Now, the group downed the Stag Lord, finally, but my Half-Orc Skirmisher/Beast Master Ranger ended up with one arm cut off by the now-sober Stag Lord (and man was the Stag Lord pissed about that!) and our Cavalier PC has left back to Restov after inter-PC conflict has made it clear he would be a highly unpopular King (in game, he's leaving because we're all a bunch of 'peasants' with no gratitude for all 'that he has done for us'. Player is actually eager to retire him and make a 'disciple' of my own now-retired Ranger, he's quite interested in the Beast Master archetype.), leaving us with an open 'Tank' Slot and my character effectively neutered, given his focus on fighting with both head and butt of a spear.
Now, I'd love to have continued with my Ranger, but one-armed as he is, he'd be unable to continue adventuring without some extreme cheesiness on everyone's part, so the GM is taking him as an allied NPC, likely be using him during the 'King-Making' sections of the game as an Warden or Marshal.
So I've been asked to fill the role of the 'tank', and while I love the Fighter Class, I'm looking for a 'bandit' or 'trapper' themed character, and a Barbarian feels very much like that sort of class, to me at least.
Now, would love to make another Half-Orc (race just appeals to me) but that would be cheesy, so a Human (ex-bandit, trapper, adventurer) or a Dwarf (miner, explorer, adventurer) would be the next 'logical' options.
I'm thinking One-handed Weapon and Heavy shield (a further tick towards the Dwarf Barbarian and the Dwarven Waraxe), heaviest armor I can wield and stocking the character equally with defensive and offensive gear, such as armor qualities that would make the Barbarian as tough as possibly to bring down while still allowing decent damage output.
Favoured Class Bonus to hit-points, which is a change from my usual choice of Skill Points (I like versatile characters, personally find a canny character can survive longer than a flat-out combatant can, if only by talking their way out of a fight or setting up the battlefield to their advantage), but I am wondering, which Barbarian Archetype should I be using?
'Standard' Barbarian is one I know and love well, adaptable and easily suited to an outdoors-turning-city campaign.
I am also looking at the Drunken Brute/Invulnerable Rager for flavour reasons as well combat effectiveness.
Does anyone have any suggestions on Rage Powers and Magic Item combos they wouldn't mind throwing at me while I try and get this character 'grounded' into the Game-World? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Any advice is welcomed.
I think you're selling the ranger short. Nothing stops you from picking up a shield, improved shield bash and simply going that route while still using your favorite spear. But *sigh* as you wish. Invulnerable rager all the way.
I think you're selling the ranger short. Nothing stops you from picking up a shield, improved shield bash and simply going that route while still using your favorite spear. But *sigh* as you wish. Invulnerable rager all the way.
Sorry, I should have mentioned, arm is gone just a few inches down from the shoulder joint. As I said, the Stag Lord was feeling rather pissy as our antics had completely cut off his booze.
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Big thing to remember is that, as a barbarian, you get an AC penalty whilst Raging. That's not fun. What's worse is that you take an additional penalty if you get the Reckless Rage power (which is almost too awesome to pass up). If you're going to go with a Barbarian "Tank," I recommend picking up the Shield and going a "Damage Soaker" route as far as tanking is concerned. With Barbarians it's generally easier to get your HP in the stratosphere and just take the damage as it comes (with your DR it gets even easier) than it is to get high AC... Unless you don't charge/rage, but then, why play a Barbarian?
Some very valid points
I know that Raging generates a lower AC, but the additional Strength and Constitution. It seems Invulnerable Rager is the path of choice, but am unsure how the Drunken Brute will interact with the Barbarian.
I'll be counting as much on my Damage Reduction as my AC and my absurdly high Hitpoints to keep me going, as well as being able to drink alcohol to replenish my Rage...
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Heavy Metal, Constitution is the key. I played a barbarian "tank" for our Council of Thieves game and had a lot of fun with it, with nearly 200 hp, AC 28 and DR 5/- at lvl 13. Look for AC and +Con, and feats and items that let you use your Con for other stuff.
