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This weekend, we had a 6th-level lion shaman druid as part of our Pathfinder Society games. This guy was painfully potent, dishing out a crapton of damage (80+ points) with his pounce. It left me with a few questions that I would love to see addressed officially.
1.) Rhino hide armor gives +2d6 damage on a charge. Since a cat form pounces for five attacks (bite, claw x2, rake x2), that's a potential total of +10d6 from armor that costs only 5,165 gp (A bargain at twice the price!). I interpret the rules' intent to mean +2d6 on one attack per charge, which must be designated prior to the roll. Is this correct?
2.) The druid assumed an equine form and was shod with horseshoes of speed. He then assumed a lion form for battle, indicating that he gains +30 ft. movement in all animal forms because the shoes are a continuous item merged with his form when he is not a horse. Is the druid considered an animal for the purpose of the horseshoes? Do items assumed in one animal form merge into the body and continue to function in other animal forms?
3.) Rake attacks normally require a foe to be grappled for one round first, but are also allowed as part of the creature's full attack on a pounce. In the past, I had thought that rake attacks required the creature to successfully strike and grapple with whichever attack grants improved grab. On a Pounce charge, the creature can then rake in the same round. On a normal full attack, the creature would rake during the next round of grappling. (I may be grasping at straws with this one...)
this is why I steer clear of organized play. I think by raw the player was right in 1 and 2, but I wouldn't let it fly at my table. As for 3, this is correct, raking can be used when grappling but it is also usable on a pounce attack whether you grab or not.
I play a level 6 3.5 druid who has a leopard companion and wildshapes into a leopard. (Both are fluffed into mountain lions, but they use the leopard stats and abilities).
She also summons leopards (mountain lions).
Our GM ruled that rakes required a grapple, even on a pounce. That was in direct response to my druid, her animal companion and her summoned mountain lions ripping entire encounters to shreds in a single round.
Because of that I have been role playing the pounce ability to happen only in major fights because it is so devastating.
In 3.5 I would buff my leopard and my wild-shaped druid with "bite of the were-rat" to gain +6 to dex, and since the leopard has weapon finesse as a feat, that was a +3 to all attacks, as well as a +3 to AC. Buffed also with bull's strength... well, that grapple wasn't nearly as hard to pull off as the GM thought it would be.
When I wasn't doing that I was summoning rhinos and buffing their charge attack.
This appears to be completely legal and could be argued as totally broken.
1) In my own games I would house-rule that it only applies to the first attack made. I don't play society games, so I don't know what options you have.
2) The horse shoes won't work. While he is correct that items melded from another animal form still function if they are continouos effects, however this is not the case. The horse shoes just like most boots, are use-activated, the use of them being walking or running.
Here is a few questions..
did he take any of the following?
Improved Natural Attack
Eldritch Claws
Rending Claws?
If so, by raw, he isn't allowed to.
Here's a question. If your druid had a level of rogue, and pounce-attacked a flat-footed opponent, how many attacks would gain sneak attack bonus if they successfully hit the opponent?
Here's a question. If your druid had a level of rogue, and pounce-attacked a flat-footed opponent, how many attacks would gain sneak attack bonus if they successfully hit the opponent?
All of them. Sneak attack applies to any attack a rogue makes against a flat footed opponent, barring that target having a defense that would counter such, like Uncanny Dodge, etc.
After seeing this kitty in action, it is pretty terrifying.
I've reviewed the rules and I think that the kitty is only entitled to rake if it hits with the bite and successfully uses the grab ability to grapple. No bite, no grapple, no rake.
Unfortunately, this isn't completely clear. While Pounce says the creature can make rake attacks it does not state whether this overrides the normal grapple requirement for rake or just the part about the creature must start the turn grappling. It could be read either way.
For game balance's sake, I think I would rule the latter. It wouldn't prevent this combo entirely, but would reduce it likelihood to a reasonable point without completely nerfing the build.
While the +2d6 for five attacks may not be what the developers intended it appears to be legit within the rules of "deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer."
I think the weakest part of the build is the the requirement for horseshoes of speed. If we read the bit about "an animal" as "a creature of the animal type" then he wouldn't qualify. I'm thinking that is the way I would rule it.
