I am unabashedly in love with the Witch class, to the point that I am willing to tolerate prepared casting and the nebulous requirement of an arcane "patron". But there are certain things the Witch cannot do by RAW which I feel are either integral to the Witch class, or which should be within the capacity of every full caster.
Now, of course this list is going to be entirely subjective, and at least half of it is motivated by things I want to do, so feel free to take it with as many grains of salt as you see fit.
By RAW, it takes them an hour to prepare even a single spell. If you leave slots open, it takes you another full hour of communion to prepare them later.
Contingency and Permanency. These are the bread and butter of prepared magic, key abilities that give the Wizard an edge over his spontaneous counterparts. Their exclusion is baffling and painful. Even Clerics should be able to do this.
Polymorph. Okay, they've got baleful polymorph so at least they can turn people into frogs, but witches in folklore are renowned for their shapeshifting abilities.
Okay, so this list is shorter than I thought it was going to be. It's a really great class, and if you can assume that the "patron" teaches spells rather than granting them, it's probably my favorite class after Dragonfire Adept. (Even better than Bard!)
But I'm working through the PFSRD pages for Ultimate Magic while I eagerly await the day I can purchase it and loving all of the new spells they get.
Which is why it makes me sad they don't get interplanetary teleport. They get all of the others, and even plane shift, and they don't get the one that makes me absolutely giddy. Even Clerics get interplanetary teleport, and they don't get the spells it's based on.
Okay, I'm done. Now I can just go back to begging for House Rules to fix these. Unless the devs want to throw me a bone here... ;)
The Healing patron and Hedge Witch archetype... you are forgiven and a half. Not that it matters, I am certain, but still... thank you.
Witches are still INT based arcane casters. They may have patrons, which makes them feel kind of like an Oracle or Cleric, but they are not getting their powers from an otherworldly power. They are just getting their spell formulae from them.
I see no reason why a witch could not research a new spell and teach it to her familiar just like a Wizard researches and writes a new spell in his book. So, a little judicious research should fill in the gaps you are missing (probably at +1 spell level from where wizards get the same spells).
Witches are still INT based arcane casters. They may have patrons, which makes them feel kind of like an Oracle or Cleric, but they are not getting their powers from an otherworldly power. They are just getting their spell formulae from them.
Yeah. That's the way I'm choosing to think about it. I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them. It's a thing.
And I realize there probably ain't a single other person agrees with me on that.
I see no reason why a witch could not research a new spell and teach it to her familiar just like a Wizard researches and writes a new spell in his book. So, a little judicious research should fill in the gaps you are missing (probably at +1 spell level from where wizards get the same spells).
Yeah, that wouldn't bother me. Better than jumping through hoops with Wyrm Wizard, even though it's thematically appropriate. Doesn't really help me with interplanetary teleport or wish-- to recover from a bad reincarnate-- but you can't win them all. Polymorph Any Object at 9th is good enough and I can fake wish to craft tomes.
Yeah. That's the way I'm choosing to think about it. I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them. It's a thing.And I realize there probably ain't a single other person agrees with me on that.
You are not alone.
I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them.
Playstyle can do much in the way of perception here. I've always deemed spells to be granted to clerics as boons for following the tenets and spreading the word of their respective religion. If a cleric displeases his deity, he should be subject to penalties roughly similiar to what a paladin incurs for violating his code. Clerics have an implicit code through which the deity grants them favor. Such a code differs of course depending on the nature and ethos of the deity. Approaching it from such a perspective, makes it a bit less like begging for spells, and a bit more of a contract.
We did a game once where the cleric gave the GM a list of spells he would like to have, and then the GM altered as he saw prudent.
One of those, "You asked God for this, but God says you need that" sort of deals.
Which is why it makes me sad they don't get interplanetary teleport. They get all of the others, and even plane shift, and they don't get the one that makes me absolutely giddy. Even Clerics get interplanetary teleport, and they don't get the spells it's based on.
I agree I love the witch class alot too...but
according to my The Inner Sea World Guide they do get Interplanetary Teleport...did the errata it so they don't now?
I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them.Playstyle can do much in the way of perception here. I've always deemed spells to be granted to clerics as boons for following the tenets and spreading the word of their respective religion. If a cleric displeases his deity, he should be subject to penalties roughly similiar to what a paladin incurs for violating his code. Clerics have an implicit code through which the deity grants them favor. Such a code differs of course depending on the nature and ethos of the deity. Approaching it from such a perspective, makes it a bit less like begging for spells, and a bit more of a contract.
Agree here.. no need of being harsh - perhaps next time at the "spell preparation hour" few spell will not be granted. just an hint- unless the cleric starts to really go off rails.
Agree here.. no need of being harsh - perhaps next time at the "spell preparation hour" few spell will not be granted. just an hint- unless the cleric starts to really go off rails.I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them.Playstyle can do much in the way of perception here. I've always deemed spells to be granted to clerics as boons for following the tenets and spreading the word of their respective religion. If a cleric displeases his deity, he should be subject to penalties roughly similiar to what a paladin incurs for violating his code. Clerics have an implicit code through which the deity grants them favor. Such a code differs of course depending on the nature and ethos of the deity. Approaching it from such a perspective, makes it a bit less like begging for spells, and a bit more of a contract.
