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Only the armor and shield bonuses cease to function. Constant powers that do not require activation continue to work.
But you haven't proved that the rhino charge effect is constant.
You feel that it is constant, I am convinced that it is use activated by the action of charging. None of us has proved that his opinion is right. Both are opinions based on our reading of what "use activated" against "constant" mean.
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I don't believe this line of argument works because the druid appears to be casting one polymorph effect to get into horse shape and have the shoes put on (which party member has Craft: blacksmithing to do that by the way?) , then using another (with a completely different starting point) to meld the shoes. So if the shoes are on then they certainly do meld when he shifts to kitty because its the start of a new, overriding polymorph effect.From the magic section:
"When you cast a polymorph spell ... all of your gear melds into your body. "Note that melding occurs when you cast the spell, not when the spell ends. Polymorph spells have no effect when their duration ENDS. So he polymorphs into the horse, puts the shoes on. Then when the spell ENDS (when he takes human form) the horseshoes are on the ground at his feet.
Eh, the impression I got was that the player assumed they were on all the time.
Regardless the one spell ENDS and all it's effects end before the other starts. Otherwise I could wild shape into a Gargantuan creature, pick up the size bonus to strength, then polymorph into another form.
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Except all armor is deactivated in their wild shape and pollymorph forms.1.) Rhino hide armor gives +2d6 damage on a charge. Since a cat form pounces for five attacks (bite, claw x2, rake x2), that's a potential total of +10d6 from armor that costs only 5,165 gp (A bargain at twice the price!). I interpret the rules' intent to mean +2d6 on one attack per charge, which must be designated prior to the roll. Is this correct?
-All of the attacks are made on a charge, so they all get the +2d6.
No it isn't.
Only the armor and shield bonuses cease to function. Constant powers that do not require activation continue to work.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
And since the charge bonus is use activated (it only works during a charge and charge requires a standard action to activate making this is a use activated ability) it doesn't work by RAW.
The Horseshoes trick is a different issue;
IF the druid wants to burn a use of wildshape to turn into a horse and then take the time to have the shoes fitted on and THEN shift into another form (burning their last use of Wildshape for the day) then yes they can have the shoes work.
BUT ONLY UNTIL THEY RETURN TO NORMAL FORM.
(Remember the melding only works while shapechange, once that's done everything comes off)
This trick will require them to burn all their daily wildshapes plus however long it takes to get shoe'd (I'd say an hour since that's how long I've seen it take) all for a +30 to speed.
Go for it.
The pounce works, they can charge, full attack and get off a rake all in the same round. However nothing in either description states that it doesn't need to grapple it's target before raking. The pounce ability just states it can rake in the round it charged not that it doesn't need to grapple first.
Regardless the one spell ENDS and all it's effects end before the other starts.
There's nothing in the rules to support this. If one effect is stopping another effect from occurring then either 1 is in effect or the other is. If the second polymorph effect is in effect then merging happens. If the second polymorph effect is not in effect yet then nothing stops the first one from happening. There is nothing to indicate that there is some increment of time that neither of them are in effect.
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Regardless the one spell ENDS and all it's effects end before the other starts.There's nothing in the rules to support this. If one effect is stopping another effect from occurring then either 1 is in effect or the other is. If the second polymorph effect is in effect then merging happens. If the second polymorph effect is not in effect yet then nothing stops the first one from happening. There is nothing to indicate that there is some increment of time that neither of them are in effect.
It's a good thing there are intelligent people interpreting the rules then so they don't get applied blinding. Oh wait...!
And since the charge bonus is use activated (it only works during a charge and charge requires a standard action to activate making this is a use activated ability) it doesn't work by RAW.
-This is a completely different argument. I don't think this one works either.
The rhino armor does not require a standard action to activate. That would make it impossible to use in the same round as charge.
It is a given that some magic items are supposed to work while wildshaped. However the rules state
"To use a magic item, it must be activated"
What you're arguing is that "use activation" counts as this. The problem is that EVERY magic item has some sort of activation method (including just wearing it)
The four ways to activate magic items are Spell completion, Spell trigger, Command word, and Use activated. (some specific parts about command words removed)
So the idea that any magic item that has to be activated won't work in wildshape is false. (since all items are activated somehow) This leaves us with the question of HOW the item is activated to determine if it works in wildshape or not.
"In most cases, though, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
This is clearly not the case with the rhino armor.
Of those four, Rhino armor is clearly use activated. It works when you charge. Note that there is no "non activated" or "just wear it" category, so there is no contradiction between a use activated item and something you just need to wear" an item is not one or the other. All items that you just put on and don't worry about are use activated items (wearing is the use)
Under use activated we have
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Rhino Hide lacks this. There is no command word, Click your hooves together three times, or click your heels together like the boots of speed. It is as non active as an item can get. It doesn't require you do do anything separately as an action or even as a non action. All you have to do is wear the armor and charge.
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, though, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
The four ways to activate magic items are described below.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
It's a good thing there are intelligent people interpreting the rules then so they don't get applied blinding. Oh wait...!
