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Three quick questions, sorry if they've been asked before. Couldn't find an answer in the archive on a quick search.
1) If an nth-level Magus casts Chill Touch with Spellstrike, he can make n weapon attacks with his sword after that, each delivering the Chill Touch effects in addition to weapon damage, is that right? The spell or the right to deliver it through weapon attacks do not end prematurely?
2) If I recall correctly, some semi-official rulings on these boards have declared that the attacks provided by Chill Touch and Produce Flame can only be used once per round, since they are not weapon-like. Can abovementioned Magus still use them several times a round (e.g. through iterative attacks) because they are delivered in a weapon-like fashion here? Or would that Magus be allowed to make a full attack, but only the first attack would trigger the spell?
3) Shocking Grasp gives you a +3 bonus to attack enemies wearing metal; does this also apply to the weapon attack with which a Magus may deliver such a Shocking Grasp? By RAW I think this is the case, since the spell description says "When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls", which perfectly applies here.
I just noticed that a wand of Shocking Grasp and the Wand Wielder arcana make Spell Combat very efficient against most humanoid enemies...
Yes to question 3.
I just noticed that a wand of Shocking Grasp and the Wand Wielder arcana make Spell Combat very efficient against most humanoid enemies...
Why do you think that?
About no.1:
Here is a portion of the spellstrike:
Instead of the free melee touch attack
normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one
free melee attack with his weapon
Emphasis mine.
Since it says that you get one free melee attack it's pretty clear that the round in which you used spellstrike you get only one attack.
Now whether you can normally attack (melee) in the following round(s) and get the effects of chill touch, or you are allowed to make touch attacks in the following round(s), or the effects just end prematurely is up to interpation.
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Three quick questions, sorry if they've been asked before. Couldn't find an answer in the archive on a quick search.
1) If an nth-level Magus casts Chill Touch with Spellstrike, he can make n weapon attacks with his sword after that, each delivering the Chill Touch effects in addition to weapon damage, is that right? The spell or the right to deliver it through weapon attacks do not end prematurely?
2) If I recall correctly, some semi-official rulings on these boards have declared that the attacks provided by Chill Touch and Produce Flame can only be used once per round, since they are not weapon-like. Can abovementioned Magus still use them several times a round (e.g. through iterative attacks) because they are delivered in a weapon-like fashion here? Or would that Magus be allowed to make a full attack, but only the first attack would trigger the spell?
3) Shocking Grasp gives you a +3 bonus to attack enemies wearing metal; does this also apply to the weapon attack with which a Magus may deliver such a Shocking Grasp? By RAW I think this is the case, since the spell description says "When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls", which perfectly applies here.
I just noticed that a wand of Shocking Grasp and the Wand Wielder arcana make Spell Combat very efficient against most humanoid enemies...
As for #1, I read it the same way. However, other people interpret it differently and I don't know the source they are coming from or if they just don't understand it the same way we do. I would like to know the source others are coming from.
#2, Spell combat and a touch spell work this way, first you cast or attack with your weapon. In the case of casting first you make a spellcraft check then make the attack with your weapon. You cast the spell using spellstike at a minus two on top of other minuses such as power attack and so forth, then you get the rest of your attacks at the same minus. If you have more than one attack then you get it when you attack with your weapon when you are not spellstriking after you cast a spell.
You are duel wielding a spell and a weapon. If you cast the spell first with spellstrike, next you fight with your weapon getting the number of attacks per round when fighting. If you are fighting with Wand wielder, you automatically make the spellcraft check when casting the spell using spellstrike when you are using the "casting the spell" part of spell combat.
#3, You get the +3 when spellstriking using Shocking Grasp under its conditions.
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About no.1:
Here is a portion of the spellstrike:
Instead of the free melee touch attack
normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one
free melee attack with his weaponEmphasis mine.
Since it says that you get one free melee attack it's pretty clear that the round in which you used spellstrike you get only one attack.
Now whether you can normally attack (melee) in the following round(s) and get the effects of chill touch, or you are allowed to make touch attacks in the following round(s), or the effects just end prematurely is up to interpation.
Not quite. If you keep reading, it then specifically states that if you use spellstrike in conjunction with spell combat, the spellstrike takes the same penalty to hit that the normal attack does. So essentially, you can "two weapon fight" with spell combat/spellstrike.