Exactly, I probably should have clarified, but the response should always be relative to the degree of violation.
Exactly, I probably should have clarified, but the response should always be relative to the degree of violation.Agree here.. no need of being harsh - perhaps next time at the "spell preparation hour" few spell will not be granted. just an hint- unless the cleric starts to really go off rails.I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them.Playstyle can do much in the way of perception here. I've always deemed spells to be granted to clerics as boons for following the tenets and spreading the word of their respective religion. If a cleric displeases his deity, he should be subject to penalties roughly similiar to what a paladin incurs for violating his code. Clerics have an implicit code through which the deity grants them favor. Such a code differs of course depending on the nature and ethos of the deity. Approaching it from such a perspective, makes it a bit less like begging for spells, and a bit more of a contract.
Yeah something like this. My players always been "good" clerics (regardless the alignment) but I always considered this an option for my home games.
Yeah something like this. My players always been "good" clerics (regardless the alignment) but I always considered this an option for my home games.Exactly, I probably should have clarified, but the response should always be relative to the degree of violation.Agree here.. no need of being harsh - perhaps next time at the "spell preparation hour" few spell will not be granted. just an hint- unless the cleric starts to really go off rails.I don't have a problem with divine magic in general, but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them.Playstyle can do much in the way of perception here. I've always deemed spells to be granted to clerics as boons for following the tenets and spreading the word of their respective religion. If a cleric displeases his deity, he should be subject to penalties roughly similiar to what a paladin incurs for violating his code. Clerics have an implicit code through which the deity grants them favor. Such a code differs of course depending on the nature and ethos of the deity. Approaching it from such a perspective, makes it a bit less like begging for spells, and a bit more of a contract.
Alignment really varies for us, we've done everything from LG to CE pretty much. When they do play evil its a mature kind of evil, not the mindless madmen like the DM horror stories. lol
Playstyle can do much in the way of perception here. I've always deemed spells to be granted to clerics as boons for following the tenets and spreading the word of their respective religion. If a cleric displeases his deity, he should be subject to penalties roughly similiar to what a paladin incurs for violating his code.
Oh, yeah. I'm not disputing that in the least. What I'm saying is that if you truly worship a deity and wish to further its cause on the Material Plane, it would be better to show your devotion by using your own power to support its goals.
It's fine to pray for help when you need it, but praying for 3 9th level spells every day just seems like it's pushing it.
Clerics have an implicit code through which the deity grants them favor. Such a code differs of course depending on the nature and ethos of the deity. Approaching it from such a perspective, makes it a bit less like begging for spells, and a bit more of a contract.
That's a fair way of looking at it. That makes it less proper worship in my eyes, but there's nothing wrong with being a faithful retainer to a deity.
according to my The Inner Sea World Guide they do get Interplanetary Teleport...did the errata it so they don't now?
I don't have Inner Sea World Guide yet. It's listed as Cleric 9 and Sorcerer/Wizard 9 on PFSRD. I would be happy to discover that it's a mere oversight.
I haven't had the opportunity to play a witch yet, but one thing that bugs me about their spell list is that they get none of the planar binding/ally spells; witches conjuring otherworldly spirits to do their bidding is pretty iconic to me, and so I was shocked when I saw that they lacked the ability to bring any of the big boys in (I know they get summon monsters, but those spells are short term combat spells).
I was further disappointed when I saw the new patrons listed in Ultimate Magic and they *still* get no love with the binding spells. It seems that whenever I finally get to play a witch, I'll have to research some witchy version of those spells. :/
My witch just leveled up from first to second level at the end of our first session yesterday, so my spell casting experience is pretty limited, and I haven't researched the spell list beyond about level 3.
I too love the witch, which is surprising since I initially was put off by the class. After playing one I find it to be one of the most interesting and challenging classes to play. I do have concerns that the limited spell list is going to be more of a problem at higher levels, but since it will be months or years before my witch gets there, right now I'm not that worried about it. I expect there will be lots of "fixes" to the class by the time I reach those levels.
I am playing a "voodoo witch" which is a custom flavor of the witch based on voodoo mythology. His familiar is seen as a physical manifestation of his patron, and he believes he is communing directly with his patron when he is preparing spells. But beyond the communication link he treats the familiar's spell list as a wizard treats a spell book, he doesn't ask permission and his patron doesn't grant them, he picks the one he wants and the familiar delivers them to him for casting.
I was under the impression that witches could only prepare spells once per day and could not leave slots open to prepare additional spells later in the day. I think there was another thread here on that subject.
The only part that gets a little fuzzy is the spells that are picked as he levels up. It's not clear how the witch knows which spells to choose from since witches don't attend arcane spell research classes like wizards are assumed to have done. How does the witch know what spells are available to choose from? We play it as the patron provides the options to choose from and the witch chooses which spells to add to the familiar's repertoire from that list.
