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Are there any places on the web authorized to sell the pdfs LEGALLY? I'm looking to downsize my print collection (several bookcases IS getting a little ridiculous) and instead keep e-copies of most products.
Thanks in advance.
Per Paizo:
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
They also promised to revisit the issue.<--- I called shenanigans on that one when it came up. One day when I get free time I might go and bump that thread. <evil grin>
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I emailed WotC customer support the other day to ask whether there was any movement on the PDF policy (re 3.5 and 4e PDFs) and if not to suggest that it should be reviewed again, here is the reply I got:
Thank you for contacting us. There has not been a public announcement as to and future plans to move in the direction of PDF publishing for the D&D books. The only the the customer service team would be allowed to speak about would be something that were announced. With that said we place great value in the feedback, ideas, and suggestions of our customers and I will be happy to pass this along as feedback. I assure you that Game Support meets with teams around the company on a regular basis, and we make it a priority that your voice is heard. While we cannot guarantee a direct response, we can promise that your thoughts and concerns are being passed along to the right people.
I emailed WotC customer support the other day to ask whether there was any movement on the PDF policy (re 3.5 and 4e PDFs) and if not to suggest that it should be reviewed again, here is the reply I got:
Thank you for contacting us. There has not been a public announcement as to and future plans to move in the direction of PDF publishing for the D&D books. The only the the customer service team would be allowed to speak about would be something that were announced. With that said we place great value in the feedback, ideas, and suggestions of our customers and I will be happy to pass this along as feedback. I assure you that Game Support meets with teams around the company on a regular basis, and we make it a priority that your voice is heard. While we cannot guarantee a direct response, we can promise that your thoughts and concerns are being passed along to the right people.
Company PR response, IMHO. I don't want to threadjack so I will stay silent on the issue with any other thoughts.
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Company PR response, IMHO. I don't want to threadjack so I will stay silent on the issue with any other thoughts.
Oh definately, basically "we are not authorised to tell you anything that hasn't been officially announced". Whether they will pass on my suggestion to reinstate PDF sales I can't say, but I would hope so.
Are there any places on the web authorized to sell the pdfs LEGALLY? I'm looking to downsize my print collection (several bookcases IS getting a little ridiculous) and instead keep e-copies of most products.
Thanks in advance.
Per Paizo:
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
If you have access to a good quality handheld document scanner, you could always make decent pdfs from your books. Since you already own them and aren't making the copies for any sort of commercial use, this should be fine (but time consuming, to say the least.)
If you have access to a good quality handheld document scanner, you could always make decent pdfs from your books. Since you already own them and aren't making the copies for any sort of commercial use, this should be fine (but time consuming, to say the least.)Are there any places on the web authorized to sell the pdfs LEGALLY? I'm looking to downsize my print collection (several bookcases IS getting a little ridiculous) and instead keep e-copies of most products.
Thanks in advance.
Per Paizo:
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
Also, be careful, if you do this you can't also get rid of your print copy. You need to still retain it to prove you have a right to the electronic copy (that you yourself made). Also, if you distribute copies to anyone else, you would be in violation of the laws.
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Also, be careful, if you do this you can't also get rid of your print copy. You need to still retain it to prove you have a right to the electronic copy (that you yourself made). Also, if you distribute copies to anyone else, you would be in violation of the laws.If you have access to a good quality handheld document scanner, you could always make decent pdfs from your books. Since you already own them and aren't making the copies for any sort of commercial use, this should be fine (but time consuming, to say the least.)Are there any places on the web authorized to sell the pdfs LEGALLY? I'm looking to downsize my print collection (several bookcases IS getting a little ridiculous) and instead keep e-copies of most products.
Thanks in advance.
Per Paizo:
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
Exactly. And I'm trying to make more space, not make copies (even for myself) :(
Oh definately, basically "we are not authorised to tell you anything that hasn't been officially announced". Whether they will pass on my suggestion to reinstate PDF sales I can't say, but I would hope so.
Sadly, I suspect any future offering will be in the form of some sort of web viewing service that you can only have access to with an active DDI account. Assuming they bother to give access in the future.
Which is a shame, I loved when they opened up all of the archives for sale via PDF. I bought a number of old modules that I had lost over the years. Others which I never owned but were recommended to me. PDF sales of out of print books did nothing to dampen 3.X sales.
Part of what makes me a happy Paizo customer is their extensive PDF support.
I don't care about edition wars but the whole stopping people selling pdfs of old stuff thing really annoys me.
A small number of older PDFs were made available for free on wizards.com over the years. (I couldn't tell you how to find them, assuming they're even still there, but somebody else might be able to.)
