Looks like my group of 4 is graduating to a rotating lineup of 5-7 hardened veterans who are going to be crafting it up during downtime. The stickies in this subforum will come in handy, but by the time they're ready for 5 I think I'll be needing to seriously crank up the murder.
You musta senda zee emaile to
** spoiler omitted **
and zee murdaire, up she weel be cranked!
Sent you an email again Jason,thnx in advance.
PJ