So anyone that subscribes to your unsupported, arbitrary, assumptions that there MUST be some overlapping time between effects with multiple parts AND that said parts must go into effect in the order that you want them to is intelligent, but i am NOT intelligent for disagreeing with you?
You are assuming, without basis, that the second effect is somehow ending the first BEFORE the second effect goes into effect. That is
1)not stated in the rules
2) Not dictated by logic: There is no reason that 0 time is impossible in a game system
3) Completely arbitrary as to what happens first. Perhaps the second effect begins the melding before shutting off the previous effect. That's just as valid, rules and "reality" wise as saying that the previous effect ends and then the melding begins.
Intelligence has a different definition than happening to agree with you. I don't appreciate thinly veiled, backhanded insults as a response to a point i make.
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And since the charge bonus is use activated (it only works during a charge and charge requires a standard action to activate making this is a use activated ability) it doesn't work by RAW.-This is a completely different argument. I don't think this one works either.
The rhino armor does not require a standard action to activate. That would make it impossible to use in the same round as charge.
It is a given that some magic items are supposed to work while wildshaped. However the rules state
"To use a magic item, it must be activated"
What you're arguing is that "use activation" counts as this. The problem is that EVERY magic item has some sort of activation method (including just wearing it)
The four ways to activate magic items are Spell completion, Spell trigger, Command word, and Use activated. (some specific parts about command words removed)
So the idea that any magic item that has to be activated won't work in wildshape is false. (since all items are activated somehow) This leaves us with the question of HOW the item is activated to determine if it works in wildshape or not.
"In most cases, though, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
I see what you are saying but will have to disagree.
Is a +1 sword use activated or a fortified armor? No it always has that effect whether you are touching it or not.Look at it this way, if it always has that power whether it's sitting on the floor or in your hand, that's a constant effect. If it requires you to do ANYTHING that costs ANY kind of action it's not constant.
Rhino armor requires you to spend a standard action to charge, when you spend that action it gives you this bonus, if you don't spend it you don't get the bonus.
I see what you are saying but will have to disagree.
Same here, but i think i'll take one more shot at it. I think part of the problem is that the type of allowed item isn't very well defined.
Is a +1 sword use activated or a fortified armor? No it always has that effect whether you are touching it or not.
Both are use activated. The use for the sword is swinging, the use for the armor is wearing.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Wearing the armor and swinging the sword are in the same category. So no, the fortification armor actually isn't fortifying anything when its sitting on the ground.
Look at it this way, if it always has that power whether it's sitting on the floor or in your hand, that's a constant effect. If it requires you to do ANYTHING that costs ANY kind of action it's not constant
-That isn't the distinction the game makes
Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Rhino hide is something worn, something borrowed, something blu.. wait a minute.
Rhino hide is something worn. It isn't command word activated, and it isn't even willingly activated. It just happens.
This is all fairly moot for the druid anyway. If you rule that you can't wildshape into rhino armor, all the druid has to do is commission rhino hide barding and find an armorer that isn't allergic to cats. (should probably do that anyway, so you get the armor bonus and the +2 enhancement bonus)
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So those who think druids can absorb multiple sets of gear are perfectly ok with a lvl 20 druid absorbing infinite amounts of gear? as they can wildshape at will. I can't wait to roll up a druid in your game.... no need to buy much upgraded gear when i can just stack as much as I want. And I can wear all types of gear, for any type of creature I can turn into no matter my current form!
Okay first off,
The number of times you ploymorph is not relevant at all, the polymorph WILL by virtue of its function always absorb all gear that meets the criteria from the previous form so how much gear you absorb is up to you and what you choose to wear...
And secondly,
And there again there is no limit to what you could then wear but as the Magic item Rules do in fact state quite clearly that you may have only one functioning magic item per slot that your character has, it wouldnt take much of a gm to figure out how to handle that situation.
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Okay so far the majority consensus seems to be this.
1) Rhino hide does grant the +2d6 damage per attack but we dont neccesarily like it.
2) The horshoe trick works but we think its kinda dumb and cheesy.
3 and Pounce functions for all 5 attacks on the charge.
So essentially when we focus on just the rules, It works.
I havent seen any arguments to disprove the theory yet without any of the fluff or intension arguments that is.
Okay so far the majority consensus seems to be this.
1) Rhino hide does grant the +2d6 damage per attack but we dont neccesarily like it.
2) The horshoe trick works but we think its kinda dumb and cheesy.
3 and Pounce functions for all 5 attacks on the charge.
So essentially when we focus on just the rules, It works.
I havent seen any arguments to disprove the theory yet without any of the fluff or intension arguments that is.
I haven't seen a rebuttal to the (admittedly slightly rules lawyery)contention that the horseshoes work specifically when they're attached to the creatures hooves.
But yes. Someone in another thread wanted to know what CODzilia was.... this is a good example.
My best advice to the dm is to use mooks to block the charge. The charging rules are VERY (insanely) specific about anything getting in your way. Rocks, caltrdops, 1 hd kobolds, your fellow party members, marbles, obscured vision, rough ground etc can all keep him from charging.
