Hi, I'm new here and fairly new to Pathfinder RPG. I started out playing D&D 4th Ed (which, imo, isn't that bad gameplay wise, it's just too much like WoW), where my first character was a Dragon Sorcerer named Arcwell. Now, I play Pathfinder and have been for a while, which I find much more versatile and a lot more satisfying, especially with casters, who have a nearly infinite range of builds with the many spells, bloodlines, and schools.
I really love Sorcerers and Wizards, and one of the reasons they appeal to me is the Sorcerer draws his magic from his blood, his soul, his own inner force of will, while a Wizard learns how to manipulate magic using spell phrases to "tell" the magic what to do, complex hand gestures to "move" or "guide" the magic, and materials to give the magic "fuel". Sorcerers are creative artists, Wizards are logical architects. What I want is to blend these two together and make an awesome Sorcerer trained as a Wizard in order to hone (or control) his power, or a Wizard who's bloodline suddenly awakens after years of arcane study.
However, I have a question regarding multiclassing Wizards and Sorcerers together. I understand that bloodline abilities and school abilities stack in most cases regarding spells, but when you start combining spells known and spells per day, the line between Wizards and Sorcerers becomes blurred because they have the same spell lists and their methods of casting are different. Sorcerers cast spontaneously, but can you spontaneously cast spells that you know/learned as a Wizard? What about prepared spells? Can you prepare any Wiz/Sorc spell you know, or can you only prepare the spells you have in your spellbook? Wizards also use Int for their DC's when casting spells, and Sorcerers use Cha, so it would make sense that casting spells spontaneously uses Cha, and prepared spells use Int (since you need to memorize prepared spells, but to cast a spell spontaneously you use your force of will). But what about caster levels? Do the levels you get from a Wizard stack with the levels you get from the Sorcerer?
Any critique, advice, and/or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you! ^_^
A sorcerer/wizard can be fun to play but you have to be REALLY careful to keep your spell lists separate. No mixing. No memorizing the spells you know as a sorcerer if they are not in your spell-book and no spontaneously casting spells you learned as a wizard.
Caster levels work the same way they do not stack. You have your caster level as a wizard and a separate caster level as a sorcerer.
The key is to remember that they are two seperate classes you would not expect to be able to combine cleric and sorcerer spell lists etc so do not expect to combine the wizard and the sorcerer.
Despite having the same spell list, the wizard and sorcerer are different classes. Caster levels do not stack. (A Sorcerer 10/Wizard 10 does not cast at 20th level. It casts as a Sorcerer 10 and a Wizard 10.) Spells you cast as a sorcerer use your charisma to determine saves, while any you cast as a wizard use intelligence.
If a spell is in your spellbook (as a wizard), you can only cast that spell with your wizard levels. You can not cast that spell as a sorcerer unless that spell is also one of your sorcerers spells known. The opposite is also true - you can not cast a spell that is on your sorcerers spells known list as a wizard, unless that spell is also in your spellbook.
Remember, though the spell list is shared between the two, wizards and sorcerers are separate classes. Their abilities do not stack with each other.
Also, it's an historically recognized bad build for a character. You'd be better off taking a Wizard that builds towards a degree of spontaneous casting.
Also, it's an historically recognized bad build for a character. You'd be better off taking a Wizard that builds towards a degree of spontaneous casting.
Or an arcane sorcerer with high int.
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Maybe you'd be better off leveling as a Wizard, but taking the Eldritch Heritage feats from Ultimate Magic to reflect tapping his bloodline. Eldritch Heritage lets you gain the first-level bloodline power for your selected bloodline. Improved Eldritch Heritage lets you gain the 3rd or 9th level power in the selected bloodline (and it can be taken twice, to let you gain both). Finally, Greater Eldritch Heritage allows you to gain a 15th-level (or lower) power from the bloodline.
You could also take the Spell Mastery feat from the Core Rulebook, which would allow you to prepare some of your spells without needing to use your spellbook. You'd still need to prepare them, so you wouldn't actually be doing spontaneous casting with this.
