| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If one were to use the Vital Strike feat with the Rod of Withering, would you deal 2d4 Con and 2d4 Str damage? I would think so, because the ability damage isn't bonus damage, it just plain replaces the mace's normal damage. By RAW, I *think* it should work, and that they'd only get a single save instead of two, as well.
No.
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
My bolding
It's not a damage bonus, though. It's not a Strength bonus, it doesn't come from a weapon ability such as flaming, shocking, or holy, it's not precision damage. To quote...
"A rod of withering acts as a +1 light mace that deals no hit point damage. Instead, the wielder deals 1d4 points of Strength damage and 1d4 points of Constitution damage to any creature she touches with the rod (by making a melee touch attack). If she scores a critical hit, the damage from that hit is permanent ability drain. In either case, the defender negates the effect with a DC 17 Fortitude save."
Note that it specifically says that instead of hit point damage, it deals the ability damage. Regardless of intention, it would seem to me that said damage would be multiplied by Vital Strike. The fact that it's not hitpoint damage doesn't enter into it at all. It's literally the weapon's new base damage.
The feat description clearly states that only the weapon damage is doubled not weapon abilities. What you are suggesting is doubling the weapon abilities. Doubling the hit point damage from the Rod of Withering gives you ZERO (because that is the weapon damage) plus the weapon abilities of d4 STR and CON damage.
What you are suggesting is doubling the weapon abilities which Vital Strike does not.
I fail to see the confusion that you have.
EDIT: More over you make a TOUCH attack with the Rod not a normal melee attack. This is why the Rod does no melee damage.
Well, first of all, touch attacks are a subtype of normal attacks, and can be either melee or ranged. The only rule difference between touch attacks and normal attacks are the AC value they go against. Anything else depends on the exact wording of the specific attack.
Second, the issue is what a "weapon ability" actually is. We know it's not just "any damage provided by a magical source" because then things such as magical enhancement bonuses, or the size weapon bonus from Gravity Bow wouldn't work. In fact, the only things we KNOW are defined as "weapon abilities" are properties such as shocking, frost, flaming, etc.
In every single one of those, it specifically refers to the damage as "extra" damage, i.e. bonus damage, and as such not included in Vital Strike. The wording of the Rod of Withering, on the other hand, states that it *replaces* the original damage, and doesn't add on to it as a bonus.
You have obviously made your mind up regarding this before posting to the boards. You have twisted the intent of the feat to suit your own intentions despite that RAW and RAI clearly, to me, indicate that what you are suggesting would not work.
Speak to your GM but if it was my game the answer is no.
Whoa, whoa. I'm just stating my interpretation, and asking for views on it. No need to get rude. While I agree it may not have been RAI, I'm pretty sure it fits with RAW unless there's some errata I'm not aware of that more sharply defines the term "weapon ability".
I'd already thought of your direction of debate earlier, and to me, it doesn't hold water if you're going by rules as written, because the Rod's damage is never called extra or bonus, as it is in all weapon abilities. I hate to sound like a rules lawyer, but wording is VERY important in how these sorts of things interact.
"A rod of withering acts as a +1 light mace that deals no hit point damage.
...
It's literally the weapon's new base damage.
...
We know it's not just "any damage provided by a magical source" because then things such as magical enhancement bonuses...wouldn't work.
There has been explicit clarification (beyond the fairly easy to interpret text of the feat) that absolutely nothing besides the damage dice (which deal hp damage) are included.
Ability damage is not weapon damage dice, therefore you do not roll it twice.
Hmm...well, while I think there might still be room for interpretation, it would have to border on houseruling, if not outright cross the line. I hadn't thought about that angle before. Seems to shut down my idea. This was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for pointing it out. Back to the drawing board, I guess.
Edit: Yeah, don't know what I was thinking when I mentioned enhancement bonuses there, Majuba. And as far as focusing on the hitpoint damage part...nonlethal damage isn't technically hitpoint damage either, but Vital Strike would still apply. Still, doesn't matter in the long run here.
No. As TOZ pointed out, ability damage and weapon damage dice are not compatible. You're welcome to houserule it any way you want, of course, but by RAW (and most certainly RAI) it doesn't work.
Can one use Vital Strike with a held touch spell?
Yes, and the weapon's damage dice would be doubled. So if you're delivering it via a natural attack, or Improved Unarmed Strike or whatever, those dice would double. If you're delivering it via a simple touch, there are no weapon damage dice, so nothing is doubled.
I agree. In another example, if you had a spell storing long sword with a shocking grasp inside, vital strike would only double the d8 of the sword, not the damage from the spell.
james maissen, I am not sure what your point is. You can't crit with shocking grasp, so wheter you crit with the weapon makes no difference to the discharge of the spell.
But VS doubles weapon damage, and I think that a rod is not really a weapon. It is a rod you touch people with to discharge a magical effect.
What if you had your sword of spell storing above with shocking grasp, and instead of hitting them with it, you touched them to discharge the electricity of the spell. Would that be doubled with vital strike? No. There is no weapon damage, only magic damage. That is the same with the Rod. As a weapon it does no damage, but touching someone with it discharges the magic.
You can't crit with shocking grasp
Not relevant to Vital Strike, but:
Shocking Grasp - Range: touch
Touch: "A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."
I believe it was stated by a developer that vital strike does not work with spells so that example is not a good one. I will try to find the post.
I was wrong, but I was close.
James Jacobs:
Vital Strike does not allow you to sneak out extra damage with spells unless that spell works like a weapon.
You could vital strike with a flame blade. Not with a scorching ray.
As for the ability damage that is a no. Ability damage is not weapon damage/hp damage.
Flame Blade works because it is a weapon like spell that does hp damage.
Good point about shocking grasp. Any spell with a to hit roll can crit.
If you had a LS of spell storing which is holding a spell that requires a to hit roll like shocking grasp, does a crit with the weapon also mean you crit with the spell automatically?
If it is allowed, seems like some keen spell storing falchion cheese is called for.
Compared to that, the bonus dice of damage from VS are small potatoes.
So this brings up another question. . .
Could a greater shadow get Vital Strike and use the feat with its incorporeal touch attack?
If so, the rod of withering does work with Vital Strike.
If not, the rod doesn't work with the feat.
Also, can someone post the relationship between hp damage (as opposed to ability damage) and Vital Strike? I'm not seeing anything. . .