The careful enforcement of the logistics of this (burns one wildshape use, requires the time, equipment, and expertise to shod the druid, falls off as soon as he returns to human form) should dissuade this even if legal.
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1) RAW it should work as the druid say. I see why you would houserule differently in your games but unless it get changed for organized play (and you should post in that section to get a meaningful reply) it is kosher.
2) The druid had any magic gauntlet/boot? After all his limbs become the beast limbs, they don't generate "new" item slots, so if he has magic gear on his hand and feet the horseshoes should not work.
3) RAW
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.
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Thinking a bit more about it:
about 1):
When you cast a polymorph spell .... all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
Rhino Hide
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Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
The charge power of the rhino hide is use activated as it work only if you charge, not continuously.
2) Affixing the horseshoes has some nasty consequence. When he resume his normal form he will have horseshoes affixed to his nails through his gauntlets (if worn) and his boots. That will cripple hands and feet
till the horseshoe are removed (probably inflicting 1d3 damage every time one of the nails is removed from his fingernails and toenails).
For sure his gear will have the broken condition as several nails will have pierced his gauntlets and his boots.
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First how did he get 2 rake attaks?
Second to gain a rake attack you must hit with your two claw attacks then you gain a rake attack.
I'm not sure on the Rhino Hide armor but I would only grant a 2d6 on one attack. It is something that needs some errata. Why would you spend 8k on a burst weapon when you could just by rhinohide armor and grapel for 2d6 pr irritave attack if you were a fighter.
Pay the slotless cost and get a Pretty Kitty collar of awsome speed with a nifty bell and a pice of string for him to chase instead of horseshoes of speed. much more intune with a cat themed character,
Plus you would not have the stigmata problem.
First how did he get 2 rake attaks?
Second to gain a rake attack you must hit with your two claw attacks then you gain a rake attack.I'm not sure on the Rhino Hide armor but I would only grant a 2d6 on one attack. It is something that needs some errata. Why would you spend 8k on a burst weapon when you could just by rhinohide armor and grapel for 2d6 pr irritave attack if you were a fighter.
Pay the slotless cost and get a Pretty Kitty collar of awsome speed with a nifty bell and a pice of string for him to chase instead of horseshoes of speed. much more intune with a cat themed character,
Plus you would not have the stigmata problem.
No, that is simply not correct. The Pounce ability as written automatically grants you 2 rake attacks on a charge attack. The rake ability itself only requires a successful grapple on a non-charge attack. There is no requirement whatsoever that both claws have to hit.
The "rend" special ability does require at least two successful claw attacks. But not "pounce."
Thinking a bit more about it:
Rhino Hide
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Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.The charge power of the rhino hide is use activated as it work only if you charge, not continuously.
I don't think so.
First off, the use-activated text does not say anything that supports your categorization of the Rhino Hide.
Secondly, "deals +X damage on a charge attack" is not a use-activation, it's a constant effect. Constantly, the player is under the effect of having +2D6 damage on all successful charge attacks he makes. He does not have to, each time he makes such an attack, use the armor to activate the ability. "+2D6 charge damage" is a buff he constantly has until he takes the armor off.
Thinking a bit more about it:
Rhino Hide
....
Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.The charge power of the rhino hide is use activated as it work only if you charge, not continuously.
I don't think so.
First off, the use-activated text does not say anything that supports your categorization of the Rhino Hide.
Secondly, "deals +X damage on a charge attack" is not a use-activation, it's a constant effect. Constantly, the player is under the effect of having +2D6 damage on all successful charge attacks he makes. He does not have to, each time he makes such an attack, use the armor to activate the ability. "+2D6 charge damage" is a buff he constantly has until he takes the armor off.
Diego is saying that the "use activated" portion comes from taking the action of charging. The Use Activated Trigger is charging at an enemy, in Diego's interpretation. This does make a certain amount of sense, but I'm not sure if it's RAW/I.
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Thinking a bit more about it:
Rhino Hide
....
Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.The charge power of the rhino hide is use activated as it work only if you charge, not continuously.
I don't think so.
First off, the use-activated text does not say anything that supports your categorization of the Rhino Hide.
Secondly, "deals +X damage on a charge attack" is not a use-activation, it's a constant effect. Constantly, the player is under the effect of having +2D6 damage on all successful charge attacks he makes. He does not have to, each time he makes such an attack, use the armor to activate the ability. "+2D6 charge damage" is a buff he constantly has until he takes the armor off.