They were still available for a while after the sales were stopped, but they've since taken the page down. The link to it on their site now redirects to the front page.
A small number of older PDFs were made available for free on wizards.com over the years. (I couldn't tell you how to find them, assuming they're even still there, but somebody else might be able to.)They were still available for a while after the sales were stopped, but they've since taken the page down. The link to it on their site now redirects to the front page.
Try here.
Or more generally here.
I suspect that WOTC is going to leave the 3.x PDFs dead and buried for perpetuity. They were having major issues with people making pirate versions of those PDFs and decided that there wasn't a workable way around it that they cared to implement.
Maybe at some point they'll wise up and use Paizo's watermarking system, but in that even it might be for 4.x materaial and later only.
There is a workable way.
1. Stamp CC-BY-SA licenses on all them, and re-release them saying that we won't make money on these so you can play and create with these books. After all, this planet has an internet, and we can make far more money on our non-rivalrous goods (printed books) if we use the non-rivalrous goods (content) to sell them.
2. Release them into the Public Domain and post them on the Gutenberg Project site.
I think they are opting for option 3, however.
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A small number of older PDFs were made available for free on wizards.com over the years. (I couldn't tell you how to find them, assuming they're even still there, but somebody else might be able to.)They were still available for a while after the sales were stopped, but they've since taken the page down. The link to it on their site now redirects to the front page.Try here.
Or more generally here.
Thanks, pres man. Quick glass shows them to be either articles or mods, not the core books or, especially, the supps like the later MMs or Complete series. I'll continue to hold onto them as I rid myself of mods.
I suspect that WOTC is going to leave the 3.x PDFs dead and buried for perpetuity. They were having major issues with people making pirate versions of those PDFs and decided that there wasn't a workable way around it that they cared to implement.
Maybe at some point they'll wise up and use Paizo's watermarking system, but in that even it might be for 4.x materaial and later only.
There is a workable way.
1. Stamp CC-BY-SA licenses on all them, and re-release them saying that we won't make money on these so you can play and create with these books. After all, this planet has an internet, and we can make far more money on our non-rivalrous goods (printed books) if we use the non-rivalrous goods (content) to sell them.
2. Release them into the Public Domain and post them on the Gutenberg Project site.
[b]I think they are opting for option 3, however.[b/]
I had to read that twice to catch it for some reason. I do agree with you though.
Thanks, pres man. Quick glass shows them to be either articles or mods, not the core books or, especially, the supps like the later MMs or Complete series. I'll continue to hold onto them as I rid myself of mods.A small number of older PDFs were made available for free on wizards.com over the years. (I couldn't tell you how to find them, assuming they're even still there, but somebody else might be able to.)They were still available for a while after the sales were stopped, but they've since taken the page down. The link to it on their site now redirects to the front page.Try here.
Or more generally here.
Right, the books were never released for free pdfs officially, though several have free web enhancements that you can find in the 3.5 archives. I assumed the links is what Vic was referring to when he was talking about free pdfs.
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Maybe at some point they'll wise up and use Paizo's watermarking system, but in that even it might be for 4.x materaial and later only.
WotC D&D PDFs that were on sale through DriveThruRPG.com were watermarked (both 3.5 and 4e ones), what Paizo has done is nothing new. In fact it was because of the watermarks that WotC were able to catch and charge some people who put up watermarked D&D PDFs on file share sites.
A small number of older PDFs were made available for free on wizards.com over the years. (I couldn't tell you how to find them, assuming they're even still there, but somebody else might be able to.)
These items are still available through the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine.
Maybe at some point they'll wise up and use Paizo's watermarking system, but in that even it might be for 4.x materaial and later only.WotC D&D PDFs that were on sale through DriveThruRPG.com were watermarked (both 3.5 and 4e ones), what Paizo has done is nothing new. In fact it was because of the watermarks that WotC were able to catch and charge some people who put up watermarked D&D PDFs on file share sites.
They also used to sell PDFs here at Paizo with the exact same watermark system Paizo uses.
It really was a stupid over-reaction they did. I can understand decided to delay the release of PDFs of new books for X months (even up to a year) to help prevent immediate piracy. But to kill off access to older books? Especially books that had already been sold to customers?
A small number of older PDFs were made available for free on wizards.com over the years. (I couldn't tell you how to find them, assuming they're even still there, but somebody else might be able to.)They were still available for a while after the sales were stopped, but they've since taken the page down. The link to it on their site now redirects to the front page.Try here.
Or more generally here.
Thanks for the links!