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I see what you are saying but will have to disagree.
Same here, but i think i'll take one more shot at it. I think part of the problem is that the type of allowed item isn't very well defined.
Is a +1 sword use activated or a fortified armor? No it always has that effect whether you are touching it or not.Both are use activated. The use for the sword is swinging, the use for the armor is wearing.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Wearing the armor and swinging the sword are in the same category. So no, the fortification armor actually isn't fortifying anything when its sitting on the ground.
Look at it this way, if it always has that power whether it's sitting on the floor or in your hand, that's a constant effect. If it requires you to do ANYTHING that costs ANY kind of action it's not constant-That isn't the distinction the game makes
Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Rhino hide is something worn, something borrowed, something blu.. wait a minute.
Rhino hide is something worn. It isn't command word activated, and it isn't even willingly activated. It just happens.
This is all fairly moot for the druid anyway. If you rule that you can't wildshape into rhino armor, all the druid has to do is commission rhino hide barding and find an armorer that isn't allergic to cats....
you are right that it is less then perfectly worded and the fluff statement merely confuses the issue. This is why the devs have stated repeatedly the fluff description on items is immaterial, look at the stated effect.
A +1 sword is always a +1 whether you swing it or not, it's a passive constant effect that is always on. Same with Fortification, just because it's not giving you that effect when you aren't wearing it it's still always providing it. I picked these 2 because of their activation requirements:Activation: Usually a character benefits from magic armor
and shields in exactly the way a character benefits from
nonmagical armor and shields: by wearing them. If armor or
a shield has a special ability that the user needs to activate,
then the user usually needs to utter the command word (a
standard action).
Wearing an item doesn't require any action type to use it, it takes one to BENEFIT from it (putting it on) but after that the effect is constant. Special Abilities require a standard action to USE them (it states command word as one of the usual possibilities to use it), CHARGE is another option since it requires a standard action as well.
If it was a constant effect it would apply the +2D6 damage to any attack action and not have any conditions on when it works.
Could it have been worded better, of course but the stated requirement of you taking a specific standard action should be clear enough.
If it was a constant effect it would apply the +2D6 damage to any attack action and not have any conditions on when it works.
By that logic fortification armor isn't a constant effect because it only blocks the damage X % of the time, not constantly.
Could it have been worded better, of course but the stated requirement of you taking a specific standard action should be clear enough.
I think its pretty clear that the standard action is to activate the item. The action required to activate rhino hide armor is none: It is not a standard action to activate rhino hide armor, it is not a move action to activate rhino armor, it is not a free action to activate rhino armor, it is not a swift action to activate rhino armor, it is not an immediate action to active rhino armor: it is completely subsumed in the act of charging, bypassing all command words and time required to do so. That's what i think the rules are for, making sure you're not saying "fliberty gibbert" and using command word items in cow form.
Also, who on earth would wear this besides druids? If it isn't made for them and to work with their main ability then who is it made for? Fighters paranoid about shocking grasp?
Okay, so far the majority consensus seems to be this:
1) Rhino hide does grant the +2d6 damage per attack, but we don't neccesarily like it.
2) The horseshoe trick works, but we think its kinda dumb and cheesy.
3) and Pounce functions for all 5 attacks on the charge.
Hello Cynis! Good to see your input!
Since we've hashed out the different interpretations, RAW for number 1 and number 3 now both seem fairly clear. Unfortunately, we could argue RAI until the sun goes dark.
I'm intrigued by the idea that one polymorph effect is considered to end when another starts, so I'm trying to find the exact rules wording for that. That view suggests that the horseshoes should fall off when the horse shape ends: I tend to agree with the idea that people can't absorb a functioning magic item after the shapeshifting magic is over.
1) Rhino hide does grant the +2d6 damage per attack but we dont neccesarily like it.
Agreed.
2) The horshoe trick works but we think its kinda dumb and cheesy.
No. This wondrous item functions "when affixed to an animal’s hooves." The druid may look like an animal, but is still a humanoid.
3 and Pounce functions for all 5 attacks on the charge.
If you meet the requirements to make those attacks, yes. The description of pounce doesn't state what requirements are lifted.
The requirements that can be ignored could be the part about "must begin its turn grappling" or "can use only against a grappled foe."
If you think that all requirements are lifted because is says you can make those rake attacks, then you must allow those rake attacks to be used against a foe who is not grappled nor was even the target of the charge. That seems a bit silly to me, but pounce doesn't put any restrictions on that.
I hardly think this clear, one way or the other.
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It's a good thing there are intelligent people interpreting the rules then so they don't get applied blinding. Oh wait...!
So anyone that subscribes to your unsupported, arbitrary, assumptions that there MUST be some overlapping time between effects with multiple parts AND that said parts must go into effect in the order that you want them to is intelligent, but i am NOT intelligent for disagreeing with you?
You are assuming, without basis, that the second effect is somehow ending the first BEFORE the second effect goes into effect. That is
1)not stated in the rules
2) Not dictated by logic: There is no reason that 0 time is impossible in a game system
3) Completely arbitrary as to what happens first. Perhaps the second effect begins the melding before shutting off the previous effect. That's just as valid, rules and "reality" wise as saying that the previous effect ends and then the melding begins.
