I got to thinking about levels in my homebrew world. I'm thinking about this as a setup...
Assuming the entire world has 1,000,000,000 sentient creatures in it (that is, 1 billion), and that sentient creatures refers to both humans and non, then I believe the following would work well...
50% of the population at any given time is only level 1. That includes all children, helpless elderly, untrained apprentices and so on. Each increase in level results in half that many people. So 2nd level = 25% of the population, 3rd level = 12.5% of the population, etc.
That get's me numbers that look like this...
1/0.5/500000000
2/0.25/250000000
3/0.125/125000000
4/0.0625/62500000
5/0.03125/31250000
6/0.015625/15625000
7/0.0078125/7812500
8/0.00390625/3906250
9/0.001953125/1953125
10/0.0009765625/976563
11/0.00048828125/488281
12/0.000244140625/244141
13/0.0001220703125/122070
14/0.00006103515625/61035
15/0.000030517578125/30518
16/0.0000152587890625/15259
17/0.00000762939453125/7629
18/0.000003814697265625/3815
19/0.0000019073486328125/1907
20/0.00000095367431640625/954
So that puts 20th level characters at less than about a 1000 scattered over the world. Some places would have higher concentrations than others, of course. Powerful city states would have a higher level of retired high-level adventurers than others. Monsters with CR & Levels would fall into their level equivalent only (IE: A CR 4 creature with 3 class levels falls into the 7th level).
The only problem I have with this is that this puts the vast majority into the 1 to 6 level. Not really what I wanted though.
My other option is to put 90% of the population in the 10 or less, say 25% 1st level, 20% 2nd level, 15% 3rd, 10% 4th, and continuing on from there.
1/0.25/250000000
2/0.2/200000000
3/0.15/150000000
4/0.1/100000000
5/0.075/75000000
6/0.05/50000000
7/0.0275/27500000
8/0.025/25000000
9/0.0225/22500000
10/0.02/20000000
11/0.0175/17500000
12/0.015/15000000
13/0.0125/12500000
14/0.01/10000000
15/0.01/10000000
16/0.0075/7500000
17/0.005/5000000
18/0.002/2000000
19/0.0005/500000
20/0.00025/250000
This get's me 90% of the population at 9th level or less, and 99% at 15th level or less. I think that works a little better, plus it opens up the 20th level to a more reasonable number given the population.
Beyond that, I'm considering the following rules for class levels.
NPC classes use Fast Progression (explaining why they are more 'popular'), while PC classes use Standard Progression.
I use a 'passive xp' system for NPCs whereby they accumulate XP based on experience and their mental faculties. It results in most humans hitting 2nd level sometime between the age when they'd graduate high school or college, and perhaps 4th or 5th level by retirement.
Long-lived races like elves tend to be abouth 4th or 5th level by the time they reach the 'age of majority' which is the primary reason why other races go 'oooh aaah' when they behold them — anyone is going to be a lot more impressive with a few levels under their belt.
Granted, I've typically used the standard progression for this, but if you want for a more dynamic range of NPC levels then the fast progression should work just fine. I believe the method I used was something like:
1xp/day + avg(int+wis)/week
The theory that 'you learn something new every day' translating into 1xp/day, while natural aptitude results in people being able to 'absorb' more of what's going on around them in the world.
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That second one seems to me to make high level characters way too common to keep the basic D&D assumptions about, say, a dragon being dangerous to a village in place.
Let's look at a village of 100 people using that second system (rounding up on .5 of a person and above, down on less than that):
25 will be 1st level
20 will be 2nd level
15 will be 3rd level
10 will be 4th level
8 will be 5th level
5 will be 6th level
3 will be 7th level
3 will be 8th level
2 will be 9th level
2 will be 10th level
2 will be 11th level
2 will be 12th level
1 will be 13th level
1 will be 14th level
1 will be 15th level
That's an Adventuring Party's worth of 12th level+ people right there. Anything CR 12 or less threatens this village with a near certainty of death. Anything CR 15 or less with high odds of death. And that's a small village, imagine a city of, say, 25,000. That's 250 15th level characters!
Now you could argue that all the high level people move to cities, but first off that doesn't necessarily make good logical sense, and second it only moves the problem, it doesn't get rid of it (in fact, it makes it worse in the cities).
And slightly OT, but I did a thread doing this for Golarion (sorta). It can be found here.
If you're familiar with Golarion's basic assumptions that might be useful to you. You could, for example, have a look at it and then use it for a baseline for changes (i.e: Double or quadruple the prevalency of 7th level+ characters if you want more of them, or whatever). Or not.
@the David
Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. Not that I'm looking for Realistic for my homebrew, just internally consistent. :)
@DeadManWalking
That actually doesn't work out too bad for me. Remember, although they'd have a good handful of 10th level people in that 100 person shire, 85% of them would be NPC class. So, that 15th level is probably an Expert or Warrior, or multiclassed. Either way, 9 NPC class people who are 10th or higher might be a problem for a CR 13 dragon.. maybe, but you're also looking at the village losing the cream of it's crop to fight off that dragon, and that's not even considering how many bystanders would be killed. I don't see the village sacrificing the top 10% of their population to fight one dragon, not when there might be some orcs showing up as soon as the dragon is gone. If we assume even distribution, those 9 NCPs are likely to be 1 Noble (leader), 4 warriors, 2 experts, and 2 adepts. If we assume 15% of people are PC class, then change one warrior to a fighter. And, they'll be outfitted as NPCs, not PCs. So... yeah, feeling pretty good about that after analyzing it.