Lastly, the Advanced Players Guide includes several items that if taken as your bonded object allow a Wizard to convert memorized spells of one school into other spells from that school that he knows, essentially allowing him to spontaneously cast spells of one school. Check out the Amulet of Magecraft and the Necromancer's Athame.
Sigh, Yeah see this is the problem, the Sorcerer and Wizard are BASICALLY the same spellcasting class, they just have different methods of casting. From a logical standpoint, a sorcerer can cast any spell he knows, and a wizard can prepare any spell that's in his spellbook. They both cast the same spells and use the same components, they both use arcane magic, so why can't their levels stack? I'm just going off common sense here and the rules do not specify this.
I think this is one of those things where the GM comes in and says if it's okay or not. Fortunately for me, I'm currently the GM of a game, but as a player I find it nearly impossible to make a class I can roll with because the rules don't specifically say I can do it.
I'm just going off common sense here and the rules do not specify this.
Actually they rather do state this. It's very easy to find if you actually read the book it is specifically covered. The classes are not 'basically the same' in any way shape or form other than sharing the same basic spell list. Their methods of operation are completely different and generally trying to play one as the other will fail spectacularly -- unless you are an extremely skilled player/character builder and even then the results will probably be less than desired.
It's like saying the fighter and barbarian are 'basically the same thing' and letting them stack for rage and fighter class abilities -- it simply doesn't work, it isn't what the rules allow for, and it is actually explicitedly contrary to what the rules state.
Maybe you'd be better off leveling as a Wizard, but taking the Eldritch Heritage feats from Ultimate Magic to reflect tapping his bloodline. Eldritch Heritage lets you gain the first-level bloodline power for your selected bloodline. Improved Eldritch Heritage lets you gain the 3rd or 9th level power in the selected bloodline (and it can be taken twice, to let you gain both). Finally, Greater Eldritch Heritage allows you to gain a 15th-level (or lower) power from the bloodline.
You could also take the Spell Mastery feat from the Core Rulebook, which would allow you to prepare some of your spells without needing to use your spellbook. You'd still need to prepare them, so you wouldn't actually be doing spontaneous casting with this.
Lastly, the Advanced Players Guide includes several items that if taken as your bonded object allow a Wizard to convert memorized spells of one school into other spells from that school that he knows, essentially allowing him to spontaneously cast spells of one school. Check out the Amulet of Magecraft and the Necromancer's Athame.
It's not just the bloodlines I want, I want those extra spells. But also want variety in spells and Knowledge skills from the Wizard, all without dampening the character's power.
I'm just going off common sense here and the rules do not specify this.Actually they rather do state this. It's very easy to find if you actually read the book it is specifically covered.
I have a near-photographic memory and I have looked cover to cover in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide and nowhere does it say specifically that Sorcerers and Wizards can not cast spells at a stacked level. I've only seen rules about the Arcane bloodline with regard to stacking wizard levels to determine the level of familiars. If you have the book and the exact page #, I'll check it out.
The rules do not say what you can not do. They say what you can do. No where does it say you can stack two classes like this.
You are trying to get the power of two characters in a single package. You can not do that by the rules. It is the same as it was in 3.5. What you want is a variant rule, as presented here. Note, if using those gestalt rules, all PCs must use them as well.
How about I simply quote it for you?
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the Dc of the check).
Spell Failure
So if you are casting a spell as a wizard you use your wizard level as your caster level -- unless something (like a class ability) specifically tells you otherwise. If you cast a spell as a sorcerer then you use your sorcerer level -- unless something (like a class ability) specifically tells you otherwise.
Since neither the sorcerer nor wizard class have a feature that tells you to combine their levels for your caster level you do not do it because the rules specifically tell you what your caster level is -- which is the level of the class from which you are casting the spell from.