Intelligence has a different definition than happening to agree with you. I don't appreciate thinly veiled, backhanded insults as a response to a point i make.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Maybe 0 time, but no overlapping time, so no melding before the other spell is shut down.
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If it was a constant effect it would apply the +2D6 damage to any attack action and not have any conditions on when it works.By that logic fortification armor isn't a constant effect because it only blocks the damage X % of the time, not constantly.
Fortification armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time a critical hit or sneak attack affects it's wearer and it does that every time. Whether it blocks the damage or not isn't it's power, merely that it constantly grants the fortification effect to it's user. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it.
Could it have been worded better, of course but the stated requirement of you taking a specific standard action should be clear enough.I think its pretty clear that the standard action is to activate the item. The action required to activate rhino hide armor is none: It is not a standard action to activate rhino hide armor, it is not a move action to activate rhino armor, it is not a free action to activate rhino armor, it is not a swift action to activate rhino armor, it is not an immediate action to active rhino armor: it is completely subsumed in the act of charging, bypassing all command words and time required to do so. That's what i think the rules are for, making sure you're not saying "fliberty gibbert" and using command word items in cow form.
This is where we are disagreeing, I'm of the opinion that because there is a standard action involved in getting the effect to work that fulfills the requirement of making it use-activated. You seem to be of the opinion that since it doesn't state you must use X action to use this ability then it's a constant effect. Both aguments seem to have merit but only one of them can be right, until a Dev weighs in we will have to agree to disagree.
Also, who on earth would wear this besides druids? If it isn't made for them and to work with their main ability then who is it made for? Fighters paranoid about shocking grasp?
Free hand fighters, Beast Totem Barbarians, All Cavaliers, pretty much anyone who would think charging into a fight is a good idea.
Fortification armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time a critical hit or sneak attack affects it's wearer and it does that every time. Whether it blocks the damage or not isn't it's power, merely that it constantly grants the fortification effect to it's user. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it.
Rhino hide armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time its wearer charges and it does that every time. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it.
This is where we are disagreeing, I'm of the opinion that because there is a standard action involved in getting the effect to work that fulfills the requirement of making it use-activated.
All magic items that are not spell trigger spell completion, or command word are use activated.
Under use activated we have two different types.
Unless stated otherwise, [b]activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. [/b]
ACTIVATING the rhino armor is not a standard action. What you do that causes the armor to activate is a slightly different question.
If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
-The rhino hides activation is subsumed into the charge. I don't see another catagory of use here where items druids COULD use would go.
Free hand fighters, Beast Totem Barbarians, All Cavaliers, pretty much anyone who would think charging into a fight is a good idea.
These classes and archetypes that were invented 10? years after this armor. Rhino hide has been around for a while, i don't think they changed the wording from 3.0. It practically has "Property of druid" written on the tag in the back, and it would be odd if it wasn't supposed to work with the druid class.
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1)Fortification armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time a critical hit or sneak attack affects it's wearer and it does that every time. Whether it blocks the damage or not isn't it's power, merely that it constantly grants the fortification effect to it's user. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it.2)This is where we are disagreeing, I'm of the opinion that because there is a standard action involved in getting the effect to work that fulfills the requirement of making it use-activated. You seem to be of the opinion that since it doesn't state you must use X action to use this ability then it's a constant effect. Both aguments seem to have merit but only one of them can be right, until a Dev weighs in we will have to agree to disagree.
Hello there Sir_Wulf :)
okay @ Mathwei ap Niall
1) let me show you something ...
Rhino hide armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time a charge attack affects it's target and it does that every time. Whether it adds damage or not isn't it's power, merely that it constantly grants the +2d6 damage effect to it's user. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it(Notice any similarities to the by the quote from you posted above?)
My example here is an attempt to show you your argument is circular and does not support itself, I disprove your example by showing you further proof, IF in fact the fortification armor in this example is not use activated as YOU claim and instead provides a blanket effect because of this sentence.
"Whenever the wearer is hit by a critical hit"
Then by the same token why can the rhino hide not be a blanket effect if you gain benefit from this one.
"Whenever the wearer makes a successful charge attack"
2)And here you are attempting to apply rules from one section of the book to another...you say and I quote...
"I'm of the opinion that because there is a standard action involved in getting the effect to work that fulfills the requirement of making it use-activated"
however in an earlier post you said this...
"Activation: Usually a character benefits from magic armor
and shields in exactly the way a character benefits from
nonmagical armor and shields: by wearing them. If armor or
a shield has a special ability that the user needs to activate,
then the user usually needs to utter the command word (a
standard action)."
-first off there is no such command word needed for rhino hide , no support for this argument there...second the standard action requirement is directly qouted by you to be tied to the activation of the item not to the action that might benefit from it, Im sorry sir but you have disproved your own theory.