EDIT : And as to the 25,000 person city... yeah, 250 15th level people (about 225 of which are NPC class) seems about right. A lot of those may be non-combat types (experts etc). And, most cities of 25,000 people are not at all concerned about being attacked except during times of war. And then, people bring 5,000 people or so to attack cities, at least.
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@DeadManWalkingThat actually doesn't work out too bad for me. Remember, although they'd have a good handful of 10th level people in that 100 person shire, 85% of them would be NPC class. So, that 15th level is probably an Expert or Warrior, or multiclassed. Either way, 9 NPC class people who are 10th or higher might be a problem for a CR 13 dragon.. maybe, but you're also looking at the village losing the cream of it's crop to fight off that dragon, and that's not even considering how many bystanders would be killed. I don't see the village sacrificing the top 10% of their population to fight one dragon, not when there might be some orcs showing up as soon as the dragon is gone. If we assume even distribution, those 9 NCPs are likely to be 1 Noble (leader), 4 warriors, 2 experts, and 2 adepts. If we assume 15% of people are PC class, then change one warrior to a fighter. And, they'll be outfitted as NPCs, not PCs. So... yeah, feeling pretty good about that after analyzing it.
Awesome, then. It's a bit high level for my personal tastes, but if it sounds right to you, then your system has accurately done what you wish it to do. Go you! :)
I've been using the 50% rule for NPCs, with the additional rule that only about 10-20% of the population has PC class levels.
This results in the following distribution:
Level 1+, 1 out of 10 NPCs
Level 2+, 1 out of 20 NPCs
Level 3+, 1 out of 40 NPCs
Level 4+, 1 out of 80 NPCs
Level 5+, 1 out of 160 NPCs
Level 6+, 1 out of 320 NPCs
Level 7+, 1 out of 640 NPCs
Level 8+, 1 out of 1280 NPCs
Level 9+, 1 out of 2560 NPCs
Level 10+, 1 out of 5120 NPCs
Level 11+, 1 out of 10,240 NPCs
Level 12+, 1 out of 20,480 NPCs
Level 13+, 1 out of 40,960 NPCs
Level 14+, 1 out of 81,920 NPCs
Level 15+, 1 out of 160,000 NPCs
Level 16+, 1 out of 320,000 NPCs
Level 17+, 1 out of 640,000 NPCs
Level 18+, 1 out of 1,280,000 NPCs
Level 19+, 1 out of 2,500,000 NPCs
Level 20+, 1 out of 5,000,000 NPCs
This usually ends up with a Level 7th character tucked away in most villages, but he might be a friendly druid, or might be an evil wizard. Cities will probably have NPCs in the teens of levels.
As for the NPC classes, I assume about half the population is too old or too young to fight, so about 40% of the population has NPC levels. About half of them will be women who may or may not consider fighting, depending on the culture.
For my 17th Century campaign, I'm considering using a factorial distribution where 2nd level characters are half as common as 1st level, 3rd level characters are 1/3 as common as 2nd level, etc. Assuming 10% have PC class levels:
1 out of 20 will be 2nd plus
1 out of 60 will be 3rd plus
1 out of 240 will be 4th plus
1 out of 1200 will be 5th plus
1 out of 7200 will be 6th plus
1 out of 49,000 will be 7th plus
1 out of 400,000 will be 8th plus
1 out of 3,600,000 will be 9th plus
1 out of 36,000,000 will be 10th plus
1 out of 330,000,000 will be 11th plus.
This is more realistic
I read that article, and I have to say that I disagree with it.
1. With regard to ability scores, these have evolved from the classic rule of rolling 3d6 for each score. This means that in a population of 216, there is a 50% chance that somebody has an 18 in a specific ability score. This implies that NPCs with high ability scores are relatively common.
An interesting observation about using 3d6 for NPCs and 4d6 drop 1 for PCs (My practice is to roll 4 or more d6 keep three for key abilities for NPCs, but straight 3d6 for other abilities.): This means that NPCs are much more likely to have low ability scores than PCs are. Fighters with a Wisdom of 4. Wizards with a Dexterity of 5. There aren't going to be very many PCs with scores this low, but many NPCs will.
2. With regard to Einstein, I've done an analysis using an "Intellect Level Theory" I was deriving for a science fiction campaign. IL Theory is designed to be independent of any game system, but mapping it back to D&D implies that an Intellect Level of 8 maps to an Intelligence of 20-23. I had defined Level 8 as being as smart as Einstein, which means that Einstein must be at least 8th level to have an Intelligence of 20 to meet the qualifications for Intellect Level 8. Intellect Level 8 means that he is smart enough to derive the Theory of Relativity.
Consider, the great scientists don't just answer difficult physics problems, but answer physics problems that nobody else can answer. That must mean that the DC of these physics problems is beyond almost everybody's reach. If the DMG says you can solve String Theory with a DC of 35, I'd think about it, and say, no, it's probably a lot harder to solve String Theory. I would set the DC at about 50 or 60.
Depends on the power level of your campaign but I like the 50% rule, or just over.
Many of the more out worldly feats, magics, skills happen around 5th and 6th level, which I like to restrict from my mundanes (cut out npc's).
Otherwise everyone would have continuous flame lighting, resurrection would alter views on battles and dueling, ships would be build with bags of holding as the cargo bays, etc..
Keeping a statistical cut off at around 5th level helps to keep the medieval feel.