Can you give an example of a sword power that is activated by swinging it and it is not constant if we follow your explanation?
"Use activated" can use a rewording of the explanation, but the armor effect work only if you charge, so it is not constant bonus (note that pholymorph speak of constant bonus, not effect).
If the spell allowed constant effects a ring of counterspelling would work, with a constant bonus it will not.
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this is why I steer clear of organized play. I think by raw the player was right in 1 and 2, but I wouldn't let it fly at my table.
Why not? To start with, that pounce kitty has to actually hit with all of those attacks to do the alleged 80pts of damage. That's a bite/claw/claw/rake/rake doing an average of 16pts each (and this druid either had a lot of time to prep-buff, or is swingin' for the moon with Power Attack in a class which is -2 BAB at 6th).
Realize that a damage-focused 6th-level archer can pull off the same stunt almost every turn if purpose-built to do so, and a BAB6 fighter with Cleave facing two adjacent opponents can easily do that much.
I'm leaning toward Diego Rossi's interpretation. Here's how that section continues:
"Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen." (emphasis mine)
Since the 2d6 damage is NOT constantly functioning but only functioning when the wearer is charging, it seems to fall under the part of use-activation where the charging person mentally wills the extra damage in a charge.
Rhino Hide
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Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.
I'd only allow the extra +2d6 on one attack, not all. I suspect the intention of the rule was for anyone doing a "normal" charge which only allows one attack. Whereas the pounce ability that the Lion Shaman (and possibly other classes?) takes a different tangent to the standard charge rules (probably all written subsequent to the Core Rulebook being published) . Arguing that it should apply to all 5 attacks during a pounce is very smelly cheese.
The wording of the Rhino Hide description could be tightened up. The words "on any successful charge attack" indicates one attack. If the intention was for it to apply to multiple attacks during a charge, then the wording should read "on any successful attacks made as part of a charge". <editor mode off>
Also, I suspect the Rhino Hide would need the wild enhancement for it to function while wildshaped? And even if the player still wore it but didn't get the AC bonus, I'd argue that no other special ability of the armour would work either.
As for the lion wearing magical horseshoes..... only if he wildshapes into a lion with hooves. Just another attempt to to use ambiguity in the wording of the rules to get around what should be a pretty clear intent of the rules. Though I do like the suggestion above about what happens to the nails attaching them to you when you end your wildshape. After all, the magic item description says "when affixed to an animal's hooves" so the DM can simply adjudicate that requires nails as per mundane horseshoes.
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I've found that a lot of people are overly generous with where they can charge which might resolve a bit of this. A large creature in a dungeon isn't going to find a ton of good charge lines.
Overall, I have to agree that people bending and tweaking the rules is a big deterrent to me doing a lot of open organized play. I enjoy it in our local group but if someone brings something like this I can talk to them.
Fortunately the number of players who pull this sort of thing is a fairly small percentage.
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1. "Rhino's Hide Armor" effect IMO is considered a situational constant effect, no command words or uses per day but definitely use activated since it requires a Charge Attack (use) to activate.
Therefor it requires the "Wild" Enhancement which as an extra cost should justify the bonus damage on all attacks during a pounce.
2. The Horseshoes trick IMO is not applicable firstly because:
-Wild Shape indicates that items worn by a druid in his natural form only are melded during Wild Shaping in an animal form, try wearing a Barding in a Horse form and then shaping back to Humanoid and you will have a Druid with extra oversized armor over his head.
-Same applies for the Horse shoes when you shift back to human you will have nailed two pairs of Horse Shoes on your hands and feet (ouch!!!)
3. According to the rules:
Rake can be used only if you have grappled an opponent and not in a charge since it is considered an extra attack.
Grappling during a charge is allowed but only one attempt can be made.
Grappling in a Full Attack may be repeated for every extra attack you have for high base attack.
Pounce allows you to make a full attack (including rakes and grapples) during a charge.
Therefor during a Charge/Pounce attack you may make rake attacks only if you fulfill the basic prerequisites, that is to grapple your opponent.
Cat Durid is 4 fite
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Can you give an example of a sword power that is activated by swinging it and it is not constant if we follow your explanation?Vorpal?
Activated on a natural 20 and then confirmed critical, I would say.
