Chief Technical Officer
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I did not get a single lottery event or game, not even one i put as a 2 or 3!
Can that be right? If so, i'm kind of disappointed. I thought i would have at least gotten into one lottery game.
Not to sound like a bummer but that sort of stinks!
It is a bummer, but we verified the results... you just had the bad luck of coming up late in the queue on both Friday and Saturday, and all of the events you had ranked for those days were already filled before your number came up. You had an earlier pick for Sunday, but you had only one ranked event for that day, and it was already full.
I'll be joining you:0 Rough going!
I....... I didn't have much luck either. I got one game that I put a "1" in. Eh, it's something, I guess. Saturday night.
It will be the seminar circuit for me I guess.
I did get into the mini-painting groups. Those will be fun.
But you got company, Marc.
Well, I did sign up for games that didn't conflict with seminars I plan to attend, which narrowed it down quite a bit. Hell, I'm not complaining. I'm really going there to learn, and I'm still on target for that!
Wow. I'll have a lot more 'free' time than I expected. Not that that is bad, lots of room for PFS.
But there are certain tables that I will be very jealous of.
I would guess that enough people gave most of the events a nonzero rating that the lottery either didn't get around to a second choice, or if it did, it didn't run for long. I usually play PFS with my Gencon buddies who won't be at Paizocon, so looks like it's time to bust out a new character. Cool!
I did not get a single lottery event or game, not even one i put as a 2 or 3!
Can that be right? If so, i'm kind of disappointed. I thought i would have at least gotten into one lottery game.
Not to sound like a bummer but that sort of stinks!
I had that happen before (though I did get one of my choices this year!), and it is disappointing. But I would also keep an eye open for some open games in the open rooms. Im going to start another thread about that, since I think its possible to do even better there...
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It does kind of suck, but the lottery are really limited events so it happens sometimes you don't get much. I only got the one this year and it was pretty low on my list. Actually, I'll be done with official gaming at this con by about the time everyone else gets there. lol. BUT that puts you in good company, and there are lots of games going on including pfs and some games in the free gaming area. Also, some of us will be regulars at the hotel bar... I expect to be in that group. So say, hi, grab a drink, maybe play some PFS or some such. I personally have had fun every year, even and I'd say ESPECIALLY last year, when my schedule was very very slim.
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I think this also has to do with the fact that each year, we are getting a larger and larger attendance. So, more people to "compete" with for those limited number of slots.
Hey, it happens...even to the guy that started the whole thing. (Three years now of not getting into Liz's Big Trouble in Little China game!)
;-)
That said, don't despair....there are a lot of different event to participate in. I HIGHLY suggest you get in on the Grand Melee event, Friday night at 6. Those 96 slots fill up quickly! ;-)
I got nothing myself. Oh, well -- c'est la vie, you know?
I won't cry over so much spilled milk. I'll just have to attempt to buttonhole the Paizo staff at other times. ;-)
I also got nothing. If I didnt have sideline games available, i would be seriously mad. As is, Ill just be severely dissapointed there isnt a better way to do these things.
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And... none of them! And that's just fine. I figure having been to the first couple Paizocon's and having gotten to play in a number of awesome games already, I have nothing to complain about. Let the new kids have their fun!
Signed up for the Grand Melee - Look out Tim - you know we're gunning for ya! Also signed up for some low-level PFS to get a new character leveling - should be fun!
-Pete
I'll be running one PFS adventure "on the books," so to speak. But since I'm rocking frequent-flier mile tickets, I'm actually coming in on Wednesday, and would not be at all averse to running a game or two before the con proper if folks are up for it.
Take heart -- there will be more than enough gaming to go around! :)
I only picked up one lottery event, but after filling out my schedule with open events I am *quite* pleased.
The most fun I've had in previous years has been playing in and running the PFS games for the Awesome people who show up at PaizoCon. Go check it out guys!