I have a near-photographic memory and I have looked cover to cover in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide and nowhere does it say specifically that Sorcerers and Wizards can not cast spells at a stacked level. I've only seen rules about the Arcane bloodline with regard to stacking wizard levels to determine the level of familiars. If you have the book and the exact page #, I'll check it out.I'm just going off common sense here and the rules do not specify this.Actually they rather do state this. It's very easy to find if you actually read the book it is specifically covered.
No two classes stack like that unless it's a specifically designed prestige class. Oracle and cleric no more stacks than cleric and wizard.
This was clearly spelled out in 3.5. Unfortunately, Paizo only copied half of the multiclassing section. (The part they left out can be found here.)
Note that that link above does not contradict anything in Pathfinder (Well, except for the skills part. Pathfinder skills do work differently). It just clarifies how multiclassing works.
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Come on and be a little nicer people. Welcome to Pathfinder Arcwell!
There are quite a few differences between how the Wizard and Sorcerer classes work and it's important to remember that in the end this is a game with rules so not everything is going to be 100% logical to every different person playing it. It's part of why some groups run with tons of house rules and see contradictions everywhere while other groups play straight by the book and haven't run into any problems at all.
Sorcerer and Wizard levels are not intended to stack in any special way. A character doesn't have an Arcane Caster Level or a Divine Caster Level, they have more specific types (Druid Caster Level, Wizard Caster Level, etc.) If however that's something your group wants to allow then that's perfectly alright for them to do. Of course if your only stacking caster levels you'd still only have the spell slots for a Xth level Wizard or Sorcerer, but that'd just be more house rules.
(If it helps at all, the Sorcerer and Wizard lists aren't absolutely identical, Sorcerers can't take certain spells like Mnemonic Enhancer or Mage's Lucubration.)
Speaking from experience here, if you want to play an arcane spell caster who has a good amount of variety while having a good amount of spells per day you should be perfectly happy being a Sorcerer. They get a lot of spells despite what some people might think or suggest and they are extremely versatile with metamagic feats compared to most casters. Coupled with a lot of the magic items in the game, magic scrolls and the rest of your party, there won't normally be times that you'll have a want for a different kind of magic. Plus beyond that you can swap out some lower level spells as you grow in level. Character Traits (available for free on the website or from the Advanced Player's Guide) can help flesh out some of your class skills and give you interesting ways to represent your character's background.
There was a prestige class in Complete Mage (3.5 splat book) which specifically was for stacking a spontaneous arcane caster with a prepared arcane caster. You effectively ended up around 15th level in each, as well as having some crossover between spell lists. I think it was called Ultimate Magus?
What I want is to blend these two together and make an awesome Sorcerer trained as a Wizard in order to hone (or control) his power, or a Wizard who's bloodline suddenly awakens after years of arcane study.
There's nothing particularly wrong with splashing a level or two of sorcerer with wizard or vice-versa. In fact, this is an excellent idea if you exploit some of the bloodline arcana abilities -- particularly the draconic +1 damage per die to one element type. That affects all spells you cast (not just sorcerer spells).
Welcome to Pathfinder!
As the others have said, the two classes do not share any of their spellcasting abilities. And as with all full caster, multiclassing (even a 1-level-dip) can severely weaken your character.
There are 2 ways I can thnk of to combine flexibility with spontaneous casting.
1. Play an Universalist wizard with an Amulet of Magecraft as bonded item. Don't forget that a wizard can enchant his bonded item without the feat usually required, so you could in theory start with a mundane amulet as bonded item and craft it into the Magecraft Amulet as early as level 3. The spellcraft check should be easy enough, but the 10000 gold might be a bit hard to come by at this level.
2. Play a human sorcerer and use the alternate favored class option from the APG to increase your spells known. Go with the arcane Blodline and/or take the expanded arcana feat a couple of times to increase your flexibility. You can end up with a pretty decent number of spells known. If you want to add to the "wizard-y sorcerer" flavor, check the sage bloodline variant from UM (basically lets you cast with int instead of cha). You can find it on the PFSRD
Maybe one of those options can deliver what you are looking for - or at least come near.