I assumed the links is what Vic was referring to when he was talking about free pdfs.Obviously I can't speak for Vic, but I assumed he meant the older edition PDFs that Fayries linked to a few posts above mine (this one)...
Right, sorry, I thought we were still looking at 3.x pdfs.
Could one not keep the outer cover of the modules as a "proof of purchase" rather than keeping the 34 to 50 pages internally......
I am just thinking that you could take all the inside pages out and pitch them to save yourself space!
Disassembling the books would also making scanning them easier - like on a flatbed scanner.
It really was a stupid over-reaction they did.
Not really. It would be an over-reaction if the reason they gave us was the actual one - the piracy nonsense.
The real reason was twofold: 1: FU, 2: We want 3e dead.
For that, it was hardly an overreaction. It didn't help nearly enough.
It really was a stupid over-reaction they did.
Not really. It would be an over-reaction if the reason they gave us was the actual one - the piracy nonsense.
The real reason was twofold: 1: FU, 2: We want 3e dead.
For that, it was hardly an overreaction. It didn't help nearly enough.
*Yawn* yes, yes, bad evil WotC trying to put the 3rds down.
Yet funny, they also pulled their 4e pdfs as well, which would be silly if they were trying to only kill older editions. But let us not let logic get in the way of our nerdrage and all that.
Down with the Hasbro lackeys!
Thanks for those links pres man! I thought that page was gone forever.
Far more likely than any attempt to kill 3E is that Hasbro mgmt. fundamentally just doesn't get it.
If they can't plug it into a (pre-formatted) ROI spreadsheet, well then it doesn't exist. They're stuck in the 20th century, and think that PDFs represent giving away the keys to the kingdom. It's like the RPG version of the RIAA: So very sad. And like the RIAA, I wish they'd finish dying off and get out of the way.
For any Paizo folks reading this: Make no mistake, the PDF situation is one of the key reasons you get my money and WotC does not.
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It really was a stupid over-reaction they did.
Not really. It would be an over-reaction if the reason they gave us was the actual one - the piracy nonsense.
The real reason was twofold: 1: FU, 2: We want 3e dead.
For that, it was hardly an overreaction. It didn't help nearly enough.
*Yawn* yes, yes, bad evil WotC trying to put the 3rds down.
Yet funny, they also pulled their 4e pdfs as well, which would be silly if they were trying to only kill older editions. But let us not let logic get in the way of our nerdrage and all that.
Down with the Hasbro lackeys!
They're not evil, they're just acting like a bunch of headless chickens. With herpes. Set on fire. :)
For any Paizo folks reading this: Make no mistake, the PDF situation is one of the key reasons you get my money and WotC does not.
I bought 2 Adventure Paths of PDFs when that happened and have spent much more since.
Chief Technical Officer
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In a way, meaning no offense, neither do you. What you fail to understand is that the Pathfinder market has a very different genesis than the old D%D market. The D&D market was built up around hobby shops, and gamer groups that flourished within them and for the most part TSR and it's successors sold it's products through these brick and mortar stores and kept it's market loyalty through those outlets.
The Pathfinder market is a much smaller subset of the gamer group which has it's core dis-enchanted gamers who were resisting the change to 4.0 and weren't interested in really going that far afield into a radical new game system from anyone else either. They were lured into a new venue run by folks who used to work for the old venue and the market for Pathfinder has been mainly an Internet market with the hobby stores almost an afterthought.
The problem with PDFs for Wizard is very much linked to the problems with Amazon, B&N, for the brick and mortar stores. Those stores, who are already suffering with the economic downturn for general reasons were seeing thier buisness being bled away by online sales of PDFs. The folks at Hasbro may have very well decided that they couldn't afford to have thier core trunk of market flow be sunk by this essentially Internet only venue. And given that the honest sale of PDF files was leading to a mushrooming of bootleg PDFs, they may have come to the only conclusion possible to save their core buisness.
The market of Pathfinder never has been that of the market of 4.0... but it also wasn't the market of 3.X either. It's a considerably smaller market that's much more intimately tied to the product publishers and community and that I suspect is the basic article of faith that Paizo is riding on. The bulk of rules material that Paizo has released for the Pathfinder is also available for free on the varied SRD sites. You download...
Wow. There are just piles of inaccuracies in your view of things, especially the Pathfinder audience. While it's true that we certainly started with a lot of 3.5 players who didn't want to play 4E, we've brought *plenty* of other players to the table, and the ratio of new players to pre-4.0 converts increases every day. And, though we don't release sales figures, I'm confident (given your statements) that you personally would be stunned at the size of our market, and at how much of it flows through brick-and-mortar stores.