Example:
a 4th level magus with a scimitar can
1. attack once in a round at full bonus
2. attack once at -2 and cast any spell (spell combat)
3. attack once as part of a touch spell at full bonus (scimitar dmg + spell)
OR
4. attack with spellstrike and spell combat. scimitar attack at -2 AND touch spell delivered through scimitar at -2 (scimitar + spell dmg)
see, the spellstrike attack is a FREE attack, in addition to whatever else you do. Since you can normally only cast a spell in a round, no biggie. However, when you combine that with spell combat, you can get a full attack + one extra attack melded with a spell.
the spellstrike attack is a FREE attack, in addition to whatever else you do. Since you can normally only cast a spell in a round, no biggie. However, when you combine that with spell combat, you can get a full attack + one extra attack melded with a spell.
That is correct.
The magus class has built in two weapon fighting.
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Three quick questions, sorry if they've been asked before. Couldn't find an answer in the archive on a quick search.
1) If an nth-level Magus casts Chill Touch with Spellstrike, he can make n weapon attacks with his sword after that, each delivering the Chill Touch effects in addition to weapon damage, is that right? The spell or the right to deliver it through weapon attacks do not end prematurely?
Spellstrike states that "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."
Chill Touch only gives you 1 free attack : the one on the turn you are casting it. Thus you can use spellstrike with Chill Touch only on said casting turn.
The other attacks which Chill Touch provides are not free attacks (they are usually understood to be standard actions) thus they cannot be used with spellstrike.
2) If I recall correctly, some semi-official rulings on these boards have declared that the attacks provided by Chill Touch and Produce Flame can only be used once per round, since they are not weapon-like. Can abovementioned Magus still use them several times a round (e.g. through iterative attacks) because they are delivered in a weapon-like fashion here? Or would that Magus be allowed to make a full attack, but only the first attack would trigger the spell?
I recall the same thing ;-)
In the first round, he can make a full-attack, and the free attack made with spellstrike will trigger the spell effect. This attack comes either before or after his normal attacks (per spell combat's wording). Thus it can be the first or the last of his attacks for that round. On the following rounds, he can full attack with his weapon or attack as a standard action with the spell effect (because of the answer to 1).
3) Shocking Grasp gives you a +3 bonus to attack enemies wearing metal; does this also apply to the weapon attack with which a Magus may deliver such a Shocking Grasp? By RAW I think this is the case, since the spell description says "When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls", which perfectly applies here.
No. Spell strike states that "If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell." Thus, the effects of the spell are added to the attack's damage after the attack roll. Any bonus that the spell's effects would have given to the attack roll is lost.
I just noticed that a wand of Shocking Grasp and the Wand Wielder arcana make Spell Combat very efficient against most humanoid enemies...
It doesn't because of the answer to 3 ;-)
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Why do you think that?
Because wands circumvent the Magus' very limited daily spell resources, and the +3 from the spell easily compensates for the -2 from Spell Combat.
Spellstrike states that "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."Chill Touch only gives you 1 free attack : the one on the turn you are casting it. Thus you can use spellstrike with Chill Touch only on said casting turn.
I can see how one might interpret it that way. Although I know I'm not getting more than one free attack out of a spell, I find it weird that the second and following "touches" of a given Chill Touch casting should require delivery by hand when the first touch was delivered by sword.
So there is no way of delivering the extra attacks from Chill Touch while also doing weapon attacks? That sucks... clearly Shocking Grasp is vastly superior in that respect.
[on 3)] No. Spell strike states that "If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell." Thus, the effects of the spell are added to the attack's damage after the attack roll. Any bonus that the spell's effects would have given to the attack roll is lost.
I disagree. The spell description clearly gives a bonus to the attack roll used to deliver the spell; the nature of the attack roll is (thankfully) not specified. Nothing in the description of Spellstrike says that spell effects affecting the delivery attack are suppressed.
the spellstrike attack is a FREE attack, in addition to whatever else you do. Since you can normally only cast a spell in a round, no biggie. However, when you combine that with spell combat, you can get a full attack + one extra attack melded with a spell.That is correct.
The magus class has built in two weapon fighting.
From what you're saying...
Round 1: Cast touch spell, hold in concentration
Round 2: Make free attack action to Spellstrike, then Full Attack using Spell Combat, or make another Spellstrike?
So in one round (round 2), the magus can make a melee attack to deliver a touch spell, then cast another spell (either for spell combat or spell strike), then make another melee attack (spellstrike) or multiple melee attacks (full attack)?