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Fortification armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time a critical hit or sneak attack affects it's wearer and it does that every time. Whether it blocks the damage or not isn't it's power, merely that it constantly grants the fortification effect to it's user. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it.Rhino hide armor works 100% of the time. It is designed to activate every time its wearer charges and it does that every time. That is what makes it a constant effect, it requires no action on it's wearers part to use it.
No, it doesn't, Fortification will proc in your sleep, when you're sitting on the toilet, hanging upside down in a net or on someone else's turn. It requires no action from the wielder to activate. Rhino armor only works in the narrow time frame when the wearer uses a standard action. Constant effects are constant, you don't have to do anything to activate their benefits. This item only provides it's benefit when you burn a standard action.
This is the basic point you won't accept, Constant effects require no action on the wielders part to function. Rhino armor does, ergo not a constant effect.
This is where we are disagreeing, I'm of the opinion that because there is a standard action involved in getting the effect to work that fulfills the requirement of making it use-activated.All magic items that are not spell trigger spell completion, or command word are use activated.
Under use activated we have two different types.
Unless stated otherwise, [b]activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. [/b]
ACTIVATING the rhino armor is not a standard action. What you do that causes the armor to activate is a slightly different question.
If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.-The rhino hides activation is subsumed into the charge. I don't see another catagory of use here where items druids COULD use would go.
But it can provoke an Attack of Opportunity, and it requires a target to move at least 10 feet before working and that is not an instant time effect, cool. Thanks for the extra ammo there, I think you found enough proof there to show it's not a constant effect.
Free hand fighters, Beast Totem Barbarians, All Cavaliers, pretty much anyone who would think charging into a fight is a good idea.These classes and archetypes that were invented 10? years after this armor. Rhino hide has been around...
And your point is? They get the benefit from it too, that was the only criteria requested.
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Okay a couple new points of interest.
1) Rhino hide issue, At this point I understand your point though I dont agree , We can obviously argue this till were blue in the face with no result, it would be helpful if we had a developer ruling. :)
2) Horseshoes of speed issue, I have to agree that it does indeed say "when affixed to the animals hooves" here is the question, since they were attached to his hooves and then he wildshapes away from that form do they cease to function? I dont think so as wild shape stipulates that the items of continual effect still work, you dont have it on your waist anymore when you go from druid to animal but you still get your Belt of dex which states clearly "Grants the wearer" in fact all continuous effect items state something similar so by your logic nothing would work in animal form.
3) Pounce definition, heres what pounce says...
"Pounce (ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
Let me put it this way , this says im rolling to hit 5 times with a pouncing lion, and quite frankly if you want to give me a free grapple with the possibiity of attacking with the rakes if I hit, I will take that ruling every time with a smile.
Rhino armor only works in the narrow time frame when the wearer uses a standard action. Constant effects are constant, you don't have to do anything to activate their benefits. This item only provides it's benefit when you burn a standard action.
But charge isn't a standard action. Its usually a full round action. Why is it that someone can use a full round action to charge and still have the special ability of the armor work?
You are flat out mixing up the actions required to activate the item with the actions the item will activate on.
And your point is? They get the benefit from it too, that was the only criteria requested.
My point is that why on earth, for 10 years, would they have an armor specifically tailored for druids that didn't actually do anything for druids ? Doesn't that seem a little odd?
Okay. Easy ruling on the armor. If you are looking for a literal reading of the rules, it says that all bonuses for armor and shields cease to function... All bonuses. It doesn't say all bonuses to ac. So, by the letter of the law, any kind of bonus (including the charge bonus) would fail.
Okay. Easy ruling on the armor. If you are looking for a literal reading of the rules, it says that all bonuses for armor and shields cease to function... All bonuses. It doesn't say all bonuses to ac. So, by the letter of the law, any kind of bonus (including the charge bonus) would fail.
As much as I would love for it be so simple, you mind letting us in on where you found this elusive passage?
Because if you are referring to the section on polymorph, there is a difference between "armor and shield bonuses" and "bonuses from armor and shields."
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Regarding the horshoes...
I think one change in perspective that would help in determining whether or not the horseshoes work. Ask yourself, do I as a GM beleive they would work if he turned into a beaver, a snake or a bird? What about a fish? Paws are not hooves, so if they work for a lion, they should work for any wildshaped animal form. I think it unlikely that the designers planned for a snake or fish or bird to use horseshoes of speed. It seems that the issue is clouded by the fact he changed into another quadruped from a horse. If he changed into a plant creature, would they still work, or an elemental?
I don't believe this was intended to be a wildshape haste device at all, but rather allow PC classes with mounts as Animal companions to perform extraordinarily. It also says "animal" not creature or outsider, or fey, so technically a nightmare or centaur could not wear then either. I seriously doubt that even a druid in horse-form was intended to wear them by the description.
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Okay. Easy ruling on the armor. If you are looking for a literal reading of the rules, it says that all bonuses for armor and shields cease to function... All bonuses. It doesn't say all bonuses to ac. So, by the letter of the law, any kind of bonus (including the charge bonus) would fail.
But it doesnt say all bonuses , if it did this interpretation would carry wieght... it says, "all Armor Bonuses" in reference to the AC bonus magical armor gives you, then goes on to specifically state that the continuous effects will continue to operate, hence the argument.