And if you think that "the honest sale of PDF files was leading to a mushrooming of bootleg PDFs", what do you think happened to the number of bootleg PDF downloads when the option of an honest sale went away?
WOTC/Hasbro can't survive that way. They evolved in a different era, built a different structure, and a different market that can not simply be ported over to "the Paizo way", any more than you can espect someone who was born in the 1950's to adapt to the present world the same way that those birthed in the 90's can. And it's height of insensitivity to expect them to just quietly yield to oblivion and blow away on the winds becaue of that.
That paragraph especially befuddles me. Forget about Wizards or Paizo for a second—you're seemingly saying that old-fashioned companies can't be expected to survive if they try to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's completely backwards—old-fashioned companies won't survive if they *don't* adapt to a changing marketplace. Heck, even brand-new companies like Paizo have to adapt to survive. Remember, just a few short years ago, we were a magazine publisher surviving solely on a couple of licensed products.
In a way, meaning no offense, neither do you. What you fail to understand is that the Pathfinder market has a very different genesis than the old D%D market. The D&D market was built up around hobby shops, and gamer groups that flourished within them and for the most part TSR and it's successors sold it's products through these brick and mortar stores and kept it's market loyalty through those outlets.
The Pathfinder market is a much smaller subset of the gamer group which has it's core dis-enchanted gamers who were resisting the change to 4.0 and weren't interested in really going that far afield into a radical new game system from anyone else either. They were lured into a new venue run by folks who used to work for the old venue and the market for Pathfinder has been mainly an Internet market with the hobby stores almost an afterthought.
The problem with PDFs for Wizard is very much linked to the problems with Amazon, B&N, for the brick and mortar stores. Those stores, who are already suffering with the economic downturn for general reasons were seeing thier buisness being bled away by online sales of PDFs. The folks at Hasbro may have very well decided that they couldn't afford to have thier core trunk of market flow be sunk by this essentially Internet only venue. And given that the honest sale of PDF files was leading to a mushrooming of bootleg PDFs, they may have come to the only conclusion possible to save their core buisness.
The market of Pathfinder never has been that of the market of 4.0... but it also wasn't the market of 3.X either. It's a considerably smaller market that's much more intimately tied to the product publishers and community and that I suspect is the basic article of faith that Paizo is riding on. The bulk of rules material that Paizo has released for the Pathfinder is also available for free on the varied SRD sites. You download it ,tailor it and print as you will. The only reason I can see Paizo releasing virtually all of it's material this way is that in a way, Paizo isn't really selling Pathfinder as a game system. They're selling THEMSELVES. as a company, as a group of artists and publishers that you will choose to support... by buying paid editions of this work that's being released as freely available.
WOTC/Hasbro can't survive that way. They evolved in a different era, built a different structure, and a different market that can not simply be ported over to "the Paizo way", any more than you can espect someone who was born in the 1950's to adapt to the present world the same way that those birthed in the 90's can. And it's height of insensitivity to expect them to just quietly yield to oblivion and blow away on the winds becaue of that.
It may be the "height of insensitivity," but it's inevitable. The world is changing -- WotC can adapt, or they can die.* Right now, just like the RIAA, they appear to be opting for "die." Publishing of all types is undergoing rapid transformation, and no one quite knows what the new models are going to be. What we do know is that no one has managed to really make a subscription site work on a large scale. I sincerely doubt WotC is going to crack it where so many other, smarter folks have failed.
For the record, I prefer the mechanics of 4E, and was a WotC customer for the first year or so of 4E.
* "Die" being cease to be a major RPG publisher. I have no delusions of them going out of business. But I will be quite surprised if WotC doesn't either:
(1) shelve D&D, or
(2) release a new edition
...sometime in the next year.
Bugleyman,
It's wonderful that you agree. Yes, WotC is in a position where publishing is changing. I may be radical (saying that the copyright system is broken by the Internet, but I only call it as I see it), but I see the change happening rapidly all the time.
Many publishers and writers see the Internet as a threat. Some really don't. Some do, but they do dumb things. Others still worry about pirates. However, the Internet has changed the game plan for everyone. Those that survive are realizing that one can use the non-rivalrous good (content) to sell a rivalrous good (an RPG book, or a CD, or a novel).
The world is changing. Publishers must adapt, or they will die. The new Models that will succeed the best are the cobbler model (the Artist as a cobbler) and another more traditional model that accepts Sharing as the best way to sell non-rivalrous goods.
The Internet has changed the world because it is the best copying machine devised. It is the culmination of over 500 years of research in printing and communication technology.