Also - the more special events that people sign up to run, the more everyone will get a lottery win. Look ahead for next year!
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I....... I didn't have much luck either. I got one game that I put a "1" in. Eh, it's something, I guess. Saturday night.
It will be the seminar circuit for me I guess.
I did get into the mini-painting groups. Those will be fun.
But you got company, Marc.
I'll be on the seminar circuit with Jim Groves?
Awesome!
I really struck out last year but lucked out this time with a couple of games I think I'll be very happy with. I'm looking forward to many of the panel sessions, off-schedule gaming, meeting folks, and hanging out in the bar. And I'm hoping to get a slot in the home-brew suite again...tasty Golarion brews galore!
M
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Chief Technical Officer
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I also got nothing. If I didnt have sideline games available, i would be seriously mad. As is, Ill just be severely dissapointed there isnt a better way to do these things.
If you have ideas, we're open to listening, but we're pretty convinced that there really *isn't* a better way to do this. The system we devised is about as fair and un-gamable as possible.
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Creative Director
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Yeah ...
Really the only thing I can think of is for maybe more Paizo staff and contributors to run games. The more cool games run by the 'big names' that are offered, the more likely people are to get in at least one lottery game.
The problem there is that "Paizo staff" is a very limited resource.
Last year, I ran three games. That's three 5 hour slots—pretty much took up every morning/afternoon, and as a result, I wasn't able to take part in many seminars and didn't have much of an opportunity to wander the convention and talk with folks at all. I was more or less "locked down" for the majority of the convention... and while that did mean that 5 or so more people got into a Paizo staff game, I'm not sure it was the best use of my time at the convention overall.
I'm only doing 2 games this year, and as a result I'll be in a LOT more seminars, and I'll have some free time to do some unscheduled stuff as well, such as chatting with folks and contributors and the like.
So yeah... as long as PaizoCon keeps growing faster than we can hire new employees to run games... it's going to remain the way it is, alas, as far as I can tell.
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The problem there is that "Paizo staff" is a very limited resource.
I thought Vic was working on a cloning machine. I suppose there is always the inevitable problem of figuring out which is the original James Jacobs when the con is over. Perhaps there could be a James on James deathmatch to see which one gets to survive after the con.
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Yeah ...
Really the only thing I can think of is for maybe more Paizo staff and contributors to run games. The more cool games run by the 'big names' that are offered, the more likely people are to get in at least one lottery game.
The problem there is that "Paizo staff" is a very limited resource.
Last year, I ran three games. That's three 5 hour slots—pretty much took up every morning/afternoon, and as a result, I wasn't able to take part in many seminars and didn't have much of an opportunity to wander the convention and talk with folks at all. I was more or less "locked down" for the majority of the convention... and while that did mean that 5 or so more people got into a Paizo staff game, I'm not sure it was the best use of my time at the convention overall.
I'm only doing 2 games this year, and as a result I'll be in a LOT more seminars, and I'll have some free time to do some unscheduled stuff as well, such as chatting with folks and contributors and the like.
So yeah... as long as PaizoCon keeps growing faster than we can hire new employees to run games... it's going to remain the way it is, alas, as far as I can tell.
Oh totally!
I mean we need to get Vic and Lisa running some games!
If you have ideas, we're open to listening, but we're pretty convinced that there really *isn't* a better way to do this. The system we devised is about as fair and un-gamable as possible.
While I have liked how the lottery has been held up to this point, I think given the growth the lottery needs to be reduced to a single random draw for the whole Convention. Removing the PFS scenarios/seminars from the lottery makes sense, but it changes the overall dynamic.
Unless you do as Pat suggests, and implement a huge incentive for people to volunteer unique games to run, the pool of lottery items is going to easily be exceeded by the number of attendees. While "three chances to get first pick for the day" sounds good in theory, with such a small pool of options being lottery'd, it boils down to far more randomness in distribution.