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Regarding the horshoes...
I think one change in perspective that would help in determining whether or not the horseshoes work. Ask yourself, do I as a GM beleive they would work if he turned into a beaver, a snake or a bird? What about a fish? Paws are not hooves, so if they work for a lion, they should work for any wildshaped animal form. I think it unlikely that the designers planned for a snake or fish or bird to use horseshoes of speed. It seems that the issue is clouded by the fact he changed into another quadruped from a horse. If he changed into a plant creature, would they still work, or an elemental? By that logic, he could change into an elf if hes human and retain their use as well.
I don't believe this was intended to be a wildshape haste device at all, but rather allow PC classes with mounts as Animal companions to perform extraordinarily. It also says "animal" not creature or outsider, or fey, so technically a nightmare or centaur could not wear then either. I seriously doubt that even a druid in horse-form was intended to wear them by the description.
My apologies red but I must dispell this thought imediately , this is not a question of intention, thi is at its core a rule argument , no one here will argue that this is a rules lawyer move or a cheesy idea, we need to reference pages or site some sort of functional argument.
I think we have beaten to death the idea that if this were presented at a home campaign it would be laughed off the gaming table, rather than arguing intention please disprove it.
And so again I say this...
here is the question, since they were attached to his hooves and then he wildshapes away from that form do they cease to function? I dont think so as wild shape stipulates that the items of continual effect still work, another rules example would be that you dont have it on your waist anymore when you go from druid to animal but you still get your Belt of dex which states clearly "Grants the wearer" in fact all continuous effect items state something similar so by your logic nothing would work in animal form.
And to take it a step further and arguing against your Intension based point of view, (As per my belt of dex example) Why would the developers have written this ability into the polymorph rules if items not intended for the resulting form would the just not function anyway.
Okay. Easy ruling on the armor. If you are looking for a literal reading of the rules, it says that all bonuses for armor and shields cease to function... All bonuses. It doesn't say all bonuses to ac. So, by the letter of the law, any kind of bonus (including the charge bonus) would fail.As much as I would love for it be so simple, you mind letting us in on where you found this elusive passage?
Because if you are referring to the section on polymorph, there is a difference between "armor and shield bonuses" and "bonuses from armor and shields."
I admit I am purposely trying to oversimplify, but when someone comes into my game trying to pull something like this, I am going to use the rules exactly as written, with no interpretation at all. It says "armor and shield bonuses" in the section on polymorphing. We all know what that means, but what it says is that all armor and shield bonuses are negated. All bonuses, so I would rule that it wouldn't work.
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Rhino armor only works in the narrow time frame when the wearer uses a standard action. Constant effects are constant, you don't have to do anything to activate their benefits. This item only provides it's benefit when you burn a standard action.But charge isn't a standard action. Its usually a full round action. Why is it that someone can use a full round action to charge and still have the special ability of the armor work?
Charge is a special full round action that can be performed if you only have a standard action available. That's why you can still charge when staggered (super zombie attack I call it)
You are flat out mixing up the actions required to activate the item with the actions the item will activate on.
At this point they are pretty much interchangable since it's special cases on top of exceptions on top of vague rulings.
And your point is? They get the benefit from it too, that was the only criteria requested.
My point is that why on earth, for 10 years, would they have an armor specifically tailored for druids that didn't actually do anything for druids ? Doesn't that seem a little odd?
If you want to go back 10 years then you use a rogue or fighter back then. +2d6 on a backstab (since you only got one) or mounted charge was always appreciated back then.
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Boldstar said:
I admit I am purposely trying to oversimplify, but when someone comes into my game trying to pull something like this, I am going to use the rules exactly as written, with no interpretation at all. It says "armor and shield bonuses" in the section on polymorphing. We all know what that means, but what it says is that all armor and shield bonuses are negated. All bonuses, so I would rule that it wouldn't work.Please reference page 461 paizo core rulebook, Armor section, paragraph 1 sentence 2...and I quote...
"Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses."
Additional powers are defined further on page 462 as "special abilities"...please reference the polymorph rules and note that no such special abilities are removed. As such the rhino hide maintains its damage bonuses on the charge.
all armor and shield bonuses are negated does not, in any way shape or form equal all armor and shield special abilities are negated. You're trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Your interpretation would even stop wild armor from working at all. Dm "interpretation" like that is exactly why there are such tight restrictions on society DMing calls.
The armor bonus is specifically, objectively, and clearly the bonus to armor class granted by the armor itself. It even specifies the enhancement bonuses. The enhancement bonus increases the armor bonus to ac. Both of these get negated, so your studded armor +4 doesn't add the +3 from being studded leather OR the +4 to your armor class.
The shield bonus is specifically, objectively, and clearly the shield bonus to armor class. The enhancement is the enchancement bonus to your shield bonus to ac.
Armor special abilities are NOT turned off. The only question here is if charging comes under another clause for being shut off by wildshape.