I must admit that the wording of the pholymorph effect can be problematic.
Taking: "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)." as a starting point I can see a reasonable argument to say that the attack and damage bonuses of the weapons someone has in his hands when shapechanging should be added to his combat bonuses for claw attacks.
On the other hand that is listed as a special power of the Red mantis PrC when pholymorphing in mantis form.
We need a clearer definition of what is a constant bonus.
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First how did he get 2 rake attaks?
Second to gain a rake attack you must hit with your two claw attacks then you gain a rake attack.
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
You get all the attacks, including rake.
I would see a problem with the horseshoe thing. Using that interpretation, all druids would be able to turn into a horse once, put those one, and then essentially have an innate speed increase since there is no more targetted magic to remove or disenchant. Its not a dispellable effect. I also don't think polymorph rules specifically state you can do that, since reverting to your normal form does not use the same "items melding" mechanic as original form to wildshape.
I would think the intent of the armor is a one time bonus of 2d6 after the charge action.
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My 2 cents...
Rhino Hide Armor would prevent the Pounce from happening, due to the extra weight and loss of movement.
Rhino Hide Armor enhances the mass & weight hence the charge damage increase. Pounce is all speed and Dex.
On a Pounce/Charge, the attacker is allowed a Rake attack if the creature has the ability.
On the Pounce attack, a grapple attempt should be made for the Rake, but it won't inflict damage until the next round. The charging, pouncing kitty ends up with its target grappled and gains the 2 extra claw attacks on the following round(s) that the grapple is maintained.
The incomplete consensus I've gathered so far comes to:
1.) Limiting Rhino Hide to one attack isn't RAW, but falls within RAI.
2.) Horseshoes for a Lion Shaman = Bad Idea.
3.) (Iffy) Cats rake on their pounce, even without successful bites.
Creatures can use their rake attacks on a pounce. There is absolutely no question about this.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
The incomplete consensus I've gathered so far comes to:
1.) Limiting Rhino Hide to one attack isn't RAW, but falls within RAI.
1a.) ...and it isn't clear if the Rhino Hide charge ability is a "constant bonus".
2.) Horseshoes for a Lion Shaman = Bad Idea.
3.) (Iffy) Cats rake on their pounce, even without successful bites.
#3 is not iffy to me at all; you're clearly allowed to rake on a pounce, IMO.
The incomplete consensus I've gathered so far comes to:
1.) Limiting Rhino Hide to one attack isn't RAW, but falls within RAI.
1a.) ...and it isn't clear if the Rhino Hide charge ability is a "constant bonus".
#3 is not iffy to me at all; you're clearly allowed to rake on a pounce, IMO.2.) Horseshoes for a Lion Shaman = Bad Idea.
3.) (Iffy) Cats rake on their pounce, even without successful bites.
Yep, raking on a pounce is totally RAW.
My GM disallows it anyway, and I'm OK with that. It is crazy powerful, especially if you summon a bunch of lions, have a lion AC and wildshape into a lion... That first round can be killer for an encounter.
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Thinking a bit more about it:
about 1):
When you cast a polymorph spell .... all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.Rhino Hide
....
Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.The charge power of the rhino hide is use activated as it work only if you charge, not continuously.
I agree with Diego Rossi on this point.
My general interpretation has always been that armor, shields and manufactured weapons all merge in wildshape and seize to function.This certainly applies to Rhino Hide as well.
Even for Organized Play GMs are well in their right to disallow this kind of cheese until Jason or Hyrum state otherwise.
2) Affixing the horseshoes has some nasty consequence. When he resume his normal form he will have horseshoes affixed to his nails through his gauntlets (if worn) and his boots. That will cripple hands and feet
till the horseshoe are removed (probably inflicting 1d3 damage every time one of the nails is removed from his fingernails and toenails).For sure his gear will have the broken condition as several nails will have pierced his gauntlets and his boots.
In this case I would simply rule the horse shoes fall off when the druid reverts to natural form. No harm - no consequence (aside from the PC wasting gold on a sub-optimal purchase).
I've found that a lot of people are overly generous with where they can charge which might resolve a bit of this. A large creature in a dungeon isn't going to find a ton of good charge lines.
Overall, I have to agree that people bending and tweaking the rules is a big deterrent to me doing a lot of open organized play. I enjoy it in our local group but if someone brings something like this I can talk to them.