I suggest expanding the rankings system up to 6 or 10, and making the lottery a single run from first to last pick, then from last to first (and onward if needed). The expanded ratings would be needed for people to prioritize an expanded list of options appropriately.
While leveling the distribution, this would also in some cases actually *increase* the accuracy of matching - since someone may highly rank an event only because nothing else on that day is more appealing.
Under the current system, it seems like if you're running a game you end up with actually *less* chance of getting into the lottery events than otherwise
This is not so. The chance is the same, merely the possible selection is reduced. Unless you're completely blocked off for a day of course - but that wouldn't change by putting them in a different pool.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah ...
Really the only thing I can think of is for maybe more Paizo staff and contributors to run games. The more cool games run by the 'big names' that are offered, the more likely people are to get in at least one lottery game.
I usually run 2 games each PaizoCon and was planning to run a couple of sessions but... stuff happened. [insert string of lame excuses here]
I will be running a table at the Friday Grand Melee and may try to pull together a last-minute off-board game.
But it's true; PaizoCon can only post what people submit to run. Want a session? MAKE a session!
At the same time, I think it would help if there was some kind of preference bump for people who are running sessions, because they have fewer open slots available to be able to rank events. They're already behind the 8-ball for being able to find stuff they'd like because they won't be able to rank any contemporaneous events at all.
I would also say +1 to the idea of a whole-con ranked lottery rather than by-day ranking. That would increase the chances of any given attendee getting SOMETHING vs. the chance of a handful of attendees getting SEVERAL things while others get zip.
I....... I didn't have much luck either. I got one game that I put a "1" in. Eh, it's something, I guess. Saturday night.
It will be the seminar circuit for me I guess.
I did get into the mini-painting groups. Those will be fun.
But you got company, Marc.
I'll be on the seminar circuit with Jim Groves?
Awesome!
You just made my week.
:D
I also got nothing. If I didnt have sideline games available, i would be seriously mad. As is, Ill just be severely dissapointed there isnt a better way to do these things.If you have ideas, we're open to listening, but we're pretty convinced that there really *isn't* a better way to do this. The system we devised is about as fair and un-gamable as possible.
Vic-
Please dont take what I said as any indication I dont think you guys are doing the best you can. I know from personal experience (I was at your and Lisa's table last year at the banquet, with Bill W. and Greg V.) you all go above and beyond the call at this convention to make sure everyone has a good time.
And we do. In spades. Dont know if you all hear that enough, either.
Any of us who say were not bummed we dont get to hang out with you guys is lying. We're fans, so we want to get into every game with all you guys. I know it cant happen, and its disappointing when it works out we cant get in ANY games. But, as someone who has spent time with the Paizo staff (and probably will after hours again), I can stand aside and let someone else have a game.
Very much looking forward to seeing you all this year,
SG
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I also got nothing. If I didnt have sideline games available, i would be seriously mad. As is, Ill just be severely dissapointed there isnt a better way to do these things.If you have ideas, we're open to listening, but we're pretty convinced that there really *isn't* a better way to do this. The system we devised is about as fair and un-gamable as possible.Vic-
Please dont take what I said as any indication I dont think you guys are doing the best you can. I know from personal experience (I was at your and Lisa's table last year at the banquet, with Bill W. and Greg V.) you all go above and beyond the call at this convention to make sure everyone has a good time.
And we do. In spades. Dont know if you all hear that enough, either.
Any of us who say were not bummed we dont get to hang out with you guys is lying. We're fans, so we want to get into every game with all you guys. I know it cant happen, and its disappointing when it works out we cant get in ANY games. But, as someone who has spent time with the Paizo staff (and probably will after hours again), I can stand aside and let someone else have a game.
Very much looking forward to seeing you all this year,
SG
VERY well said!
I got ZERO events too. I figured I'd at least get ONE. Even something that was like my 6th choice.