The only part that gets a little fuzzy is the spells that are picked as he levels up. It's not clear how the witch knows which spells to choose from since witches don't attend arcane spell research classes like wizards are assumed to have done. How does the witch know what spells are available to choose from? We play it as the patron provides the options to choose from and the witch chooses which spells to add to the familiar's repertoire from that list.
Late night metaphysical conversations with the familiar (and patron through the familiar). He's basically got a traveling private tutor with him.
I was further disappointed when I saw the new patrons listed in Ultimate Magic and they *still* get no love with the binding spells. It seems that whenever I finally get to play a witch, I'll have to research some witchy version of those spells. :/
Or go with a binding patron:
1st Protection from Evil 2nd Ancestral Communion 3rd Magic Circle of Protection 4th Dimensional Anchor 5th Lesser planar binding 6th planar binding 7th Banishment 8th Greater planar binding 9th Gate
Brand new just for you -- but I think I'll be using it too.
I don't have Inner Sea World Guide yet. It's listed as Cleric 9 and Sorcerer/Wizard 9 on PFSRD. I would be happy to discover that it's a mere oversight.
I did not realize they reprinted the spell in Ultimate Magic. Well I guess one of them is a oversite...or witchs in Golarion are special and get it...
Though I ignore the fact that they took away prestidigation from the witch you could do the same.
I was further disappointed when I saw the new patrons listed in Ultimate Magic and they *still* get no love with the binding spells. It seems that whenever I finally get to play a witch, I'll have to research some witchy version of those spells. :/Or go with a binding patron:
1st Protection from Evil 2nd Ancestral Communion 3rd Magic Circle of Protection 4th Dimensional Anchor 5th Lesser planar binding 6th planar binding 7th Banishment 8th Greater planar binding 9th Gate
Brand new just for you -- but I think I'll be using it too.
That's a great idea for a new Witch patron there. Thanks for sharing it.
That's a great idea for a new Witch patron there. Thanks for sharing it.I was further disappointed when I saw the new patrons listed in Ultimate Magic and they *still* get no love with the binding spells. It seems that whenever I finally get to play a witch, I'll have to research some witchy version of those spells. :/Or go with a binding patron:
1st Protection from Evil 2nd Ancestral Communion 3rd Magic Circle of Protection 4th Dimensional Anchor 5th Lesser planar binding 6th planar binding 7th Banishment 8th Greater planar binding 9th Gate
Brand new just for you -- but I think I'll be using it too.
No problem -- I'm really fortunate that the spells involved are so precise and tidy in the way they line up with spell levels.
Transformation and Agility patrons offer the shape-shifting spells.
And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you purchase a spell scroll for any spell you want and feed it to the familiar?
Transformation and Agility patrons offer the shape-shifting spells.
And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you purchase a spell scroll for any spell you want and feed it to the familiar?
Any spell on the witch's spell list.
Any spell on the witch's spell list.
I was about to argue, but yeah, I see it now.
I'm generally dissatisfied with the official PF witch..given the chance I'd play the Four Winds version from Paths of Power..Witches with Books of Shadow and Ritual Magic just appeal to me
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I haven't had the opportunity to play a witch yet, but one thing that bugs me about their spell list is that they get none of the planar binding/ally spells; witches conjuring otherworldly spirits to do their bidding is pretty iconic to me, and so I was shocked when I saw that they lacked the ability to bring any of the big boys in (I know they get summon monsters, but those spells are short term combat spells).
I was further disappointed when I saw the new patrons listed in Ultimate Magic and they *still* get no love with the binding spells. It seems that whenever I finally get to play a witch, I'll have to research some witchy version of those spells. :/
I agree with Sayer_of_Nay here. The two big bad things about the witch are the exceedingly vulnerable (and unback-upable) familiar, and the spell list. I'm not sure what to do about the familiar (beyond starting your own coven, which has advantages - get a real hag to join and you've got the power! ).
The spell list, on the other hand is weird…
Assuming a 4 person party, you have great difficulty fulfilling either the arcane support (wizard) or healing/divine support (cleric) roles. As arcane you lack key buffs (eg protection from evil, haste), you lack key utility spells (eg water breathing, rope trick), and you lack personal defensive spells (eg shield, blur, mirror image). On the divine side, your healing is much lacking due to no channel energy, no spontaneous healing, and lack of condition removing spells – eg. Restoration, remove paralysis, ressurection, etc. As well, the lack of defensive capability makes this role much harder for a witch. This inability to fulfill certain roles makes the witch a class with a difficulty at playing well with others. It works well as a 5th character, but it’s harder to work as a core four…Finally, they are missing a huge amount of power effects at high level (contingency, PAO,...
I dislike their spell list as well. In addition, I dislike their hexes as many of them are almost purely RP. In theory that's not a huge issue, but in practice it's frustrating in PFS or non-RP heavy campaigns.
I went over their new options in Ultimate Magic, and I don't really see anything that answers their current deficiencies.
I certainly do. It should be about faith and the individuals inner understanding. Not a payoff.but I just think that begging deities for spells is a grossly inappropriate way to worship them. It's a thing.
And I realize there probably ain't a single other person agrees with me on that.
That's essentially the point I was trying to make with my post about clerical ethos.