My offense was a Furious Silver Earthbreaker with Power attack and Furious Focus (APG) and a +4 Str belt. "What does Bull do this round?" "I hit it, hard"
Defense was the best +Breastplate, ring, and amulet I could find, along with the AC and Dex ioun stones. Guarded Stance rage power is awesome. At lvl 12 your AC is actually better raging than not raging.
Try the feat combo of Endurance and Steadfast Determination (from the PHBII). Lets you add your Con to your Will saves instead of your Wis. With rage and the feat Raging Vitality, you do the math. My Will save was better than the cleric's.
Build does have two flaws: Lots and lots of HP's means you need lots and lots of healing. Also, straight energy damage kicked my butt. Reflex save was respectable, but with no defense against it the DM targeted me just to take me down a peg.
For a spin on the whole bruiser archetype I also focused on my Cha, with Intimidating Glare rage power at low level for economy of action. The feat Cornugon Smash from the Cheliax Companion lets you roll for demoralize on any target you hit with a power attack. At lvl 12 or 13 the rage power / feat combo of Dreadful Carnage and Terrifying Howl is superb. Knock a guy down, get a demoralize roll against everyone within 30 feet. If they fail, they are shaken. On next round Terrifying Howl. Everyone within 30 feet that is shaken must save or become panicked. Nice.
Other than that, I got a lot of use out of the Strength Surge rage power. Its the barbarian get out of jail free card.
-"Bull" Abrams. Quote: "They just dropped my favorite pub on my head! Someone's gonna pay..."
What level will you start him on?
How do you generate your ability scores? 15, 20 or 25 PB or rolling dice?
What's your starting wealth?
What other classes do you have in the group? Any healer, buffer, etc?
Does your group or you focus on role playing or are you planning on dumping your charisma 8 to 7?
As Rynthief pointed uot char can be useful, but if you don't want it here are som suggestions.
20PB dumping char to 8: Str 17, dex, 14 con 15, int 10, wis 13, char 8.
20PB dumping char to 7: Str 18, dex, 14 con 15, int 10, wis 12, char 7.
At lower levels shield and one handed weapon might be good but at higher levels you should probably use a THW. Killing foe fast = don't get hurt much. Also at higher levels you may find mithral armor. It cost you a feat to wear it, but that's fine.
I would stick to core barbarian. Uncanny dodge is great and you will get some DR at higher levels. Guarded Stance is a great power and you don't want to lose you dodge bonus, so Uncanny dodge is great. Foes not being able to flank you is also great, at you get that at level 5, unlike rogue :-)
Uncanny dodge/impr. Uncanny dodge well help you a lot when facing rogues.
This feat from the APG is a must, at least get it at level 5: Raging Vitality, +2 bonus to Con when raging, and continue raging if unconscious.
We don't use 3.5 books so I can't help you any advice regarding noncore books.
Ignore the people that think the barbarian doesn't tank well in terms of AC. Instead, go without armor and use potions of mage-armor to compensate AC and take Savage Warrior barbarian archetype. Get "guarded stance" rage-power, so by level 8 you don't suffer an AC penalty anymore while raging. Also human with superstition rage power (and favored class bonus in superstition) gives excessively remarkable saves while raging. I chose to go with less damage (by wielding shield and scimitar) but given that you crit 30% of the time and still have a very substantial plus to you damage roll, the damage stacks up quickly and stays substantial and relevant.
Nadhia is already quite high level (level 11). Her AC is 33, going up to 36 when fighting defensively, and in emergencies goes to AC 38 with the robe of blending (to change to a small creature). Have a look: Nadhia, Untamed Promise
Some other key things:
- witch hunter = extra damage against anybody that has spells or spell-like abilities
- raging vitality = almost compulsory for barbarians, in my opinion
- chaos totem rage tree = part 1 and 2 aren't really good for you - but the last one gives you half-level in DR overcome only by (rare) lawful attacks - this completely compensates for the lack of DR that the Savage Warrior gets and your tank now has really big AC, really big HP, and really good DR
stuff
I agree with LoreKeepe. If you, HalfOrcHeavyMetal, are using a shield scimitar is a good weapon, perhaps the best. With a scimitar you should pick critical focus and improved Crit.
superstition is risky. Always a risk cleric can't heal you and buffers can't buff you. I rather pick Clear Mind and Iron will. Iron will helps greatly.If you are planning on charging a lot dodge + mobility isn't bad. If you have the Uncanny dodge class feature dodge is far better than shield focus. If you going a "Damage Soaker" Uncanny dodge will help you.