Gamers tend to have somewhat similar tastes. Even if only 1/3 of the con matched your tastes (roughly), the average "choice" that people would get would be around 10th (assuming there were enough things to pick from to hit 20th).
Under the current system, it seems like if you're running a game you end up with actually *less* chance of getting into the lottery events than otherwiseThis is not so. The chance is the same, merely the possible selection is reduced. Unless you're completely blocked off for a day of course - but that wouldn't change by putting them in a different pool.
Having five hour events overlap each other does. Maybe that is the way it has to be to fit everything in in three days. Both my volunteer slots start at 8 am, and end at 1:00. The next slot of games starts at 12:00 (many of my 4s :) so I could not sign up for any of them. Because of the banquet on Saturday and the official end in the afternoon on Sunday, this only left me two gaming slots to even try for. Fortunately, there are a lot of seminars I wanted to attend at these times :)
Possible options?
1. less overlap in the gaming slots (if it is even realistic?)
2. sell tickets to certain games like you do the banquet: If James only has two gaming slots, sell tickets for one (for $0 or 'proceeds to Tsunami recovery' etc.)
3. offer a certain games (or earlier lottery) to a select few: third consecutive paizocon, winners of last year's banquet quiz, those who need a passport to attend, etc.
Wow only two-ish weeks to go!
Having five hour events overlap each other does. Maybe that is the way it has to be to fit everything in in three days. Both my volunteer slots start at 8 am, and end at 1:00. The next slot of games starts at 12:00 (many of my 4s :) so I could not sign up for any of them. Because of the banquet on Saturday and the official end in the afternoon on Sunday, this only left me two gaming slots to even try for. Fortunately, there are a lot of seminars I wanted to attend at these times :)
Friday first events are from 9-1p, with many games starting at 12, yes. Saturday all the afternoon games start at 1pm, so no overlap.
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Chief Technical Officer
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If you have ideas, we're open to listening, but we're pretty convinced that there really *isn't* a better way to do this. The system we devised is about as fair and un-gamable as possible.Well, I have a couple of ideas - though, I'm not sure that this isn't already being done.
The way I understand it, each day you take a list of the names of everybody in the lottery, put them all in a stack in a random order. Pull the first one off the stack, look at all their #4 picks that have space open, and give them one at random. If none of their #4 picks have space, go to their #3, then 2, then 1 picks. Only if no games that they put any ranks into have any open slots do they not get anything.
If that's correct, one thing I would add is some kind of ranking system for the players, too. For example, divide everybody into three groups: People who're volunteering to run games, people who haven't gotten a game yet, and people who already have received one of their picks. (Obviously, that last group won't exist on the first pass.) Then start with group 1, the DMs. Then, everybody who hasn't gotten into a game yet, then everybody else. When somebody gets into a game, they then move into the last category, and have less of chance getting into a second, and those who haven't gotten into a game yet have a better chance of getting one. Prioritizing players like this might have the effect of evening things out, so most people get exactly one lottery game instead of some getting two or three and others getting none.
The GMs getting priority definitely doesn't make things more fair (although I doubt all that many people would mind that particular brand of unfairness.)
But later rounds prioritizing people who haven't gotten events yet would have some less-than-ideal side effects. A game that's in the third round of assignments could be filled up with people who only ranked it a "1" because everybody who ranked it higher already got an event on a previous day. While it's true that that would get more people into an event, it would also get people who are less enthusiastic about that game, and that's probably a table that would be less fun.
Also, the system could be gamed, in that you could increase your chances of getting into a hot event on Sunday by not ranking any events on Friday or Saturday. We really want the system to function best when people rank a high number of events honestly.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I suggest expanding the rankings system up to 6 or 10, and making the lottery a single run from first to last pick, then from last to first (and onward if needed). The expanded ratings would be needed for people to prioritize an expanded list of options appropriately.
I know we contemplated the full-con system when we designed this process, but I don't currently recall the reason we rejected it. I'd have to consult with Gary on that one.