So by this scenario, I could have a cleric cast an Inflict spell in Round 1, then deliver it in Round 2 and in the same round cast another spell or execute a Full Attack action?
Three quick questions, sorry if they've been asked before. Couldn't find an answer in the archive on a quick search.
1) If an nth-level Magus casts Chill Touch with Spellstrike, he can make n weapon attacks with his sword after that, each delivering the Chill Touch effects in addition to weapon damage, is that right? The spell or the right to deliver it through weapon attacks do not end prematurely?
2) If I recall correctly, some semi-official rulings on these boards have declared that the attacks provided by Chill Touch and Produce Flame can only be used once per round, since they are not weapon-like. Can abovementioned Magus still use them several times a round (e.g. through iterative attacks) because they are delivered in a weapon-like fashion here? Or would that Magus be allowed to make a full attack, but only the first attack would trigger the spell?
The question to ask would be a more general one:
If a monk had a chill touch active, and made a flurry of blows of unarmed strikes would each strike that hit also deliver a chill touch?
Also another question to ask is: does an active chill touch spell count as a held touch spell?
-James
For your second question, no:
In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
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From what you're saying...
Round 1: Cast touch spell, hold in concentration
Round 2: Make free attack action to Spellstrike, then Full Attack using Spell Combat, or make another Spellstrike?
That doesn't work, because the "free attack" is only a free action in the round of casting, afterwards it becomes a standard action.
@Sizik: Chill Touch is not one of those spells that allow you to touch multiple targets at the same time (such as Teleport), so one should be able to hold the Chill Touch charge. It's just that you forfeit the free-action attack then.
From what you're saying...
Round 1: Cast touch spell, hold in concentration
Round 2: Make free attack action to Spellstrike, then Full Attack using Spell Combat, or make another Spellstrike?That doesn't work, because the "free attack" is only a free action in the round of casting, afterwards it becomes a standard action.
@Sizik: Chill Touch is not one of those spells that allow you to touch multiple targets at the same time (such as Teleport), so one should be able to hold the Chill Touch charge. It's just that you forfeit the free-action attack then.
Then how exactly does Spellstrike+Spell Combat work?
You enter Spell Combat, cast a touch spell, take a Free Action melee attack at your highest BAB-2 (spell combat penalty), and then take a Full Attack at your normal BAB progression with a -2 on each attack?
This thread is hard to follow.
Spellstrike lets you deliver a touch attack with your weapon, at the cost of hitting normal AC instead of touch AC. This includes the 'free' attack you get for casting a spell, but you can use it any time you have the held charge of a touch spell. It's exactly like a normal touch spell, the only difference is you make the attack with your sword instead of your finger (and normal AC, and you get weapon damage, and the crit range might change). Don't get so hung up on the 'free attack' part of Spellstrike that you ignore what it actually does.
Chill Touch is 1 attack per level. You hold the charge until the spell is expended (or until you cast another spell).
Normal Sorcerer: Cast Chill Touch. Deliver 'free' touch attack. Each round after that, use standard attack to deliver another touch attack until the spell is expended. (If his BAB is high enough for iterative attacks, he could full attack to make more than one touch per round, not including the round he cast the spell)
Magus: Exactly the same, only with the option of using Spellstrike to deliver those touch attacks with his sword (vs normal AC).
Spell Combat gives you an extra attack, which could deliver another chill.
Example:
Round 1: Full Attack using Spell Combat
1) Cast Chill Touch
2) Deliver 'free' melee attack via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
3) Use normal iterative attack to deliver another chill via Spellstrike (also at -2 penalty)
Round 2: Full Attack using Spell Combat
1) Use normal iterative attack to deliver chill via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
2) Cast Shocking Grasp (Ends any remaining charge from Chill Touch)
3) Deliver Shocking Grasp via 'free' melee attack via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
and repeat.
Example:
Round 1: Full Attack using Spell Combat
1) Cast Chill Touch
2) Deliver 'free' melee attack via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
3) Use normal iterative attack to deliver another chill via Spellstrike (also at -2 penalty)Round 2: Full Attack using Spell Combat
1) Use normal iterative attack to deliver chill via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
2) Cast Shocking Grasp (Ends any remaining charge from Chill Touch)
3) Deliver Shocking Grasp via 'free' melee attack via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)and repeat.