I see what you are saying now. But one more question.. if in human form he was wearing boots of springing and striding which took up the foot slot, then he changes into horse form, still receiving their benefits, and puts on horseshoes, do they both work? Are items placed on a druid in animal form slotless now? This is sort of the point I was making. The developers never expected to be concerned about a horseshoe slot, because animals dont have slots as far as I know.
I'm not so sure about that, I seem to remember wording to the effect that all creatures are assumed to have the main slots though the magic item might need to be crafted in a different form to be used and fitted. Things like horse shoes would end up being the boot (and probably glove) slot. I want to say an example was a Naga who wore rings on its tail as it had no fingers, necklaces were collars for animals, things of that sort. Basically it was a DMs call on how it worked, but that all creatures should have the ability to be outfitted given the iconic magical item slots.
As for what works for multiples, I'd use the magical rings effect when putting on more than you are allowed to have as a basis for what works.
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-The rhino hides activation is subsumed into the charge. I don't see another catagory of use here where items druids COULD use would go.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
Fortification is constant, it is there independently from you using it or not.
The Rhino Hide "deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer". The bonus is not always there. It activate under specific conditions: a successful charge attack.
So it don't work when the user is pholymorphed as it isn't a constant bonus.
Now we can start another round of "no, it is", "No, it isn't".
Or agree that we have a different opinion and do as we prefer in our home games.
For Society game I hope the appropriate guys from Paizo will give an ruling.
Regarding the horseshoes question:
I have almost no experience with druids (was out of gaming for a long while and then none played in our game), so this might be an accepted thing, but does wildshape let a druid change directly from one animal to another? To me, it says you can turn into an animal and back to normal so many times per day. But I get that this just might be one of those things that "everybody knows because we've been doing it for years".
Regarding the horseshoes question:
I have almost no experience with druids (was out of gaming for a long while and then none played in our game), so this might be an accepted thing, but does wildshape let a druid change directly from one animal to another? To me, it says you can turn into an animal and back to normal so many times per day. But I get that this just might be one of those things that "everybody knows because we've been doing it for years".
Hmmm. I think everyone is assuming (I know I did) that change into an animal or back is just fluff text rather than rules text. The rules text being contained in beast shape. However, a strict reading does not reveal anywhere it says you can change from one animal to another.
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Hmmm. I think everyone is assuming (I know I did) that change into an animal or back is just fluff text rather than rules text. The rules text being contained in beast shape. However, a strict reading does not reveal anywhere it says you can change from one animal to another.Regarding the horseshoes question:
I have almost no experience with druids (was out of gaming for a long while and then none played in our game), so this might be an accepted thing, but does wildshape let a druid change directly from one animal to another? To me, it says you can turn into an animal and back to normal so many times per day. But I get that this just might be one of those things that "everybody knows because we've been doing it for years".
There is no assumption of any kind here, you have a number of times per day you may shift. when you choose to enact a shift is up to you and can absolutely be performed while already in a form other than your base form. This type of very basic question should never really provoke a rules discussion, though I would encourage you to read the section regarding Wild shape.
Pg. 51 paizo core rulebook , According to the Wild shape power the druid may change shape and do so within the listed limitation of her level etc. But there is no mention of needing to be in her base form to activate another Wild Shape.
There is no assumption of any kind here, you have a number of times per day you may shift. when you choose to enact a shift is up to you and can absolutely be performed while already in a form other than your base form. This type of very basic question should never really provoke a rules discussion, though I would encourage you to read the section regarding Wild shape.
Pg. 51 paizo core rulebook , According to the Wild shape power the druid may change shape and do so within the listed limitation of her level etc. But there is no mention of needing to be in her base form to activate another Wild Shape.
I did read the section on Wild Shape before posting. Your page 51 must be different than mine. Please indicate where to find any mention of changing directly from one form to another. All I find are:
"...a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day."
"The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back."
"Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action[.]"
"This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here." Is the changing to and back, an exception. Meh.
I'm not saying I believe that was the intention of the authors, but if we take a strict, literal reading of the rules, there is nothing in the wild shape ability text that says you can change from one animal form directly to another; which is all I said above. Either that part about "and back" is fluff text and we ignore it because we assume that it's just fluff text or it's part of the rules.
EDIT: I know this might come off a bit snarky, but being told to go read the rules, when I just posted "a strict reading..." is a bit irritating.
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What it does say within the wording of the power is that the druid activates it and shifts into a new form, there is no restriction that says the druid must stop shift back to his original form and then shift to a new desired form.
Within the printed limitations of wild form I see no reason why they cant , because the statement of "The druid may change" and any subsequent reference in the power does not somehow create the need for him to be in his original form.
- He is still a druid of the appropriate level.
- He still has uses of the power left.
Since he still fulfills these two basic requirements and the power says he can use it, there is no reason to believe he cannot do this.
And Further I sighted a page # in the hopes you might quote a rule or make a reference in regards to your argument, so to clarify, please do so.
What it does say within the wording of the power is that the druid activates it and shifts into a new form, there is no restriction that says the druid must stop shift back to his original form and then shift to a new desired form.