Obvious feats:
Power attack, Raging Vitality, Iron will, improved Critical, Critical focus.
Other good feats: Step up, Furious Focus, dodge, mobility and Improved Iron will
If you don't want to focus on damage output I guess you can skip critical focus.
If you at higher levels find/buy a mithral full plate you pick Heavy Armor Proficiency or dimp one level into fighter, but I think you can get away with medium armor.
Edit:
If you play a barbarian without Uncanny dodge class feature, blind fight is not bad.
If you plan on using Intimidating Glare then Intimidating Prowess is a GREAT feat. Intimidating Glare is actually very nice. Especially if you tank and plan on being a Damage Soaker. Also it's a great because it gives you versatility and give you role playing opportunities.
Current Build
1) 5, 4, 1, 6 (-1 15)
2) 6, 6, 1, 3 (-1 15)
3) 6, 6, 3, 2 (-2 15)
4) 3, 1, 4, 4 (-1 11)
5) 5, 6, 2, 2 (-2 13)
6) 3, 5, 1, 5 (-1 13)
Str : 15 Dex: 15 Con: 18 (15+2 Racial +1 4th level increase) Int: 13 Wis: 11 Cha: 13
HD: 5d12 (38+20+5 Favoured Class Bonus) 63 Hitpoints (83 Raging, 20 rounds total)
AC: 22 (+7 Armor, +3 Shield, +2 Dex) (Flat-Footed 20, Touch 12) (+1 Chainmail, +1 Heavy Steel Shield)
BAB +5. Full Attack +8 (+1 Cold Iron Battle Axe (1d8x3 +3).) or Full Attack +7 (Mithril Shortsword (1d6 19-20/x2 +2) or +7 Composite (+2) Longbow (1d8x3+2). 20 Normal Arrows, 10 Silvered Arrows, 10 Cold Iron Arrows.)
Saves: Fort +8, Reflext +3, Will +3
Feats: Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Extra Rage.
Rage Powers: Renewed Vigor, Guarded Stance.
Misc Gear: Cloak of Resistance +1, Horned Helm with Eyes of the Eagle built into them, Handy Haversack . Adventuring Gear including spare clothing, tent and bedroll, 2 combat-trained dogs both with Masterwork Chain Shirt Barding. Also, 5 bottles of Oldlaw Whiskey, hehehe.
If you plan on using Intimidating Glare then Intimidating Prowess is a GREAT feat. Intimidating Glare is actually very nice. Especially if you tank and plan on being a Damage Soaker. Also it's a great because it gives you versatility and give you role playing opportunities.
Edit:
Swap Int or char for wisdom. If you keep int 13 you can get Combat expertise. It should stack with fighting defensively, but ask your GM. Make sure you have at least 3 ranks in acrobatics.
Boost str and cut down on con.
A) The +1 4th level increase to Str. = str 16 and con 17
B) The +2 racial to str and the +1 4th level increase to con = str 17 and con 16
The tank concept won't work that well on higher levels. Soaking damage isn't enough. You got to be able to deal damage.
Con 17 isn't bad. at higher levels you can buy a Manual of bodily health +1 and con boosting items. Also when hit hith con damage 17 con can be nice.
I would swap Extra Rage for Raging Vitality. Raging Vitality will give you 1 more HP each level when you rage, boost your fort saves and stops you from getting killed when unconscious. Raging Vitality is the perfect tank feat.
Renewed Vigor suck. believe me and it scales horrobly. Get Intimidating Glare or Clear Mind instead.
Basically:
Boost wisdom and str.
Swap Extra Rage for Raging Vitality
Con 18 + Extra Rage is overkill. Drop the feat or settle for con 16 or 17. The feat will quickly become obsolete, con won't.
It will demand some resource management but with a higher str score you won't need to rage every round each encounter. Regardless of your current build you will probably need resource management anyway.