I see what you're getting at, but would your Round 2 work?
"A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks."
"A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks."
That's for iterative attacks. For instance, if the Magus has BAB of +6/+1 he can't make an attack at +6, then cast a spell, then make his other iterative attack at +1. (-edit- also for multiple natural attacks, I guess. No bite/spellcast/claw.)
He's making all his iterative attacks (in my example, just one) then casting a spell. As part of casting the spell, he's entitled to a free touch attack. He's using Spellstrike to deliver that attack with his sword.
This thread is hard to follow.
Spellstrike lets you deliver a touch attack with your weapon, at the cost of hitting normal AC instead of touch AC. This includes the 'free' attack you get for casting a spell, but you can use it any time you have the held charge of a touch spell. It's exactly like a normal touch spell, the only difference is you make the attack with your sword instead of your finger (and normal AC, and you get weapon damage, and the crit range might change). Don't get so hung up on the 'free attack' part of Spellstrike that you ignore what it actually does.
Chill Touch is 1 attack per level. You hold the charge until the spell is expended (or until you cast another spell).
Normal Sorcerer: Cast Chill Touch. Deliver 'free' touch attack. Each round after that, use standard attack to deliver another touch attack until the spell is expended. (If his BAB is high enough for iterative attacks, he could full attack to make more than one touch per round, not including the round he cast the spell)
Magus: Exactly the same, only with the option of using Spellstrike to deliver those touch attacks with his sword (vs normal AC).
Spell Combat gives you an extra attack, which could deliver another chill.
Example:
Round 1: Full Attack using Spell Combat
1) Cast Chill Touch
2) Deliver 'free' melee attack via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
3) Use normal iterative attack to deliver another chill via Spellstrike (also at -2 penalty)Round 2: Full Attack using Spell Combat
1) Use normal iterative attack to deliver chill via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)
2) Cast Shocking Grasp (Ends any remaining charge from Chill Touch)
3) Deliver Shocking Grasp via 'free' melee attack via Spellstrike (at -2 penalty)and repeat.
Although i understand what you are saying, and this thing is legit. it is only so because it isn't clarified if for spells like chill touch, you can deliver the spell the following round with your weapon or your touch.
I happen to agree with you and i wish to see the RAW like that but i also know that we need an official ruling on this.
Chill touch CAN affect people in following rounds. Touch spells that give you multiple touches do hold the charge over multiple rounds.
Touch spells with multiple one-time targets, on the other hand, do not let you hold the charge. You have to touch every target of the spell within the same round. An example would be mass invigorate, which has touch range but can affect up to 1 ally per level. You can't, for instance, use it on one ally and then hold the rest of the charges for later use. This is because it does not have text like chill touch does: "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." Chill touch is essentially a touch spell with multiple charges, rather than a touch spell with multiple targets.
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All Spellstrike does, essentially, is change the 'thing you touch with' from your hand to your weapon. In that respect it's pretty much the same deal as a Wizard designating his Familiar as the 'thing you touch with'. In any case the thing you designate as the 'thing you touch with' when you cast the spell remains the 'thing you touch with' until the spell's discharged, dismissed, or whatever.
So you cast Shocking Grasp - normally your hand is now crackling with electrical power, ready to discharge into the first thing you touch. If you choose to cast the spell with Spellstrike you designate your weapon as the 'thing you touch with' and take the 'free' attack which comes with casting the spell as a weapon attack - in this case your sword (or whatever it is you're swinging at the other guy) is crackling with electrical power. If you hit, then all's fine as the spell does what it does. If you miss then your sword is still crackling with electrical power, and will do so until it either touches something (hopefully the bad guy), or you cast another spell and lose the charge on the Shocking Grasp.
With Chill Touch it's basically the same thing. You cast the spell with Spellstrike and your sword, instead of your hand, is glowing with blue energy. Because Chill Touch allows multiple 'uses', every time your sword touches something the Chill Touch goes off... until you run out of 'uses', or cast a new spell, or otherwise disrupt or dismiss the effect.
In either case the only 'free' attack you (potentially) get is the one which is part and parcel of casting the spell in the first place. If you, for example, are preparing for a combat you know's about to happen (your party has a Rogue in it who scouts - congratulations!) you could cast Shocking Grasp as a Spellstrike before you even got to the combat. Now your sword's crackling with electrical power. There was nothing to attack when you cast the spell, so the 'free' attack as part of casting the thing is gone and forgotten. On the other hand, now you can enter the upcoming combat with a charge (that is to say the sprint, rather than the dose of magical energy), two-handing your sword, and still get that Shocking Grasp damage added to that first shot as well...