Within the printed limitations of wild form I see no reason why they cant , because the statement of "The druid may change" and any subsequent reference in the power does not somehow create the need for him to be in his original form.
- He is still a druid of the appropriate level.
- He still has uses of the power left.
Since he still fulfills these two basic requirements and the power says he can use it, there is no reason to believe he cannot do this.
And Further I sighted a page # in the hopes you might quote a rule or make a reference in regards to your argument, so to clarify, please do so.
Like I said above, apparently our page 51s are different, I cited three different passages you couldn't find and because I can't find your quotation, "The druid may change" anywhere in my Core Rulebook.
Please indicate where to find any mention of changing directly from one form to another.
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What it does say within the wording of the power is that the druid activates it and shifts into a new form, there is no restriction that says the druid must stop shift back to his original form and then shift to a new desired form.
Within the printed limitations of wild form I see no reason why they cant , because the statement of "The druid may change" and any subsequent reference in the power does not somehow create the need for him to be in his original form.
- He is still a druid of the appropriate level.
- He still has uses of the power left.
Since he still fulfills these two basic requirements and the power says he can use it, there is no reason to believe he cannot do this.
And Further I sighted a page # in the hopes you might quote a rule or make a reference in regards to your argument, so to clarify, please do so.
Like I said above, apparently our page 51s are different, I cited three different passages you couldn't find and because I can't find your quotation, "The druid may change" anywhere in my Core Rulebook.
Please indicate where to find any mention of changing directly from one form to another.
Okay Paizo Core Rulebook page 51 Wildshape section, paragraph 1 , which defines what he/she must do to use the power:
"Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to
turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back
again once per day. Her options for new forms include
all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions
like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect
lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back.
Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action
and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form
chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid
is familiar."
So here we see that he may activate the wildshape with these restrictions and per this paragraph he does meet the requirement of activating the wildshape from whatever form he is in at the time because the power does not set down any other requirement.
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Okay Paizo Core Rulebook page 51 Wildshape section, paragraph 1 , which defines what he/she must do to use the power:
"Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to
turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back
again once per day. Her options for new forms include
all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions
like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect
lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back.
Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action
and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form
chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid
is familiar."So here we see that he may activate the wildshape with these restrictions and per this paragraph he does meet the requirement of activating the wildshape from whatever...
I think hes reading the bolded section as you have to turn into the creature and back again before you can use a second wildshape. If I were a GM in a home game this is exactly how I would interpret it, in order to remove all the confusing judgment calls the other way is now bringing to the table. However by RAW, it still doesnt seem clear and could be interpreted as either meaning, at least the way I am reading it.
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I think hes reading the bolded section as you have to turn into the creature and back again before you can use a second wildshape. If I were a GM in a home game this is exactly how I would interpret it, in order to remove all the confusing judgment calls the other way is now bringing to the table. However by RAW, it still doesnt seem clear and could be interpreted as either meaning, at least the way I am reading it.Okay Paizo Core Rulebook page 51 Wildshape section, paragraph 1 , which defines what he/she must do to use the power:
"Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to
turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back
again once per day. Her options for new forms include
all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions
like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect
lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back.
Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action
and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form
chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid
is familiar."So here we see that he may activate the wildshape with these restrictions and per this paragraph he does meet the requirement of activating the wildshape from whatever...
If that is the case I would not support that argument the sentence in reference...
"At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to
turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back
again once per day"
...says you gain the ability to shift and shift back, it doesnt indicate you have to shift back to any particular form in order to shift again, rather it means you can shift back to human form without expending a use of the wild shape ability.
So here we see that he may activate the wildshape with these restrictions and per this paragraph he does meet the requirement of activating the wildshape from whatever form he is in
The ability to change back is not a requirement to change back. Your interpretation is in no way shape or form derived from the text.
It takes a standard action to change from one form to another, regardless of whether or not you decided they need to go back to "original" form.
Wildshape no.1 ends when you decided to use wildshape no. 2, that means you stop being a horse, meaning you lack the limbs to to hold/equip the gear in question. If you lack the limbs and are not wearing the gear, it cannot be merged into a new form now can it? The new form takes a standard action to aquire. Whether it is instant or takes a few seconds, the logic is the same. Use of the item is based on the first condition, you are unable to keep use of the item when the first condition ends. The second condition cannot exist with the first (no stacking polymorph effects). That split second keeps the gear from merging.
Wildshape1-------->......................Standard Action...........................<---Wildshape2
horseshoes on---->Invalid limbs/gear falls off and lands on ground<--No horseshoes in kitty form
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i cant believe this post is still going. But damn would i like to hear some designer oppinions on this.
Especially the rake as part of the charge thing, as in my reading you are only allowed to rake if your bite attack succeds and you succefully grapple during the pounce. This is ofcourse still very good, but albeit a bit weaker than the other interpretation.
It also makes way more sense if we look at a real life lion. Considering the rake attacks is the back claws, then it would only ever use them even when charging, if it actually had a bite/ grab on the victim. Atleast thats what animal planet tells me (probably not that reliable)
Still flagging this for FAQ though