The purpose of this exercise is to see if the other martial classes can really out-monk the monk. Assuming that a player wants to make an unarmed martial character what is really their best option? For this test, lets assume the primary goals of a successful “Monk” are going to be unarmed fighting and Combat Maneuvers. Lets say the secondary goals to be mobility and skills.
So the setup is this: A Monk, a Brutal Pugilist Barbarian and a Fighter, all human at level 5 with the same statistics. No magical gear. The stats were lifted from Ostag the Unslain from the NPC guide. They calculate to a 32 point buy, not accounting for 4th level increase, but are not ridiculous from 4d6 rolled stats.
Stats are Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14 Hit points calculated by max at first level and average roll for the rest. All favored class bonus into HP
Statblocks:
Male human Monk 5
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
Defense
AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 11 (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 Monk, +1 Dodge)
hp 39 (5d8+15)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Defensive Abilities
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +7 (1d8+4)
Special Attacks
Flurry of Blows +7/+7 (1d8+4)
Ki Pool (4)
Statistics
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +9 CMD 22
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Skills Acrobatics +10 (+15 Jump), Climb +10, Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +10, Perception +10, Swim +9
Languages Common
SQ KI Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20 ft., High Jump, Purity of Body, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Evasion
Male human Brutal Pugilist 4
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +11
Defense
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 8 (+2 Dex, -2 rage)
hp 61 (5d12+25)
Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +5
Defensive Abilities
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +11 (1d6+6)
Special Attacks rage (12 rounds per day), rage powers
Strength Surge, Brawler
Base Statistics When Ulric is not raging his stats are AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 11; hp 51; Fort +6, Will +3; Melee Unarmed Strike +9 (1d4+4);Str 18, Con 15; CMB +9; CMD 22; Climb +10, Swim +10
Statistics
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +11 (+12 Grapple); CMD 24
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +12, Diplomacy +4, Intimidate +9, Perception +11, Survival +6, Swim +12
Languages Common
SQ fst movement, Savage Grapple, Pit Fighter (Grapple), Improved Savage Grapple
Male human Fighter 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
Defense
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 45 (5d10+15)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +3
Defensive Abilities
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +10 (1d3+9)
TWF +8/+8 (1d3 +9)
Special Attacks
Statistics
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +9 CMD 21
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Wepon focus Fist, Weapon Spec Fist, TWF
Skills Acrobatics +7 Climb +10, Perception +7, Swim +9
Languages Common
SQ Bravery +1, Armor Training 1, Weapon training 1: Close
Given these stat-blocks and the original intent, what class would you recommend for an unarmed martial character?
Note that the fighters armor training allows armor while the pugilist cannot wear it. There are other options, such as the mobile fighter archetype but for simplicity I chose to keep vanilla fighter for the weapon training. Also, I may have made some errors calculating the statblocks.
Well as you have no gear on the fighter magical or otherwise its kinda incomplete. I am gonna have a guess that with armor training 1 he could go fullplate and still get max dex for reduced movement speed so that pulls ac up to 21. Also he has 3 other feats to be assigned so if he adds dodge and fleet x2 he has a base movement of 40 which drops to 30 in heavy armor and AC22. Or adds TWF to Flurry like the monk for two attacks. In short, until you fully stat them out and equip them it isn't a fair test now is it?
But yea the fighter is gonna win, it makes me sad as i like the idea of monks but not the implimentation. The fix to MAD that got given to the paladin wasnt given to the monk.
The purpose of this exercise is to see if the other martial classes can really out-monk the monk. Assuming that a player wants to make an unarmed martial character what is really their best option? For this test, lets assume the primary goals of a successful “Monk” are going to be unarmed fighting and Combat Maneuvers.
In that case, I'd go for the fighter. But note that every discussion along these ends up with comments like "A monk's role isn't to be really good at unarmed fighting, or using combat maneuvers, or doing XYZ...it's something else that can't be defined in human language (apparently)".
By the way, it looks like a bunch of your fighter's feats got cut off somehow.
I noticed that the Barbarian and Fighter Unarmed Strikes are 1d6, but they should be 1d3 unless I'm missing something.
there is a barbarian rage power that gives 1d6 unarmed damage if you have IUS. the higher version adds twf
thing is a barbarian brawled doesn't just punch things. ge grabs them breaks their back all the while chewing their arm off.
I don't think anyone can out damage a monk in unarmed strikes. Ultimately, they have higher damage dice, and there's no way to scale a fighter or barbarian to those heights. IIRC, the monk's unarmed damage got as high as 2d20, before adding in the stupid amounts of magic available by those levels. A fighter would have to take feats to get that, assuming there were feats house ruled into the game for that purpose.
It can be done with custom magic items, house ruled feats, and other non-RAW means. RAW, no - no one will out damage the monk in unarmed strikes in the long run.
I don't think anyone can out damage a monk in unarmed strikes. Ultimately, they have higher damage dice, and there's no way to scale a fighter or barbarian to those heights. IIRC, the monk's unarmed damage got as high as 2d20, before adding in the stupid amounts of magic available by those levels. A fighter would have to take feats to get that, assuming there were feats house ruled into the game for that purpose.
It can be done with custom magic items, house ruled feats, and other non-RAW means. RAW, no - no one will out damage the monk in unarmed strikes in the long run.