Note that Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch are both 'instantaneous' duration spells. That's not quite the same as, say, an 'instantaneous' Fireball spell - which zooms out and explodes. In the case of the melee touch spells the 'instantaneous' effect is to 'load' your hand (or Familiar or weapon-via-Spellstrike) with magical power, which is then discharged into the bad guy when you whack him. Shocking Grasp 'loads' a hand / Familiar / weapon with a single 'shot', Chill Touch loads a hand / Familiar / weapon with (caster level) shots.
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You could full attack with unarmed strikes and the first hit there would deliver a held touch spell.
That is definitely how I would rule it, but it does not follow unambiguously for the RAW. We have a semi-official ruling that such a spell can only discharge once per round, but can it do so on a melee attack (rather than a dedicated touch attack)?
Also, if you miss AC with your unarmed strike but not Touch AC, does the charge trigger?
All Spellstrike does, essentially, is change the 'thing you touch with' from your hand to your weapon.
That's also what I expect the RAI to mean, but by RAW you can only replace the free touch attack in the round of casting with a weapon attack, not any kind of touch attack to deliver a charge... is that errata material?
We have a semi-official ruling that such a spell can only discharge once per round, but can it do so on a melee attack (rather than a dedicated touch attack)?
I haven't seen any ruling that says you can only discharge once per round.
I think James Maissen was saying that, with all touch spells, if you're holding a charge and then punch something, the spell will discharge. (Just like if you pat your buddy on the back, zap) I think he wasn't saying that the remaining attacks from Chill Touch vanish once you use one of them, or that only the first punch will zap someone.
He was clarifying that, unlike a wizard/monk, a Magus with Spellstrike can deliver the first, free, attack on the round he cast with his weapon. (The wizard/monk can't use unarmed strike to deliver the free attack as part of casting a touch spell, he can only use a regular touch. Each round -after- that, while holding the charge, he can use unarmed strikes to deliver the spell.)
Also, if you miss AC with your unarmed strike but not Touch AC, does the charge trigger?
Nope. If you're using a weapon/fist you make the attack against normal AC, not touch AC. If you miss normal AC, the entire attack misses. If you want to try to hit vs touch AC, then you just make a normal touch attack (but no fist/weapon damage).
Holding the Charge: "Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. (...) If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."
by RAW you can only replace the free touch attack in the round of casting with a weapon attack, not any kind of touch attack to deliver a charge...
Spellstrike: "At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."
Did he cast a touch spell from the magus list? If so, he can deliver it through a weapon as a melee attack.
That doesn't say anything about not being able to hold the charge if you miss, or choose not to take the free attack, or whatever. If it's a touch spell from the magus list, he can use his weapon to deliver it.
It doesn't say "in the same round as casting a touch spell" it just says to deliver the spell. So he could cast a touch spell, then stand around for an hour, then deliver the spell with his weapon.
if remaining charges are lost with spell combat, the spell really becomes useless
The remaining attacks from Chill Touch are lost if you cast another spell. So if you're using Spell Combat to -cast- Chill Touch, you're good. If you already have Chill Touch up, then when you cast (with your 'offhand attack') then yes, Chill Touch dissipates.
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That's also what I expect the RAI to mean, but by RAW you can only replace the free touch attack in the round of casting with a weapon attack, not any kind of touch attack to deliver a charge... is that errata material?
No errata needed, really...
'Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack...' (Ultimate Magic page 10)
This piece of text tells us that the Magus can deliver the touch spell through his melee weapon. After this sentence the text goes on the clarify details about the 'free' attack melee touch spells get, how the ability relates to the weapon's critical threat range, critical damage modifier, and other stuff which was raised as questions during the playtest... but none of that takes away from, or in any way limits, this first sentence - the Magus can deliver the spell through his weapon.
Since melee touch attack spells are of instantaneous duration we can see that, once the choice to use Spellstrike to deliver the spell through the Magus's weapon, instead of his hand (or Familiar, if appropriate), has been made, then there's no going back. The instantaneous effect is to 'load' the spell energy into the 'touching item' - the fact that energy is so 'loaded' then has additional effects when you go around hitting people with it.