PC's, of course, can usually find what the need when the need it.
Might cost in gold or deed but its there.
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This is more realisticI read that article, and I have to say that I disagree with it.
I disagree with a few basic points too, but I think the basic theory holds sound.
For Ability Scores, I'd say that you're right...but it doesn't devalue the basic point of the article. Sure, there's a Str 18 guy in every 500 people or so...and everyone knows he's really strong, thinks of him as the strongest guy in the room, and is aware of his badassness. Ditto the Int 18 guy.
How does that devalue the article again?
Now, on Einstein, I tend to agree he'd need to be 8th level, though, in Pathfinder, I'd peg his base Int at 20 for a total of 22. Combined with a +11 from Ranks and Favored Skill and Skill Focus he'd have a +20 on Physics...which sounds rightish for the greatest Physicist ever.
This assumes he's the greatest Physicist ever, of course, I'd be inclined to drop him to 4th level and a +15 and reserve the 8th level +20 for Steven Hawking, personally.
And again, how does this devalue the basic point of the article? I.e. that 5th-6th level in D&D is the effective peak of human ability in real life, with maybe a very few people above that? That sure sounds about right to me.
When I was looking at making a campaign setting around the E6 feel, I checked out some world population info. Interesting read. The last chart gives population by region too.
If you are playing E6, and thus things are fairly low magic (so no magic to replace technology), then you can sort of mimic our own world and figure out a population base around that.
I think I started with the concept of a "one in a million" type of person (one who was 6th level and had something like 10 extra feats worth of post 6th experience), and worked my way backwards from there.
Using this chart to get better numbers for medieval times (~200-300 million people), you can pin down how many people you want, and how many nations who'd have high level people in them, and work your way backwards (perhaps highest level is only one in 50 million).
Now, on Einstein, I tend to agree he'd need to be 8th level, though, in Pathfinder, I'd peg his base Int at 20 for a total of 22. Combined with a +11 from Ranks and Favored Skill and Skill Focus he'd have a +20 on Physics...which sounds rightish for the greatest Physicist ever.
This assumes he's the greatest Physicist ever, of course, I'd be inclined to drop him to 4th level and a +15 and reserve the 8th level +20 for Steven Hawking, personally.
One thing a lot of people forget is circumstance and equipment modifiers. That and aid another.
The way a lot of things are figured out in real life, is by building on the work others have laid out before, and working with others in collaboration.
Aid Another from books and material, or simply from colleagues, could easily push skill checks much higher than needed.
Also.. an Int of 20 is quite possible at low levels, at least in Pathfinder standards (rolled or bought starting stat at 18, with a +2 racial bonus).
And again, how does this devalue the basic point of the article? I.e. that 5th-6th level in D&D is the effective peak of human ability in real life, with maybe a very few people above that? That sure sounds about right to me.
Agreed. Specifics aside, the concept is really quite sound. You can argue semantics of his examples, but in general you are still shooting at a low number.
20th level characters need to be assumed as something heroic and mythical, and beyond our normal concepts of humanity. 20th level fighters are Hercules, just like 20th level Wizards are like Dr. Impossible (at least mentally).
In our E7 campaign, I'm using kind of a 25% method. In a country of a million:
1 = 1 000 000 * .75 = 750 000
2 = 250 000 * .75 = 187 500
3 = 62 500 * .75 = 46 875
4 = 15 625 * .75 = 11 718
5 = 3906 * .75 = 2 930
6 = 976 * .75 = 732
7 = 244 * .75 = 183
7+ = 61
So there's more 7th level characters in the world than it's usually 20th level characters in the world, but they're still fairly rare.
This is more realisticI read that article, and I have to say that I disagree with it.I disagree with a few basic points too, but I think the basic theory holds sound.
For Ability Scores, I'd say that you're right...but it doesn't devalue the basic point of the article. Sure, there's a Str 18 guy in every 500 people or so...and everyone knows he's really strong, thinks of him as the strongest guy in the room, and is aware of his badassness. Ditto the Int 18 guy.
How does that devalue the article again?
Now, on Einstein, I tend to agree he'd need to be 8th level, though, in Pathfinder, I'd peg his base Int at 20 for a total of 22. Combined with a +11 from Ranks and Favored Skill and Skill Focus he'd have a +20 on Physics...which sounds rightish for the greatest Physicist ever.
This assumes he's the greatest Physicist ever, of course, I'd be inclined to drop him to 4th level and a +15 and reserve the 8th level +20 for Steven Hawking, personally.
And again, how does this devalue the basic point of the article? I.e. that 5th-6th level in D&D is the effective peak of human ability in real life, with maybe a very few people above that? That sure sounds about right to me.
Id give the title to Sir Isaac Newton, who basically created the foundation of classical physics. Including the great mystery of the time, the universal law of gravitation, which he solved while bored and had to be bugged to write it down again.
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Id give the title to Sir Isaac Newton, who basically created the foundation of classical physics. Including the great mystery of the time, the universal law of gravitation, which he solved while bored and had to be bugged to write it down again.
Newton was primarily a mathematician, and only incidentally a Physicist. I'd still put him in the "really ridiculous" category, though.
Id give the title to Sir Isaac Newton, who basically created the foundation of classical physics. Including the great mystery of the time, the universal law of gravitation, which he solved while bored and had to be bugged to write it down again.Newton was primarily a mathematician, and only incidentally a Physicist. I'd still put him in the "really ridiculous" category, though.