Sadly you are falling into the myth of higher dice rather than higher flat top bonuses are king. In my list of feats not given to the fighter yet lts go with weapon focus/ weapon spec don't get the fleet
So with TWF and those he's hitting for +7/+7 and 1d3+11/1d3+7 per hit. And has an AC of 21.
As power attack at 5th level is -2/+4
I noticed that the Barbarian and Fighter Unarmed Strikes are 1d6, but they should be 1d3 unless I'm missing something.
Fighter is a copy paste error, but the Barbarian has brawler power. The statblock assume rageing so the power brings up the damage dice
I just realized that I did not calculate for power attack. However all three of them have the feat.
The purpose of this exercise is to see if the other martial classes can really out-monk the monk. Assuming that a player wants to make an unarmed martial character what is really their best option? For this test, lets assume the primary goals of a successful “Monk” are going to be unarmed fighting and Combat Maneuvers.In that case, I'd go for the fighter. But note that every discussion along these ends up with comments like "A monk's role isn't to be really good at unarmed fighting, or using combat maneuvers, or doing XYZ...it's something else that can't be defined in human language (apparently)".
By the way, it looks like a bunch of your fighter's feats got cut off somehow.
Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?
Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?
weapon focus: fist, weapon spec: fist, and TWF.
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The Barbarian is 4th while the other two are 5th, and there's no reason he can't have armor. Or the Greater Brawler rage power. In short, you've made a really poor unarmed barbarian.
The Fighter meanwhile, lacks his fighter bonus Feats (which should include Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization), has no way to do more than 1d3 damage unarmed, and also has no reason not to wear armor.
So your basis for comparison is really shoddily done.
Now, as for the actual question: It depends what you want to do. If you want ridiculous mobility and an Eastern feel, plus good defensive abilities (except AC) at the expense of damage go Monk. If you want brokenly nasty grappling viciousness and a crazed attitude, go Barbarian. If you want, long-term, the highest raw damage potential and are willing to wear full plate eventually, go Fighter.
And then of course, there's the melee Alchemist option, which can also result in some nasty 'unarmed' combat options.
Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?weapon focus: fist, weapon spec: fist, and TWF.
For now I gave him the same as the Monk, + Step Up. But Weapon Spec + TWF means that the fighter "flurrys" better than the monk now.
So you are sandbagging him to take not even close to standard fighter choices to make him weaker?
That is, of course, the point we are trying to make to you. The fighter is mechanically (not necessiarily flavor wise) the superior unarmed fighter choice.
The Barbarian is 4th while the other two are 5th, and there's no reason he can't have armor. Or the Greater Brawler rage power. In short, you've made a really poor unarmed barbarian.
The Fighter meanwhile, lacks his fighter bonus Feats (which should include Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization), has no way to do more than 1d3 damage unarmed, and also has no reason not to wear armor.
So your basis for comparison is really shoddily done.
Now, as for the actual question: It depends what you want to do. If you want ridiculous mobility and an Eastern feel, plus good defensive abilities (except AC) at the expense of damage go Monk. If you want brokenly nasty grappling viciousness and a crazed attitude, go Barbarian. If you want, long-term, the highest raw damage potential and are willing to wear full plate eventually, go Fighter.
And then of course, there's the melee Alchemist option, which can also result in some nasty 'unarmed' combat options.
I messed up in the statblocks but though Ulric is listed as lv 4, He is actually a lv 5. As stated the goal is unarmed fighting and combat maneuvers.
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Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?
7 feats actually.
1 from being Human.
3 from levels 1, 3, and 5.
3 from fighter levels 1, 2, and 4.
For now I gave him the same as the Monk, + Step Up. But Weapon Spec + TWF means that the fighter "flurrys" better than the monk now.
What is the point of this thread then? If you want to know who is the best at Unarmed Fighting, you should pick the best choices for each class.
So you are sandbagging him to take not even close to standard fighter choices to make him weaker?
That is, of course, the point we are trying to make to you. The fighter is mechanically (not necessiarily flavor wise) the superior unarmed fighter choice.
Not intentionally, just placeholding till i could recalculate the attacks.
Im not trying to keep the fighter down. Just acknowledging the implications of the feats i had overlooked.
Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?7 feats actually.
1 from being Human.
3 from levels 1, 3, and 5.
3 from fighter levels 1, 2, and 4.Have you thought about Weapon Focus and Specialization?
They were mentioned before, and i know, i know, my examples are unoptimized and full of errors. thats why i came to the forum in the first place.
Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?weapon focus: fist, weapon spec: fist, and TWF.
And Double Slice too.
And Double Slice too.Ooops. He Should have 3 more feats on there. Though to be honest, Which feats could help Reginald Boxer the most?weapon focus: fist, weapon spec: fist, and TWF.
The image of Double Slicing fists is pretty awesome.
With an amazing stat block like that Monk would really shine.
In terms of pound for pound damage output though unarmed fights beats them all.
Unarmed barbarian is meh at best.
Considering the advice of all the previous posters, im inclined to agree with you. Looks like the barbarian only has flavor to recomend it over the other unarmed options.
Also seems like the best unarmed class is a fighter decked out in full plate. I guess he deserves it.
Unarmed barbarian is meh at best.
With one exception (IMO) -- the rage ability Strength Surge is very impressive when it comes to performing a combat maneuver. For these 5th level examples, a +5 once per rage (on top of the Str boost for raging) is nothing to sneeze at!
Also seems like the best unarmed class is a fighter decked out in full plate. I guess he deserves it.
I think its sad that this is the case to be sure but yep.