Expanding the ratings system only helps when the system needs to choose between multiple events for you, and right now, the problem is the opposite—it's not that most people have three "4" events to choose from when their turn is up, but that they don't have *any* events. If that problem gets solved, I could see a use for increased granularity... but I can also see how asking people to rate all those events with higher granularity could take more of their time and be more frustrating.
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Chief Technical Officer
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VERY well said!I also got nothing. If I didnt have sideline games available, i would be seriously mad. As is, Ill just be severely dissapointed there isnt a better way to do these things.If you have ideas, we're open to listening, but we're pretty convinced that there really *isn't* a better way to do this. The system we devised is about as fair and un-gamable as possible.Vic-
Please dont take what I said as any indication I dont think you guys are doing the best you can. I know from personal experience (I was at your and Lisa's table last year at the banquet, with Bill W. and Greg V.) you all go above and beyond the call at this convention to make sure everyone has a good time.
And we do. In spades. Dont know if you all hear that enough, either.
Any of us who say were not bummed we dont get to hang out with you guys is lying. We're fans, so we want to get into every game with all you guys. I know it cant happen, and its disappointing when it works out we cant get in ANY games. But, as someone who has spent time with the Paizo staff (and probably will after hours again), I can stand aside and let someone else have a game.
Very much looking forward to seeing you all this year,
SG
Thanks, guys!
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Chief Technical Officer
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Have you tried going in order of when people pre-reg and haveing each person pick one event and rotate through until each event is full. At least that way people can pick what they really want to try for first, instead of picking a bunch of games then trying to trade them off.
We don't want people to have a less interesting time just because they found about about the convention later than somebody else... and we also don't want our servers to crash and burn by encouraging everybody to register at the exact same time.
As it is, you *can* pick what you really want to try for first—give those things your highest rankings, and give everything else lower rankings. Your rankings are relative to *you*, not to everyone else's rankings.
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Chief Technical Officer
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...offer a certain games (or earlier lottery) to a select few: third consecutive paizocon, winners of last year's banquet quiz, those who need a passport to attend, etc.
We don't want first-time attendees to automatically have less fun than people who have been to the show before. I can see an argument for volunteers and GMs getting early picks, but I still think random draws help us provide the best experiences for the most people.
We don't want first-time attendees to automatically have less fun than people who have been to the show before. I can see an argument for volunteers and GMs getting early picks, but I still think random draws help us provide the best experiences for the most people.
While it didn't really work out to my benefit this time I still think it's the way to go. It could just as easily have gone the other way.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I know we contemplated the full-con system when we designed this process, but I don't currently recall the reason we rejected it. I'd have to consult with Gary on that one.
Ok, I remember now. In previous years, we had fewer attendees in the lottery, and so we were able to get many of them into three or four lottery events. The multi-day system helped us ensure that they were more likely to have something scheduled each day instead of giving them one really busy day. Now that the ratio of attendees to lottery events has changed (partly because we have more attendees, but mostly because we took Pathfinder Society events out of the lottery), maybe the full-con system would be better.
...offer a certain games (or earlier lottery) to a select few: third consecutive paizocon, winners of last year's banquet quiz, those who need a passport to attend, etc.We don't want first-time attendees to automatically have less fun than people who have been to the show before. I can see an argument for volunteers and GMs getting early picks, but I still think random draws help us provide the best experiences for the most people.
Thanks Vic.
EDIT: Oh and thanks (to you or whomever) for breaking the schedule into tabs for the different days. I was really struggling to recognize the days when I was scrolling back and forth :)
Now that the ratio of attendees to lottery events has changed (partly because we have more attendees, but mostly because we took Pathfinder Society events out of the lottery), maybe the full-con system would be better.
Exactly.
And the 4-star rating is plenty for single-day lottery, it's just not quite enough for the full weekend I think.