True. But thinking in game terms, Newton was meeting those high DCs without the resources that later physicists did. No real bonus from librarys, few collegues using aid another (Edmond Halley). Minimal funding. Likely his inherent skill would be greater to make those checks.
This can give a good baseline to establish how high level NPCs might interact with the world. But high level casters can have such a far-reaching sphere of influence as to have no real world comparison.
personally I consider level 20 to be almost unheard of. If a town has a level 20 in it then they can flip off the dragon and his army of orcs. (assuming PC levels) and with teleportation he can defend multiple towns, that leaves nowhere threatened by anything short of an ancient dragon, which seems ridiculous that you have so many running around your world. (you have like 3 level 20 parties with PC levels).
personally I consider level 20 to be almost unheard of. If a town has a level 20 in it then they can flip off the dragon and his army of orcs. (assuming PC levels) and with teleportation he can defend multiple towns, that leaves nowhere threatened by anything short of an ancient dragon, which seems ridiculous that you have so many running around your world. (you have like 3 level 20 parties with PC levels).
Why would level 20's be concerning themselves with a CR 15 dragon and a hundred CR 5 orcs? Put another way, does your level 12 Barbarian bother with 30 CR 1/2 goblins? Or does he tell the town to go hire someone new to the gig, as that jobs not worth his time?
I love how people assume a level 20 adept is going to be flitting all over the world with teleport saving everone from dragons. First off, that level 20 adept might be evil. :) And he's more worried about taking control of an entire kingdom. Or, the level 20 expert might be working on a new type of medicine that's going to take the rest of his life to perfect and he has no time to be dealing with dragons and such nonsense, he's quite likely going to hire some level 13 adventurers with some of the gold he's amassed over time and let them go deal with the dragon. :)
Level 20 PC parties are usually in a plane someplace... aren't they?
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Id give the title to Sir Isaac Newton, who basically created the foundation of classical physics. Including the great mystery of the time, the universal law of gravitation, which he solved while bored and had to be bugged to write it down again.This is more realisticI read that article, and I have to say that I disagree with it.I disagree with a few basic points too, but I think the basic theory holds sound.
For Ability Scores, I'd say that you're right...but it doesn't devalue the basic point of the article. Sure, there's a Str 18 guy in every 500 people or so...and everyone knows he's really strong, thinks of him as the strongest guy in the room, and is aware of his badassness. Ditto the Int 18 guy.
How does that devalue the article again?
Now, on Einstein, I tend to agree he'd need to be 8th level, though, in Pathfinder, I'd peg his base Int at 20 for a total of 22. Combined with a +11 from Ranks and Favored Skill and Skill Focus he'd have a +20 on Physics...which sounds rightish for the greatest Physicist ever.
This assumes he's the greatest Physicist ever, of course, I'd be inclined to drop him to 4th level and a +15 and reserve the 8th level +20 for Steven Hawking, personally.
And again, how does this devalue the basic point of the article? I.e. that 5th-6th level in D&D is the effective peak of human ability in real life, with maybe a very few people above that? That sure sounds about right to me.
I'd say that nobody on earth is higher than 5th lvl. This is a very compelling article that agrees with me. It is D&D but PF and D&D are very similar systems.
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
That's the article they were talking about (see the link in the words "This is more realistic").
Why would level 20's be concerning themselves with a CR 15 dragon and a hundred CR 5 orcs? Put another way, does your level 12 Barbarian bother with 30 CR 1/2 goblins? Or does he tell the town to go hire someone new to the gig, as that jobs not worth his time?
I love how people assume a level 20 adept is going to be flitting all over the world with teleport saving everone from dragons. First off, that level 20 adept might be evil. :) And he's more worried about taking control of an entire kingdom. Or, the level 20 expert might be working on a new type of medicine that's going to take the rest of his life to perfect and he has no time to be dealing with dragons and such nonsense, he's quite likely going to hire some level 13 adventurers with some of the gold he's amassed over time and let them go deal with the dragon. :)
Actually yes, for the castle and its kingdom that I'm paid to do it my barbarian happily slaughters all goblins on sight.
Mr. level 20 wizard and his warrior friend can live pretty keeping small nuisances like a horde of orcs, wyrvens, demons, and their red dragon friend (okay so not so small for the town) away.
And I said nothing about an adept, please re-read, out of how many level 20's around your world their is still a fair amount with PC levels.
People are whatever level is necessary for the plot! :P
Why would level 20's be concerning themselves with a CR 15 dragon and a hundred CR 5 orcs? Put another way, does your level 12 Barbarian bother with 30 CR 1/2 goblins? Or does he tell the town to go hire someone new to the gig, as that jobs not worth his time?
I love how people assume a level 20 adept is going to be flitting all over the world with teleport saving everone from dragons. First off, that level 20 adept might be evil. :) And he's more worried about taking control of an entire kingdom. Or, the level 20 expert might be working on a new type of medicine that's going to take the rest of his life to perfect and he has no time to be dealing with dragons and such nonsense, he's quite likely going to hire some level 13 adventurers with some of the gold he's amassed over time and let them go deal with the dragon. :)
Actually yes, for the castle and its kingdom that I'm paid to do it my barbarian happily slaughters all goblins on sight.
Mr. level 20 wizard and his warrior friend can live pretty keeping small nuisances like a horde of orcs, wyrvens, demons, and their red dragon friend (okay so not so small for the town) away.
And I said nothing about an adept, please re-read, out of how many level 20's around your world their is still a fair amount with PC levels.