If you were to rule that, by choice or design, a melee touch attack spell cast via Spellstrike was delivered by the designated weapon in one attack, and the Magus's hand in the next (all from one single casting of a spell with multiple 'shots' like Chill Touch), then you've changed the instantaneous duration into something else - something which lasts until the spell is discharged and can be reassigned (by the Magus or by some quirk of the rules) between attacks. That's neither RAW, nor RAI... IMHO, natch! ;)
The Magus is a fairly complex class in that to understand his abilities requires a certain amount of knowledge of various other, sometimes not commonly used, parts of the rules. Melee touch attack spells aren't a favourite of most pure casters simply because of the danger involved getting that close to the bad guys; so unless you happen to have played in a group where a caster has used the things on a regular basis, there's a certain amount of learning curve to figure them out, even before you get on to figuring out Spellstrike in all its glory...
Yeah, that's not really clear with the rules as they're written, since as written, it says "
Spellstrike: "At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."" The round AFTER you've cast chill touch and received your free weapon attack with it, assuming you're holding the charge from chill touch and not casting another spell, then you're not CASTING a spell with a range of touch. You cast the spell last round. So an extremely uber legalistic rules lawyer type GM could say to you that you lose the additional chill touch attacks you would normally have in subsequent rounds. This type of GM could tell you that, by the RAW, you can either make a standard melee touch attack to use your additional Chill touch attacks in subsequent rounds, or you can make your weapon attacks, but that the additional chill touch attacks can't be channeled through your weapon via spellstrike in subsequent rounds because the spellstrike action is only available "whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch"" and not AFTER casting a spell with a range of touch.Now, mind you, I think that your interpretation above is correct; until the chill touch spell is discharged, each weapon strike that hits should include the chill touch effect. I think that's what the rules intended, too. That's not what they SAY, though. It would be nice to get an official response on what the actual intent is just so we don't have to deal with having a different interpretation at every table.
I can't help but notice that you wrote the word "casting" in large. block caps. Which is odd because that particular tense of the verb doesn't appear in the section in question.
Spellstrike doesn't say you have to be casting the spell while you use it, it doesn't even say you have to have cast the spell in the same round. All it says is that the Magus, personally, has to have cast the spell and that the spell has to be on the Magus list.
This is what the rules say, and it is also the argument I would present to an uber legalistic rules lawyer type GM who, wrongly, stated the the rules say otherwise.
once the choice to use Spellstrike to deliver the spell through the Magus's weapon, instead of his hand (or Familiar, if appropriate), has been made, then there's no going back.
I disagree.
Your description is of the charge being held in the weapon, as opposed to the Magus's hand, or body, or whatever. While that sounds cool, the rules don't actually say that.
If you were to rule that, by choice or design, a melee touch attack spell cast via Spellstrike was delivered by the designated weapon in one attack, and the Magus's hand in the next (all from one single casting of a spell with multiple 'shots' like Chill Touch), then you've changed the instantaneous duration into something else
To avoid more confusion with Magus, I'll use a monster instead.
Sorcerer-monster casts Chill Touch. He gets a free touch attack that round. On the next round, he can, instead of making a touch attack, use a natural attack instead. (Citation: Holding the Charge) Since it's optional, he could go back to making regular touch attacks on subsequent rounds. He can freely switch between touching (with whatever passes for a limb), biting, clawing, tail slapping, etc. If this horrible monster forgets he's still holding a charge, goes home and kisses his wife, it still discharges.
So why can't a Magus do the same thing? Spellstrike is not a specific way of casting a spell, it's an optional way to deliver that spell. If he has cast a touch spell from the Magus list, he has the option of delivering it with his weapon. Key words "he can deliver..." it doesn't 'lock' the charge in his weapon, or his hand, or whatever.
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Your description is of the charge being held in the weapon, as opposed to the Magus's hand, or body, or whatever. While that sounds cool, the rules don't actually say that.
They do say that - when they explain how the Magus can chose to 'deliver' the melee touch attack spell (he can chose to deliver it through his melee weapon). Again, the spell itself is instantaneous - the choice is made as part of casting the spell.
Sorcerer-monster casts Chill Touch. He gets a free touch attack that round. On the next round, he can, instead of making a touch attack, use a natural attack instead. (Citation: Holding the Charge) Since it's optional, he could go back to making regular touch attacks on subsequent rounds. He can freely switch between touching (with whatever passes for a limb), biting, clawing, tail slapping, etc. If this horrible monster forgets he's still holding a charge, goes home and kisses his wife, it still discharges.