Fortunately the number of players who pull this sort of thing is a fairly small percentage.
While you have a point, I have a counter. If you Jump, you ignore difficult terrain.
Jumping can be done as part of a charge.
If you are a Pouncer and live by your Charges, you will/should also have maxed your Acrobatics skill to a degree where you can make standing horizontal jumps of 10-15 feet for just the purpose of avoiding being hindered by difficult ground.
So, while you certainly have a point, it becomes moot by a certain level once acrobatics is high enough.
As for the OP and his problem, the Pouncer will remain powerful but will lose impetus as the rest of the party gets high magical bonuses on their weapons and more iterative attacks.
Compared to a Cavalier with a horse and a lance, the damage done by pouncing is certainly matched and probably surpassed once his lance has a higher magical plus than each claw of the pouncer.
The cat will never get iterative attacks, since he uses all natural attacks. His only way to gain more attacks is by growing more limbs.
He also has issues with reach. He will get hit by AOO's when charging stuff with reach, and these critters should consider tripping him if they have the ability.
In this weekend's game, I discussed these issues further with the druid's player. He stated that using "absorbed" horseshoes of speed has been discussed before on the Paizo boards and the developers supported it as legit.
I couldn't find any such discussion: Have you guys seen one?
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My forum-fu fail at finding anything. I would say that the finding the post that support his position is his duty.
There is a good chance that he is misremembering something or that the question asked to the developer will make the reply very different from the interpretation he is using.
As far as I know when he revert to normal form the horseshoes will not be part of his body.
Similarly, if he has any item in the same locations (hands and feet) the horseshoes and the items in that location will not work, independently from his current form.
1.) Rhino hide armor gives +2d6 damage on a charge. Since a cat form pounces for five attacks (bite, claw x2, rake x2), that's a potential total of +10d6 from armor that costs only 5,165 gp (A bargain at twice the price!). I interpret the rules' intent to mean +2d6 on one attack per charge, which must be designated prior to the roll. Is this correct?
-All of the attacks are made on a charge, so they all get the +2d6.
2.) The druid assumed an equine form and was shod with horseshoes of speed. He then assumed a lion form for battle, indicating that he gains +30 ft. movement in all animal forms because the shoes are a continuous item merged with his form when he is not a horse. Is the druid considered an animal for the purpose of the horseshoes? Do items assumed in one animal form merge into the body and continue to function in other animal forms?
-Hmmm.. this one i might be able to help you with.
These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal's hooves , they increase the animal's base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally (see Using Skills). All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective.
When in lion form the shoes are functioning normally but since the shoes specifically require that they be affixed to hooves (which the lion doesn't have) to work , nothing happens.
3.) Rake attacks normally require a foe to be grappled for one round first, but are also allowed as part of the creature's full attack on a pounce. In the past, I had thought that rake attacks required the creature to successfully strike and grapple with whichever attack grants improved grab. On a Pounce charge, the creature can then rake in the same round. On a normal full attack, the creature would rake during the next round of grappling. (I may be grasping at straws with this one...)
Yup, sorry. The charging kitty does bite claw claw rake rake.
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In this weekend's game, I discussed these issues further with the druid's player. He stated that using "absorbed" horseshoes of speed has been discussed before on the Paizo boards and the developers supported it as legit.
I couldn't find any such discussion: Have you guys seen one?
It seems to me these three issues are very clear and almost everyone has strayed from the original question including to a very large extent sir wulf that posed the original question.
Let me first say that I am not going to entertain any of the comments on game balance because quite frankly none of its balanced or in the spirit of fun or even particularly fluffy, if that’s your question then more power to you, and as a GM of extensive experience I would simply tell this player to play something else in whatever home campaign he is playing.
In organized play however we as GM's do not have that luxury so lets focus up this thread....DOES IT WORK? YES OR NO? These are the pertinent questions that sir wulf has posed. And so we attempt to disprove the players opinion of how it functions, to educate the player that it does not work that way, we point out page #'s and advise on how to do things in the correct manner...and If we cannot...then im afraid we must admit the player is correct.