I guarantee if I were running your game, and offered your barbarian a job to go kill 30 goblins for 100gold pieces, and your barbarian was 12th level, you'd turn down the job in character and go looking for a job with more interest. Also, if you did such jobs exclusively, you would never make it to level 20 before you died of old age. There aren't enough goblins in the world.
My point was, the higher you go, the more you are drawn into things bigger than one hamlet, one city, even one country.
As to the question of how many, 37,500 20th level PC class people world wide. That sounds like a lot until you realize that posited the 1 billion people on the planet that's 0.00375% of the population, and it includes sentient CR 20 creatures. Remember, I was including a CR 14 sentient creature with 6 levels (after adjustment per CR/Class rules in bestiary) as a level 20. That also means those CR 19 elder dragons are included in the level 19s, and so on.
That means for every 26,666 sentient's on the planet, there's one level 20 something (elder dragon with a class level, 20th level drow cleric, 20th level fighter, 20th level alchemist, 20th level monk, etc). And to my way of thinking, that's not unusual. They'd be operating at a whole different level than the other 26 thousand people around them.
People are whatever level is necessary for the plot! :P
LOL, good point. However, if you want things to be consistent, you need to think about these things. What I find funny is everyone saying a world should have no one over level 12 except the PCs, but yet, they can find magic items that require caster levels in the upper teens. How? Nobody alive can make them. How are they peppered throughout the world? How can the BBEG who's CR 17 be defeated if the only people that can defeat him are the PCs? It just doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't mind the PCs being in the top 10% of the world, that makes perfect sense. But the top 0.0005%? Nah, not so much.
My one and only issue with your assumptions is the sentient population size. one billion seems low for all the fey, dragons, aberrations, goblinoids, as well as the core races, monstrous humanoids, etc. 2 billion seems to be more likely as a lot of those sentients ecologies allow them to survive in places where in the real world humans cannot (strictly subterranean, aquatic and the like)
My one and only issue with your assumptions is the sentient population size. one billion seems low for all the fey, dragons, aberrations, goblinoids, as well as the core races, monstrous humanoids, etc. 2 billion seems to be more likely as a lot of those sentients ecologies allow them to survive in places where in the real world humans cannot (strictly subterranean, aquatic and the like)
Well, my world has only 4 continents.
The northern continent is huge, but sparsly populated (war devastated it 1300 years ago, killed off 2/3rds of the population). Those who survived the war were either monstrous humanoids, or else they fled to the southern continent.
The southern continent is over populated, and they tend to in fight regularly over resources, so that's a population cap.
The eastern continent is rather small, about the size of Australia.
The last continent is about the size of Madagascar (it's really an oversized island) that floats in the clouds, so strict population control there.
I'm thinking the populations are 600,000,000 on the southern continent, 200,000,000 on the northern continent, and 200,000,000 on the eastern continent (the few hundred thousand on the floating continent are not really contributing).
I readily admit that I don't bother counting the oceanic dwellers, but that has more to do with them not being all that much there. The ocean god is a real evil tyrant (CE deity) that prevented Sea Elves, Sea Orcs, etc from developing. So there's not a huge amount of sentient's in the ocean on this world. What few there are usually worship the CE deity. So mermaids and such either live right at the coastline (and thus count as part of the 'surface' population) or in rivers (again, surface population).
I use a 'passive xp' system for NPCs whereby they accumulate XP based on experience and their mental faculties. It results in most humans hitting 2nd level sometime between the age when they'd graduate high school or college, and perhaps 4th or 5th level by retirement.
On a message board that went down years ago without me having saved it, someone posted a rebuild of sorts of the NPC classes along with an experience system for NPCs that gave them a certain amount of XP on an annual/monthly basis for things like maintaining a business, raising a family, etc. It also tweaked the classes to make them a viable one-level dip for a player character for flavor purposes, and I think had a system for starting off at level one in an NPC class and replacing it with an appropriate PC class level. I'm not sure I'd have used the whole thing, but I wish I'd saved it and this reply reminded me of it.
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I'm a fan of Justin Alexander's analysis that was linked above.
In my homebrew campaign settings, most people are level 1, lots of people (especially professional types and crafters) make level 3, Important or heroic people on a local scale are level 3-4, heroic people on a national scale are 5 or 6, and Internationally heroic folks are level 7+
Of course, those numbers cover normal NPCs. Antagonists (nasty villains, monsters, and evil overlords) can be any level, just like the PCs.
I'm a fan of Justin Alexander's analysis that was linked above.
In my homebrew campaign settings, most people are level 1, lots of people (especially professional types and crafters) make level 3, Important or heroic people on a local scale are level 3-4, heroic people on a national scale are 5 or 6, and Internationally heroic folks are level 7+
Of course, those numbers cover normal NPCs. Antagonists (nasty villains, monsters, and evil overlords) can be any level, just like the PCs.
The big problem I have with that is that it doesn't make sense to me. If I've got a billion people on the planet (all sentient creatures totaled), that says that the PCs at level 5 become 1 in 200,000,000 people. Considering how often the PCs can change, and that there's always someone of an appropriate level to take the place of a fallen comrade, well... that boggles the mind.
It also means that if even 10% of the higher level baddies joined forces they'd steamroll the rest of the planet under their iron shod walking appendange, and there wouldn't be a thing the rest of the world could do about it. Heck, a group of 10 LN wizards of level 8 could devastate a continent with relative impunity given that background that most of the population is level 1 to 3.