The melee touch spell is still 'loaded' into one place, even with this monster - by default, into his hand... although that hand may, in fact, be a claw. He can use that claw to deliver the spell, but if he also has a tail, for example, he uses to slap the other guy with that can't deliver the spell, because it's not 'loaded' there - it's loaded in his hand / claw. In the same way, he can only accidentally zap his wife with a kiss if, somehow, he's managed to cast the spell in such a way that it 'loads' into his lips...
The melee touch spell is still 'loaded' into one place, even with this monster - by default, into his hand... although that hand may, in fact, be a claw. He can use that claw to deliver the spell, but if he also has a tail, for example, he uses to slap the other guy with that can't deliver the spell, because it's not 'loaded' there - it's loaded in his hand / claw. In the same way, he can only accidentally zap his wife with a kiss if, somehow, he's managed to cast the spell in such a way that it 'loads' into his lips...
The rules say you can make a natural attack to deliver a held charge. They don't say you have to choose which natural weapon you are going to put the spell in if you later on choose to use said weapon to deliver a held charge. The rules do not say that you pick a part of your body to serve as the "toucher." The only rules about designating a toucher is for a familiar, which is a completely separate being.
Yes, the duration is instantaneous. That doesn't change. The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
Spellstrike has nothing to do with casting the spell. IF you have cast a magus touch spell, THEN you can choose to use your sword to deliver it.
If Spellstrike was used to actually cast the thing, then the casting wouldn't provoke because Spellstrike is a Supernatural ability.
Instead, as written, it's simply an option you can take if you have cast a Magus touch spell.
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The rules say you can make a natural attack to deliver a held charge. They don't say you have to choose which natural weapon you are going to put the spell in if you later on choose to use said weapon to deliver a held charge. The rules do not say that you pick a part of your body to serve as the "toucher." ...
The rules also famously don't state that the dead condition stops you from moving... ;)
Or... what do you think the assumed touching body part is for a melee touch attack? Your nose? While you can touch stuff with your nose, in general usage I'd suggest that to 'touch' has a built-in assumption of being via a hand, unless stated otherwise.
Maybe an example will help?
Chill Touch states...
'... A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy...' (Core book page 255)
So, for Chill Touch at the very least it's crystal clear that the spell, by default, 'loads' into your hand. That can only be changed by specific exceptions which allow you to change that - such as using a Familiar to deliver the spell, or using Spellstrike.
Admittedly this probably makes more sense if you've had to deal with the Spell Flower spell from 3.5... ;)
Or... what do you think the assumed touching body part is for a melee touch attack?
Yes, the assumption is you touch with your hand. But it doesn't state that the charge from the spell is stored there.
So, for Chill Touch at the very least it's crystal clear that the spell, by default, 'loads' into your hand.
So the fluff description of chill touch overrides the holding the charge rules that say you can deliver the spell with a natural attack? If your only natural attack is Gore, do you have to headbutt someone (gently) to deliver the touch on the round you cast it?
It's more reasonable to assume that the caster is imbued with the spells power, and holds the charge within his body, rather than in one hand. He then discharges it by touching something, or punching something, or whatever. The Magus simply can conduct that charge down his weapon, instead of through his hands/knees/tail/etc.
Unfortunately, the documentation doesn't say that the magus has to have cast the spell,it says "Whenever a magus casts a spell...and so on."
As I mentioned previously, I agree with the interpretation of the rules given by Grick above. However, it would be nice to have that interpretation validated by paizo staff (at least for those of us in organized play.)
How can a Magus use Spellstrike if he didn't cast the spell?
That is what you said.
Unfortunately, the documentation doesn't say that the magus has to have cast the spell
If you had put quotes in you would have made a statement regarding the text rather than stating that a Magus doesn't have to cast the spell to use spellstrike.
I'm not being obtuse, or deliberately trying to misinterpret your statement, rather demonstrating how easy it is to say something other then what you meant, or interpret something other than what is said.
In the spellstrike description, the present tense of "to cast" put no constraints on the temporality of the clause "he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." The conjunction "whenever" implies a causal relationship between the two clauses. Namely, "whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list," being the casue, and "he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." being the effect. The first clause would have to precede the second temporally, but proximity is still ambiguous.