The problem with PDFs for Wizard is very much linked to the problems with Amazon, B&N, for the brick and mortar stores. Those stores, who are already suffering with the economic downturn for general reasons were seeing thier buisness being bled away by online sales of PDFs. The folks at Hasbro may have very well decided that they couldn't afford to have thier core trunk of market flow be sunk by this essentially Internet only venue.
And since you don't need so many books with the content in the character builder, how does the likelihood that DDI is cutting into their physical book sales figure into your analysis?
WotC clearly is trying to move toward a more internet-centric business model. Dragon and Dungeon magazines are another point of evidence in that direction. But I think the evidence also directs us to believe that model is a subscription-driven one, not one based on electronic media sales.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is interesting to me.
For me PDFs are about 'credit' more than anything. I could aquire PDFs of White Wolf's WoD books (which I don't get a chance to play anymore, I enjoy reading) illegally, but I buy them (at, I feel over charged prices) because I want to give the credit (and sales data) to White Wolf.
When I put a PDF of something on google docs, I don't charge for it (but I will take donations :P ) because I don't feel it's worth buying. I enjoy creating when I can, and sharing that. It's the credit that I want. I get a warm and fuzzy feeling when I hear stories of how the tankard of the cheeful duelist shows up in a game.
I have a 40 hour a week job I enjoy, I'm lucky enough that I don't have to write for profit.
Heck, if I can get out of this current writing slump and come up with a pitch to KQ, and get it published I wouldn't even need to be paid. Just seeing my name in print is enough for me.
Especially with OOP products. If WotC (or anyone) put out their OOP worlds out there for sale, then they could get a 'grognard's market' of what people want. Notice your Greyhawk products are selling briskly in PDF? Then maybe you should put out a dead tree Greyhawk and see how it sells. No one is buying your Dragonlance PDFs? Then you likely should shelve that 'big book of dragonlance' you have in the pipeline.
Sure there are going to be pirates. I found Danse Macabre (from White Wolf) out there mere days after release. You know what? I bought the PDF anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Subscription model.
I think in addition to the subscription model (Something Catalyst needs to look at, if they ever get a decent release schedule) there's another sign of 'things to come' but it's more of a look back,
Reputation.
The Vatican didn't pick some guy off the street to do the Sistine Chappel. They chose Michalango. Rembrant didn't become famous because he could draw the duck on the pack of matches (anyone remember those ads?) Classical artists had reputation.
Now I'm not comparing Monte Cooke to Rafael (or any other turtle) but the patronage model is an example of this. No one would prepay for 'Matt's marvelous items' (and with my erratic creativity I'd never ask) But Open Design has little problem with scoring patrons, and didn't people sign up for the ill fated Razor Coast or the more successful Dungeonaday because it was Nick Louge and Monte Cook behind them respectively?
Both RPG Superstar and WotC's adventure submission guidelines (Thanks for the info Scott) allow the companies to find new talent by sorting through a lot of chaff to find the wheat* and help new writers to cement some reputation. If I ever did release for sale "Matt's Marvelous Items" for sale I would have some credit with the regulars on the board because of my past experience in RPG Superstar. If the hypothetical product was good, then that reputation would spread through the 'community' and lead to increased interest in subsequent publications**
So for our 'niche market' the delivery model is changing. If this will affect larger markets, will remain to be seen.
*
**
The industry is changing. And you know what? WotC helped change it. The first PDFs I ever bought were old D&D modules (B Series) that I had lost over the years. It was WotC putting their back catalog on PDF that helped put OBS on the map. I don't remember if it was as soon as 3E was released, but it definitely was well before 3.5.
I'm fairly certain it comes down to management at WotC looking at their yearly PDF sale profits and comparing it to their DDI profits and deciding that giving the pirates access to high quality PDFs wasn't worth it for them. I do think it is a shame they decided to go that route, because I think it cost them customer good will and only delays the pirates about 2 days.
Which reminds me, I should find that Dragon Magazine CD/PDF collection while they are still relatively available.
Sure there are going to be pirates. I found Danse Macabre (from White Wolf) out there mere days after release. You know what? I bought the PDF anyway.
The best way to fight piracy is to share in the first place.
http://questioncopyright.org/node/535
This post on QCO is Nina Paley getting frustrated with people ASKING her all the time. I'd rather have my inbox indunated with emails of people who don't get Creative Commons licensing asking me for permission to use this or this in their books than sending DCMA takedown notices. I'll only have to use DCMA takedown notices against cheeky publishers who think they can post my stuff and say they wrote it (with a healthy dose of threatening to sue for Plagarism or outright Fraud).