I readily admit that I don't bother counting the oceanic dwellers, but that has more to do with them not being all that much there. The ocean god is a real evil tyrant (CE deity) that prevented Sea Elves, Sea Orcs, etc from developing. So there's not a huge amount of sentient's in the ocean on this world. What few there are usually worship the CE deity. So mermaids and such either live right at the coastline (and thus count as part of the 'surface' population) or in rivers (again, surface population).
What I am saying is you appear to not have Derro, Drow, Duregar, Orcs, or other subterrainean dwellers who rarely if ever live on the surface nor intelligent aberrations, dragons, fey folks, and the like taken into account in your numbers or do they just not exist? Even the CE worshippers of the ocean god arent taken into account which means you need to inflate your base sample size and each tier after that. i think your ratios are a good starting point you just seem to be artifically limiting your pool.
not that its the end of the world it a freaking game after all :)
I readily admit that I don't bother counting the oceanic dwellers, but that has more to do with them not being all that much there. The ocean god is a real evil tyrant (CE deity) that prevented Sea Elves, Sea Orcs, etc from developing. So there's not a huge amount of sentient's in the ocean on this world. What few there are usually worship the CE deity. So mermaids and such either live right at the coastline (and thus count as part of the 'surface' population) or in rivers (again, surface population).What I am saying is you appear to not have Derro, Drow, Duregar, Orcs, or other subterrainean dwellers who rarely if ever live on the surface nor intelligent aberrations, dragons, fey folks, and the like taken into account in your numbers or do they just not exist? Even the CE worshippers of the ocean god arent taken into account which means you need to inflate your base sample size and each tier after that. i think your ratios are a good starting point you just seem to be artifically limiting your pool.
not that its the end of the world it a freaking game after all :)
LOL,
I took 1 Billion as a nice round number. :) I was looking for all the sentients to be represented (land wise) by that number. I can up it, it's not like it costs me anything. However, I was looking for big giant cities to be about 500,000 people (IE: THE big cities that everyone on a continent knows about). So if I have one of those gigantic cities per country, and say 10 of 100,000 person cities per country, and a 100 towns at 10,000 people and 200 shires at 500 people and a 1000 of the 50 person villages... I don't think a country adds up to more than about 5 million people. Make it a dozen countries, and your only looking at 60 million living on the surface and in civilized lands. Now, double that for the underground civilizations and that's 120 million. That leaves for all the other weird things on my heavily populated continent over 480 million. Even if I double the numbers and have 1 million in each major city, and 500,000 in each big city, we're only looking at 240 million above and below ground.My cities are not like modern cities. Nothing above 12 floors in buildings, and most running one to 6 floors, so a million people in that sort of city is enormous. Think of London in 1600, it was only populated by a little over 200,000 people. It was one of the biggest cities in Europe at the time, but it only had a little over 200,000 people in it. London didn't even hit the million inhabitant mark until 1800. London's peak population was around 1940, with a little over 8.5 million residents.
So, I think for a fantasy realm flair, 500,000 in the biggest city in a country is pushing it a bit. So, I think having 600 million inhabitants for the heavily populated continent, including all sentients in that count, is ok.
If we look at Earth, we didn't hit 1 billion humans until around 1800. Think about that. :) In the year 1000, we had about 310 million humans on the planet.
So, yeah, I feel ok with 1 Billion for my fantasy world. :)
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This is more realisticI read that article, and I have to say that I disagree with it.
The articles base assertion is that the math of the game makes realistic human limits at about level 5 if you assume that most NPCs of the world operate on the standard array. I'm curious as to how you disagree with that premise?
I would argue that the first distribution is more accurate. He has about 1000 lvl 20 per 1B people. IRW there are about 500 billionaires in a population of 6-7 Billion people, so being a lvl 20 Char is a little more frequent than being a Billionaire. It's frequent enough that you know of a few off the top of your head but in reality they are very rare.
You can also think of relative monetary power to compare levels as well. A lvl 10 PC (100Mil net worth) is strong enough to take on just about any thing he may encounter. Unless he's in a really dangerous environment he should be able to solo all but the most powerful creatures in his area.
I would argue that the first distribution is more accurate. He has about 1000 lvl 20 per 1B people. IRW there are about 500 billionaires in a population of 6-7 Billion people, so being a lvl 20 Char is a little more frequent than being a Billionaire. It's frequent enough that you know of a few off the top of your head but in reality they are very rare.
You can also think of relative monetary power to compare levels as well. A lvl 10 PC (100Mil net worth) is strong enough to take on just about any thing he may encounter. Unless he's in a really dangerous environment he should be able to solo all but the most powerful creatures in his area.
Hmmm, I kind of like the first one myself from an aesthetics reason, but it pushes everything too far down to the low end.
Maybe something in between?
80% distributed across the first 10 levels, then 20% distributed across the next 10 levels?
Id give the title to Sir Isaac Newton, who basically created the foundation of classical physics. Including the great mystery of the time, the universal law of gravitation, which he solved while bored and had to be bugged to write it down again.Newton was primarily a mathematician, and only incidentally a Physicist. I'd still put him in the "really ridiculous" category, though.
In my Intellect Level theory, based in part on observations and reading, I would say a "Level 8 Intellect" could be a scientist, or a mathematician, or an artist, or a general, or anybody else who figures things out. It seems to me that for a human being to get to Level 8 Intellect, it is not enough to just be smart, but the person also has to put a lot of effort into it.