Skills: Max intimidate and perhaps perception to. Spread the remaining skills on Acrobatics, Survival, Knowledge nature, Climb, swim, etc.
Unfortunately, those stats are rolled, so no swapping around in that regard. I don't plan on upping my Constitution any more than it already is, so I'll be focusing more upon Dexterity and Strength on the inevitable Belt of Manliness.
And you're correct on the Raging Vitality. I'll swap out Extra Rage for Raging Vitality, grants more hit-points and allows me to swap the Constitution Bonus over to Strength.
Stats and Skills (Favoured Bonus to Hit-Points, retaining standard Human Traits, keeping Int 13 for the bonus skill-points (I can't help myself, I LOVE Skills....) and after much soul-searching, decided that tacking on the Drunken Brute wasn't going to be fun.) are as follows:
Str : 17 (15+2 Racial) Dex: 15 Con: 16 (15+1 4th level increase) Int: 13 Wis: 11 Cha: 13
Skills: Acrobatics 9, Climb 9, Handle Animal 8, Intimidate 12(5+3 Class Skill +1 Cha +3 Str via Intimidating Prowess), Knowledge (Nature) 7, Perception 8, Survival 7, Swim 9.
Will aim for Intimidating Glare, Terrifying Howl and then stack Increased Damage Reduction.
Yes, I missed that LOL. So I edited my post.
As I pointed out in my edited post Renewed Vigor suck and it scales horribly. Get Intimidating Glare or Clear Mind instead.
Yes I love skills to so I would keep int as well. You could trade char 13 for wis 11.
One fun thing, when you rage you Str increase so does you bonus to intimidate :-)
@HalfOrcHeavyMetal, given your stats, I'd go with:
Str 15
Dex 18 (15 + 2 racial + 1 level 4)
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 11
Cha 13
AC 23 (4 armor , 3 shield, 4 dex, 2 dodge)
Flat 23
Touch 16
Feats: raging vitality, dodge, intimidating prowess, power attack
Rage Powers: superstition, intimidating glare
level 6: witch hunter (+2 damage to any enemy that has spells or spell-like abilities, goes to +3 at level 8)
level 7: cornugon smash (to allow you to intimidate as a free action with power attacks)
level 8: guarded stance (only at level 8 since then it has enough impact)
level 9: terrifying howl (via extra rage power feat)
Superstition has risks, but the reward is nigh impenetrable saves. Spells work fine on you while you're not raging - so I play my barbarian as only raging in the second, or sometimes third round of combat. That way I can save on rage rounds and gain relevant buffs. If you desperately need healing, you can risk stopping rage - and a cleric's channels can still heal you (though only at half-healing if you succeed on the save you have to make against it).
Also, you gain armor bonuses as you level:
level 3: +1 dodge
level 7: +1 natural armor
level 9: +1 dodge
level 10: +1 natural armor
level 13: +1 natural armor
level 15: +1 dodge
level 16: +1 natural armor
level 19: +1 natural armor
Couple this with the ability to have a +8 bracer of armor by level 16, and you've got some serious AC going for your tank.
Thank you Liz, had completely forgotten to add that *facepalm*
I'd like to thank everyone for their input, but the GM has thrown me a curveball. He's asked I stick it out with my now one-armed Half-Orc Beast Master/Skirmisher, under the agreement that during the year of time between now and the next 'phase' of the campaign, I can 'retrain' my feats and instead of having a Druid level equal to my level -3, it will be a full level progression.
Under the same agreement, I get the arm regenerated or otherwise repaired/replaced, I lose that bonus and go back to an effective Druid level of Ranger -3.
Again, I would really, really like to thank everyone who participated. I'm currently forwarding the information in this thread to our former cavalier, who sounds quite interested in the Savage Barbarian (note that nowhere in the description does it state he has to be naked, just Unarmored .... thank the Gods!)
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IMO barbarians are best played with polearms and bows, not 5'-reach weapons and not by charging.
-- The way you offset your horrible AC is to make the enemy come to you through a hail of missile fire and then impale himself on your AoOs.
(Of course there's no defense all, except Heavy Fort, against a loaded crit-deck.)