If the effect were meant to occur during the cause, a different conjuction, such as "while", would have been used. or the present participle "is casting."
Is the argument seriously over whether "when a magus casts" is meant to be temporally localised or extant in perpetuity? Pathfinder books are written and read by real people, who are presumably able to parse meaning out of basic words. We don't need the rulebooks to read like something published by GMT.
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Is the argument seriously over whether "when a magus casts" is meant to be temporally localised or extant in perpetuity? Pathfinder books are written and read by real people, who are presumably able to parse meaning out of basic words. We don't need the rulebooks to read like something published by GMT.
That is, in fact, what the argument boils down to. And while it's quite true that the books are written and read by real people, when those real people parse meaning differently (as is happening in this thread), it can cause arguments. Obviously, in a home game the GM's interpretation is final, but in PFS, where one GM might permit a character to read it one way and another won't, having a more definitive answer is important.
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Why do you think that?Because wands circumvent the Magus' very limited daily spell resources, and the +3 from the spell easily compensates for the -2 from Spell Combat.
Unfortunately, the documentation doesn't say that the magus has to have cast the spell,it says "Whenever a magus casts a spell...and so on."
As I mentioned previously, I agree with the interpretation of the rules given by Grick above. However, it would be nice to have that interpretation validated by paizo staff (at least for those of us in organized play.)
How can a Magus use Spellstrike if he didn't cast the spell?
That is what you said.
Unfortunately, the documentation doesn't say that the magus has to have cast the spellIf you had put quotes in you would have made a statement regarding the text rather than stating that a Magus doesn't have to cast the spell to use spellstrike.
I'm not being obtuse, or deliberately trying to misinterpret your statement, rather demonstrating how easy it is to say something other then what you meant, or interpret something other than what is said.
In the spellstrike description, the present tense of "to cast" put no constraints on the temporality of the clause "he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." The conjunction "whenever" implies a causal relationship between the two clauses. Namely, "whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list," being the casue, and "he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." being the effect. The first clause would have to precede the second temporally, but proximity is still ambiguous.
If the effect were meant to occur during the cause, a different conjuction, such as "while", would have been used. or the present participle "is casting."
Wand wielder
Wand Wielder (Su): The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.
Spellstrike
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
SKR comment:
It's more of a corner case, but would Magus Spell Combat (if it allows casting other class' slots to begin with) allow casting SLAs as part of Spell Combat? (assuming the spell is also on the Magus list)No, because he actually has to be casting one of his magus spells from his magus spell list ("... [he] can also cast any spell from the magus spell list ..."), not a spell-like ability that happens to have the same name as a spell from the magus spell list.
(As a related example, a druid/magus who had flaming sphere prepared as a druid spell shouldn't be able to cast it with spell combat just because it's also on the magus spell list. Even if the druid/magus had flaming sphere prepared as a druid spell and a magus spell, he shouldn't be able to cast his druid copy of that spell as part of spell combat because spell combat is about casting your magus spells in melee combat, and I doubt the casting of a druid's flaming sphere works the same way as the magus spell.)
Spellstrike has the same text:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, so the same limitation should apply.So wand wielder allow you to activate a wand while using spell combat, but don't allow you to use spellstrike with the spell you have cast with the wand.
Spellstrike require you to use one of the spell you have memorized as magus.
Same thing for Quantum Steve and teribithia9 question. SKR comment make clear that you must cast one of the spell you have memorized as a magus.
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About the whole discussion on "after the spell id cast the touch is locked in one position":
agus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/07/12
Official Rules Response
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Updated FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9r3x
Magus, spellstrike: If I cast a spell that allows multiple touch attacks, can I deliver all of those spell touches through my weapon?
Yes. For example, if you cast chill touch (which allows multiple touch attacks), you could use spellstrike to cast and deliver the spell through your weapon, and in later weapon attacks you could use your weapon to deliver the remaining spell touch attacks (one spell touch attack per weapon attack).
If you have multiple attacks per round with that weapon (such as from having a BAB of +6 or higher), you can use the weapon to deliver multiple spell touch attacks per round, so long as you have uses of that spell touch attack remaining.
For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1) and you cast chill touch, you have up to 8 uses of that spell touch attack. If you make two weapon attacks in a round, you can deliver two spell touch attacks per round (one for each successful weapon attack).