There was a prestige class in Complete Mage (3.5 splat book) which specifically was for stacking a spontaneous arcane caster with a prepared arcane caster. You effectively ended up around 15th level in each, as well as having some crossover between spell lists. I think it was called Ultimate Magus?
It was Ultimate Magus. It's my favorite prestige class that I never got a chance to play.
There was a prestige class in Complete Mage (3.5 splat book) which specifically was for stacking a spontaneous arcane caster with a prepared arcane caster. You effectively ended up around 15th level in each, as well as having some crossover between spell lists. I think it was called Ultimate Magus?It was Ultimate Magus. It's my favorite prestige class that I never got a chance to play.
Indeed if you want to mutliclass wizard sorc this is the only way to go.
But it is 3.5 so you have to see if your DM is ok with it.
Hi, I'm new here and fairly new to Pathfinder RPG. I started out playing D&D 4th Ed (which, imo, isn't that bad gameplay wise, it's just too much like WoW)
You're just found your new home (when it comes to roleplaying games).
Now, I play Pathfinder and have been for a while, which I find much more versatile and a lot more satisfying, especially with casters, who have a nearly infinite range of builds with the many spells, bloodlines, and schools.
Note: Some people (mainly me) think that "build" is a bad word.
It reduces the character to a bunch of stats to optimise.
I prefer "character concept". "Build" sounds too 4e for me.
What I want is to blend these two together and make an awesome Sorcerer trained as a Wizard in order to hone (or control) his power, or a Wizard who's bloodline suddenly awakens after years of arcane study.
That one is going to be difficult. A multiclass sorcerer/wizard is a bad idea, as the two spellcasting abilities don't work well together. You can't add up your sor levels and your wiz levels and use that for magic.
A sor5/wiz5 Is not a spellcaster 10. That character gets lots of feats and skill points and HP, just like other spellcasters, his save bonuses and BAB are combined, but the spell lists remain separate. You don't get to use 5th-level spells with caster level 10. Instead, you get to cast like a 5th-level sorcerer (2nd-level spells) and a 5th-level wizard (3rd-level spells). Lots and lots of those low-level spells, but that won't help you against the higher-level stuff your enemies will probably tout.
There is no overlap between the lists.
There is a PrC in one of the 3.5 books that covers this very concept. It might be in Complete Mage, but I'm not sure.
Best bet is probably to stick to one class and try to emulate the other a bit.
Option 1: Sorcerer with a bit of an actual arcane schooling. There are some feats and traits to help you out, like those who let you add Knowledge skills to your class skill list.
The loremaster PrC might also help.
The Arcane bloodline seems to be the best choice if you're limited to the core rules.
If you have access to Ultimate Magic, you could use the wildblooded archetype to instead have the Sage variant bloodline. That will give you a bonus to knowledge skills - and you cast using Int instead of Cha. Bam! Spontaneous yet bookish caster.
Option 2: Wizard with a bit of spontaneity thrown in. Ultimate Magic will help a lot with this, because of a ton of feats found therein. One is Greater Spell Specialisation, which lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells into a spell you specified, like a cleric converting spells into cure spells.
Then there's Eldritch Heritage and its follow-ups, which let you get some bloodline abilities as a non-sorcerer.
There was a prestige class in Complete Mage (3.5 splat book) which specifically was for stacking a spontaneous arcane caster with a prepared arcane caster. You effectively ended up around 15th level in each, as well as having some crossover between spell lists. I think it was called Ultimate Magus?It was Ultimate Magus. It's my favorite prestige class that I never got a chance to play.
Same here.
Same here.There was a prestige class in Complete Mage (3.5 splat book) which specifically was for stacking a spontaneous arcane caster with a prepared arcane caster. You effectively ended up around 15th level in each, as well as having some crossover between spell lists. I think it was called Ultimate Magus?It was Ultimate Magus. It's my favorite prestige class that I never got a chance to play.
Likewise, for spellcasting PrCs, at least.