#1 the rhino hide trick, Okay the only reason this possibly may not work is if you believe that the rhino hide is use activated, this is what I like to call a grey area and I believe we should get a ruling on it because it is the only part about it that’s in any way unclear. Otherwise unfortunately due to the wording of rhino hide im afraid +10d6 on the pounce while again unbalanced and truly unfortunate is a reality.
#2 The horse shoe issue, I can see why people don’t want this to work and again yes its lame and not in the spirit...however I have poured over the rules and assuming that the society is using the polymorph rulings here on these very discussion threads, and they are, and assuming horseshoes are a constant effect item, and they are, and finally assuming the player is a horse wearing said horseshoes and then uses an ability that polymorphs him into said creature(lion) then im afraid this to works as such to grant the lion form the bonus movement.
#3 finally the issue of pounce is mute and completely clear...assuming you actually read pounce that is.
Do we as Gms have the right in organized play to arbitrarily say a magic item doesn’t work in said fashion? Even if overpowered? Sir Wulf raises an interesting point where he says he will honor only the +2d6 for one attack, and in a home campaign I quite frankly would do the same...but the point many of you are missing is...this is not a home campaign. This is very interesting indeed because from an organized play perspective you need to take into consideration wealth expenditure vs. intended effect, for example, would the player have spent that money on something different if he had known about your house rule ahead of time? Very Likely, and knowing of your house rule after he showed up to your game day doesn’t change the fact that the rhino hide if on some old log sheet and cant be changed, just offering some devils advocate perspective gentleman.
1: The charge just counts on the first attack.
2: No, just no you changed form the horseshoes are useless..have fun when you change back to human.
3: Yep rake works on a pounce.
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1) The rhino hide charge effect is a constant situational effect. You put on the armor, you do not have to speak a word or spend an action to turn on the ability. This is similar to other armor abilities, such as Fortification. Fortification only kicks in if someone else crits you, just as this ability only kicks in if you charge someone else. Nobody would argue that Fortification is use activated. Now, as to whether it affects all or one attack per round, is a very interesting question. I believe that, RAW, it affects all attacks. However, in the interest of Balance, I'd restrict it in my games to the first attack that hits the target (striking a balance between what you get RAW and my houserule nerfing it). Without wild armor ability, the kitty doesn't gain the rest of the armor's AC bonuses (or limitations), per RAW.
2) Bogus. You don't get extra slots, and a human doesn't have four 'foot' slots, even when polymorphed. He'd needs Boots of Speed or something instead. Those would give him boosts to speed in cat form, as they would be a continuous effect.
3) Yep, with a pounce, he get's bite claw claw rake rake. Felines are scary in combat (both in RL and game).
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From the magic section:
"When you cast a polymorph spell ... all of your gear melds into your body. "
Note that melding occurs when you cast the spell, not when the spell ends. Polymorph spells have no effect when their duration ENDS. So he polymorphs into the horse, puts the shoes on. Then when the spell ENDS (when he takes human form) the horseshoes are on the ground at his feet.
If things melded into you when ended the effect you could polymorph into another form then meld all your items into your body and run around naked getting all the benefits of the items even though you have no active spell.
Do we as Gms have the right in organized play to arbitrarily say a magic item doesn’t work in said fashion?
GMs have an OBLIGATION to run the rules in the way that makes sense to the game and their local group. The rules are intended to be read and interpreted by people with brains and judgment, not applied blindly. Hyrum and Mark KNOW this and have said specifically that GMs are the ultimate arbitrators about these rules questions in local games.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
While I agree with those who said that the +2d6 damage on a charge applies to all the attacks made in that round and the rake issue is clearly stated in the section Universial Monster Rules I am in doubt about the horseshoes.
First issue is the item slots as mentioned above and the second would be
the bolded version in BigNorseWolf's post:
When affixed to an animal's hooves
- which I see as a binding prerequisite for this magic item.
Do you change type (from human to animal) when shapechanging?
Unfortunately, I cannot find any direct quote for that, the texts only speak about changing form (a pure "cosmetical" effect) and changing into an animal as such.
In the polymorph section it is only said that
...these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks...
, so again nothing about changing type from human to animal.
Ruyan.
Only issue I have with saying the horseshoes only work on animals is that they would then not work on things such as Pegasi and Nightmares. I think it is best treated as fluff. I think the best restriction is to just say that it requires four foot slots (which a polymorphed biped doesn't have). Either that, or their foot/ring/glove slots stop working (which get's rid of a lot of bonuses they want to keep, like deflection bonuses and regen rings).