I forgot that Pathfinder allows humans to add +2 to any stat. I was thinking 3.5 where the max starting Int for a human is 18, and thus assuming he uses all stat increases for Intelligence, he can have an Intelligence of 23. In pathfinder, he could get to 25 (before enhancements) and be at Level 9. What to do? What to do? I suppose an "Einstein" in Pathfinder can be eight levels less than an "Einstein" in 3.5.
stuffWhere it really gets confusing is when you add in Non-heroic class levels to the equation. Is a lvl 20 non-heroic as rare as a lvl 20 heroic? Because that seems senseless. I lvl 5 heroic could likely beat a lvl 20 non-heroic.
For me it seems easy to say "Yes, an Xth level NPC classed character is as common/rare (relative to 1st level NPC classed characters) as an Xth level PC classed character is relative to 1st level PC classed characters.
For me it seems easy to say "Yes, an Xth level NPC classed character is as common/rare (relative to 1st level NPC classed characters) as an Xth level PC classed character is relative to 1st level PC classed characters.stuffWhere it really gets confusing is when you add in Non-heroic class levels to the equation. Is a lvl 20 non-heroic as rare as a lvl 20 heroic? Because that seems senseless. I lvl 5 heroic could likely beat a lvl 20 non-heroic.
You're right, it's very easy to say it.
It's not valid, but it's very easy to say.
The very concept of NPC classes indicates that they are much more common than PC classes. My world would be 17 out of 20 people would have NPC classes, while the remaining 3 would be either PC classes or non-standard CR driven sentients or creatures (dragons, non-class level boosted creatures, etc).
So, no, there would be many more 20th level experts (probably working in research, or as great kings, or world renown shipwrights, etc) than there would be 20th level rogues or bards.
with all this talk of high levels and such, has anyone ever run into a 12th level commoner? a 9th level expert? Or a 15th level aristocrat? Has the goblin king ever been an 8th level adept?
I personally have never seen any NPC of this level that hasn't worked in PC levels (ie expert 3/fighter 5)
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with all this talk of high levels and such, has anyone ever run into a 12th level commoner? a 9th level expert? Or a 15th level aristocrat? Has the goblin king ever been an 8th level adept?
I personally have never seen any NPC of this level that hasn't worked in PC levels (ie expert 3/fighter 5)
Nope, and in Golarion (and many other settings) such characters are rare as hen's teeth (though they do exist, particularly Aristocrats of 8th-12th level or so). But that not relevant, because this is mdt's custom campaign world, so he can do whatever he likes with it without worrying about that kind of thing. If he wants his world to have a fair number of level 20 Experts? Then it does.
I wouldn't mind seeing a King who was an 18th level Aristocrat....
The most used Npc class has to be warrior, but even then, never see very high levels.
We play alot of low magic, so I use Adepts alot as the villainous casters. Particularly for non Pc races, like goblins.
with all this talk of high levels and such, has anyone ever run into a 12th level commoner? a 9th level expert? Or a 15th level aristocrat? Has the goblin king ever been an 8th level adept?
I personally have never seen any NPC of this level that hasn't worked in PC levels (ie expert 3/fighter 5)
In real life I've run into some people who would probably become high level commoners or experts. These are people who just have so much energy, which they apply to their jobs and hobbies. While everybody else is playing games, drinking, and watching TV, these guys are building things just to keep active.
In my Audor campaign, I played up the frontier aspect by saying that the people in these villages know that they are far from the cities and the castles, and when the orcs and goblins and hobgoblins come raiding, they have to defend their towns. As a result, they are not easily intimidated, and PCs who run amuck are surprised to find out that the commoners usually have crossbows and simple weapons within easy reach.
If there is any trouble, there will probably be 4th and 5th level commoners around who survived past goblin raids and have some military skill.
with all this talk of high levels and such, has anyone ever run into a 12th level commoner? a 9th level expert? Or a 15th level aristocrat? Has the goblin king ever been an 8th level adept?
I personally have never seen any NPC of this level that hasn't worked in PC levels (ie expert 3/fighter 5)
Game Mastery Guide
King, Aristocrat 16, Page 293Queen, Aristocrat 12, Page 293
Chieftan, Warrior 12, Page 307
Noble, Aristocrat 10, Page 289
Mayor, Aristocrat 3/Expert 7, Page 309
Guide, Expert 9, Page 277
Princess, Aristocrat 8, Page 292
That's just the ones with NPC classes. If we want to go with 8+ NPCs that have Mixed or PC classes....
Master, Monk 15, Page 275
High Priest, Cleric 13, Page 305
Cult Leader, Cleric 10/Rogue 2, Page 279
Pirate Captain, Fighter 7/Rogue 5, Page 281
Sage, Expert 7/Abjurer 5, Page 297
Captain, Expert 3/Fighter 9, Page 295
Saint, Paladin 12, Page 269
Bounty Hunter, Ranger 12, Page 283
Bandit Lord, Fighter 8/Rogue 4, Page 259
Merchant Prince, Expert 4/Rogue 6, Page 285
First Mate, Expert 4/Fighter 5, Page 295
There's more, but basically, anything from the GMG for NPCs with a CR 7 or higher is 8+ on the level scale (and one or two at the CR 6 are 8+ due to NPC class levels).
Considering that's core rules, and none of the archetypes above are unheard of, especially guide, princess, prince, bandit lord, sage, captain of the guard, etc, then I'd say there's a lot more 8+'s in Golarion than most of you give credit for.