From the magic section:
"When you cast a polymorph spell ... all of your gear melds into your body. "Note that melding occurs when you cast the spell, not when the spell ends. Polymorph spells have no effect when their duration ENDS. So he polymorphs into the horse, puts the shoes on. Then when the spell ENDS (when he takes human form) the horseshoes are on the ground at his feet.
I don't believe this line of argument works because the druid appears to be casting one polymorph effect to get into horse shape and have the shoes put on (which party member has Craft: blacksmithing to do that by the way?) , then using another (with a completely different starting point) to meld the shoes. So if the shoes are on then they certainly do meld when he shifts to kitty because its the start of a new, overriding polymorph effect.
3.) (Iffy) Cats rake on their pounce, even without successful bites.
Incorrect. The rules have been quoted. This IS RAW and RAI.
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From the magic section:
"When you cast a polymorph spell ... all of your gear melds into your body. "Note that melding occurs when you cast the spell, not when the spell ends. Polymorph spells have no effect when their duration ENDS. So he polymorphs into the horse, puts the shoes on. Then when the spell ENDS (when he takes human form) the horseshoes are on the ground at his feet.
If things melded into you when ended the effect you could polymorph into another form then meld all your items into your body and run around naked getting all the benefits of the items even though you have no active spell.
Do we as Gms have the right in organized play to arbitrarily say a magic item doesn’t work in said fashion?
GMs have an OBLIGATION to run the rules in the way that makes sense to the game and their local group. The rules are intended to be read and interpreted by people with brains and judgment, not applied blindly. Hyrum and Mark KNOW this and have said specifically that GMs are the ultimate arbitrators about these rules questions in local games.
#1 The question is not if he keeps the horse shoes in human form thats irrelivant to the current discussion we wish to know if he keeps them while forming from horse while wearing the shoes directly to lion , he never becomes human to clarify.
#2 Thank you for the clarification but we are aware of that, The fact that we step into role as the game master implies it, my comment was meant to provoke reaction and if we are meant to take that much authority over the game during society play then so be it, then we need to hash it oout here so we come to common understanding.
1.) Rhino hide armor gives +2d6 damage on a charge. Since a cat form pounces for five attacks (bite, claw x2, rake x2), that's a potential total of +10d6 from armor that costs only 5,165 gp (A bargain at twice the price!). I interpret the rules' intent to mean +2d6 on one attack per charge, which must be designated prior to the roll. Is this correct?
-All of the attacks are made on a charge, so they all get the +2d6.
Except all armor is deactivated in their wild shape and pollymorph forms.
Except all armor is deactivated in their wild shape and pollymorph forms.1.) Rhino hide armor gives +2d6 damage on a charge. Since a cat form pounces for five attacks (bite, claw x2, rake x2), that's a potential total of +10d6 from armor that costs only 5,165 gp (A bargain at twice the price!). I interpret the rules' intent to mean +2d6 on one attack per charge, which must be designated prior to the roll. Is this correct?
-All of the attacks are made on a charge, so they all get the +2d6.
No it isn't.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
Only the armor and shield bonuses cease to function. Constant powers that do not require activation continue to work.
Except all armor is deactivated in their wild shape and pollymorph forms.
Nope. You only loose the armor bonus and thus the enhancement bonus to armor when you shapeshift.
From polymorph
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)
The armor bonus (and thus the enhancement to it) doesn't work
The shield bonus (and thus the enhancement bonus to it) doesn't work.
It doesn't say that the abilities from armor shut off.
I would refer to the section of polymorph that states "only one polymorph effect can be active at any one time."
If you polymorph/wildshape into a horse, than into ~anything~ else, the polymorph horse form ends just before the next begins... in that split second all items you were wearing as a horse fall off you body if they don't fit on your next form.
Except there is no split second in between them. If there is a new polymorph effect in effect then melding happens. If there is no polymorph effect in effect then nothing makes the shoes fall off. Its either one or the other.
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Guys Lion lack hooves. They do not have the "slot" for the item to work. The horse shoes need to touch the ground or air as the case my be. Being somewhere "inside" the lion does not really count, unless they work on your belt or in your pocket as well.