And... as was pointed out, we're discussing not just Golarian here. :)
EDIT: Oh, and as to the Goblin King? Well, the Goblin Shaman could be an Adept 7 (page 307). :) So I think a goblin king could rank up there with a princess at warrior 8. ;)
with all this talk of high levels and such, has anyone ever run into a 12th level commoner? a 9th level expert? Or a 15th level aristocrat? Has the goblin king ever been an 8th level adept?
I personally have never seen any NPC of this level that hasn't worked in PC levels (ie expert 3/fighter 5)
Game Mastery Guide
King, Aristocrat 16, Page 293
Queen, Aristocrat 12, Page 293
Chieftan, Warrior 12, Page 307
Noble, Aristocrat 10, Page 289
Mayor, Aristocrat 3/Expert 7, Page 309
Guide, Expert 9, Page 277
Princess, Aristocrat 8, Page 292That's just the ones with NPC classes. If we want to go with 8+ NPCs that have Mixed or PC classes....
Master, Monk 15, Page 275
High Priest, Cleric 13, Page 305
Cult Leader, Cleric 10/Rogue 2, Page 279
Pirate Captain, Fighter 7/Rogue 5, Page 281
Sage, Expert 7/Abjurer 5, Page 297
Captain, Expert 3/Fighter 9, Page 295
Saint, Paladin 12, Page 269
Bounty Hunter, Ranger 12, Page 283
Bandit Lord, Fighter 8/Rogue 4, Page 259
Merchant Prince, Expert 4/Rogue 6, Page 285
First Mate, Expert 4/Fighter 5, Page 295There's more, but basically, anything from the GMG for NPCs with a CR 7 or higher is 8+ on the level scale (and one or two at the CR 6 are 8+ due to NPC class levels).
Considering that's core rules, and none of the archetypes above are unheard of, especially guide, princess, prince, bandit lord, sage, captain of the guard, etc, then I'd say there's a lot more 8+'s in Golarion than most of you give credit for.
And... as was pointed out, we're discussing not just Golarian here. :)
EDIT: Oh, and as to the Goblin King? Well, the Goblin Shaman could be an Adept 7 (page 307). :) So I think a goblin king could rank up there with a princess at warrior 8. ;)
That's all generic hub bub and mish mash, that's not someone that has been statted up for interaction in a module, or actually been run into in live game play.
Anywhere in a paizo module or an actual game where you have run into any NPC with more than a smattering of NPC class that's high level?
That's all generic hub bub and mish mash, that's not someone that has been statted up for interaction in a module, or actually been run into in live game play.Anywhere in a paizo module or an actual game where you have run into...
Uhm,
How am I supposed to answer that then? I routinely use NPCs that are up to 20th level, depending on who they are, what's going on, etc.When I'm playing in a game, I don't ask the GM what level people are in the game, I just interact with them. It's not like I take out a yardstick and put it up against each NPC I meet in a game and say 'How big is your *****'.
I don't use APs or Modules.
Your criteria are, I'm sorry to say, unreasonable. You are asking for something stated up for Golarion. If you won't accept NPCs from the core book that lists NPCs, then I suggest you go look at any AP thats for 15th to 20th level characters, I'm sure there will be some 12+ NPCs stated up in them.
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The big problem I have with that is that it doesn't make sense to me. If I've got a billion people on the planet (all sentient creatures totaled), that says that the PCs at level 5 become 1 in 200,000,000 people. Considering how often the PCs can change, and that there's always someone of an appropriate level to take the place of a fallen comrade, well... that boggles the mind.
That makes perfect sense to me. The PCs should be one-in-a-billion characters. They are the protagonists! By definition, they are the most important people in the world.
There's a wonderful line in the first season of the revamped Doctor Who, where Mickey kind of scowls at the Doctor and says something along the lines of "Look at you! You act as if the entire universe revolves around you!"
To which the Doctor smiles and replies "Well, yeah, it kinda does!"
It also means that if even 10% of the higher level baddies joined forces they'd steamroll the rest of the planet under their iron shod walking appendange, and there wouldn't be a thing the rest of the world could do about it. Heck, a group of 10 LN wizards of level 8 could devastate a continent with relative impunity given that background that most of the population is level 1 to 3.
Forget the high-level baddies, the PCs will eventually "steamroll" the game world - it's inevitable past a certain point, really. Thankfully, there will always be some dire threat that needs their attention somewhere which should keep them too busy to destroy everything.
Although, think about it - destroying a league of evil like that is the perfect job for a band of exceptional adventurers.
That makes perfect sense to me. The PCs should be one-in-a-billion characters. They are the protagonists! By definition, they are the most important people in the world.There's a wonderful line in the first season of the revamped Doctor Who, where Mickey kind of scowls at the Doctor and says something along the lines of "Look at you! You act as if the entire universe revolves around you!"
To which the Doctor smiles and replies "Well, yeah, it kinda does!"
The doctor is not a good example, considering he's a single character that has the power to destroy all of civilization without breaking a sweat.
It can make perfect sense to you, but since if a 13th level PC dies there's another one magically around the corner, who apparently never did anything that would be major enough to come to the attention of the other PCs (despite them being the 4 most powerful people in the world per your viewpoint), yet he's equally as powerful, that doesn't pass the sniff test. Add onto that the fact that if you total up the BBEGs and their cohorts that the PCs steamroll, and you get that somehow anyone over 5th level is evil except for the PCs. Think about that.
