So I'm playing a dwarven rogue 4/wizard 1/Unseen Seer 2/Shadowdancer 1 in a friends city based campaign. The DM is getting... peturbed by my judicious use of Hide in Plain Sight in order to secure a sneak attack. I'd like to find some other methods achieve sneak attacks, seeing as it's my best offensive move, but I'm having trouble.
What other methods besides going to through the tedious process of flanking an opponent are there?
stun them with a color spray.
pin them in a grapple.
hide and snipe them from 30'.
turn invisible.
successfully feint.
Gang up and let the other party members flank?
Apparently, according to half the GMs in another thread, get yourself swallowed whole.
Kick them in the balls.
If they do not have any, polymorph them into a form that does, then kick them in the balls.
That will allow you sneak attacks :D
Nail them as they go over difficult terrain. Grease spell helps in this regard.
Apparently, according to half the GMs in another thread, get yourself swallowed whole.
I for one was just stating the rules don't prevent it, but that RAI that tactic would not work. I hope the others were doing the same. If they want rogues to get sneak attack like that then it is up to them.
So I'm playing a dwarven rogue 4/wizard 1/Unseen Seer 2/Shadowdancer 1 in a friends city based campaign. The DM is getting... peturbed by my judicious use of Hide in Plain Sight in order to secure a sneak attack. I'd like to find some other methods achieve sneak attacks, seeing as it's my best offensive move, but I'm having trouble.What other methods besides going to through the tedious process of flanking an opponent are there?
All he has to do is increase the lighting so there are no shadowy areas.
A wand of greater invisibility is good for drawn out combats, a ring of invisibility is good if you just like to open up with a sneak.
What other methods besides going to through the tedious process of flanking an opponent are there?
Just out of curiosity, why is flanking such a tedious process? In close range encounters, it usually doesn't take more than a round to get into a flanking position on an opponent.
Just out of curiosity, why is flanking such a tedious process? In close range encounters, it usually doesn't take more than a round to get into a flanking position on an opponent.
What other methods besides going to through the tedious process of flanking an opponent are there?
I call it tedious because it often times requires me to convince another player to assist me; every warrior type likes to challenge enemies, and refuse help in the slaying of said mook. In addition, the enemy will usually do whatever they can to negate the flank, i.e. move away. My character only has a 20ft movement, so I often can't keep without spending actions spellcasting. And finally, I just hate having to rely on someone else just to use one of my class features. It just bothers me.
I call it tedious because it often times requires me to convince another player to assist me; every warrior type likes to challenge enemies, and refuse help in the slaying of said mook. In addition, the enemy will usually do whatever they can to negate the flank, i.e. move away. My character only has a 20ft movement, so I often can't keep without spending actions spellcasting. And finally, I just hate having to rely on someone else just to use one of my class features. It just bothers me.Just out of curiosity, why is flanking such a tedious process? In close range encounters, it usually doesn't take more than a round to get into a flanking position on an opponent.
What other methods besides going to through the tedious process of flanking an opponent are there?
Continue your shadowdancer progression to get your own personal flanking buddy in the form of the companion shadow.
...every warrior type likes to challenge enemies, and refuse help in the slaying of said mook.
The group has "me" type players. Such is the way to death, but that is off-topic. I would keep going in shadow dancer until you get the shadow as someone suggested.
So far we have:
stun them with a color spray.
pin them in a grapple.
hide and snipe them from 30'.
turn invisible.
successfully feint.
Flank them.
Go first.
Invisibility.
I saw you were a first level wizard. You could use vanish to become invisible or cast flare in an effort to blind them.
I call it tedious because it often times requires me to convince another player to assist me; every warrior type likes to challenge enemies, and refuse help in the slaying of said mook.
1. Find better team players. I get sick of players that never look to give their teammates an advantage. Too many parties are just a group of four to six individuals doing their own thing. A fighter and a rogue working together is sight to behold.
Just because your initiative comes up doesn't mean you have to go right then. Remember you can ready an action to take a five-foot step and attack or delay until the Big Dumb Fighter moves into a position where you can move and flank, despite his Big Dumb Arse.
To answer you question other than flanking, the nominees are:
Invisible Attacker
Stunned Defender
Defender Using Acrobatics (for balance)
Climbing Defender
Running Defender
Blinded Defender
Flat-footed Defender
Squeezing Defender
Cowering Defender
Pinned Defender
Helpless Defender
Feint
Most of these will require the help of an ally (or possibly the enemy). Feint require an investment in a feat (Impoved Feint) to be real useful. So, this is why the rogue goes for the backstab or hides in the shadows.
As for the GM getting perturbed, does he get perturbed by the Barbarian raging and doing hellacious damage? or the mage spamming the field of battle with fireballs? It's what rogues do, especially Shadowdancers.
...every warrior type likes to challenge enemies, and refuse help in the slaying of said mook.The group has "me" type players. Such is the way to death, but that is off-topic. I would keep going in shadow dancer until you get the shadow as someone suggested.
In defense of the other players, they aren't "me" players, they just have "me" characters this particular campaign; honor-bound paladins and tribal warriors and all that jazz. In other campaigns, things would be more... team-based.
In defense of the other players, they aren't "me" players, they just have "me" characters this particular campaign; honor-bound paladins and tribal warriors and all that jazz. In other campaigns, things would be more... team-based....every warrior type likes to challenge enemies, and refuse help in the slaying of said mook.The group has "me" type players. Such is the way to death, but that is off-topic. I would keep going in shadow dancer until you get the shadow as someone suggested.
You're a rogue type? that does sneak attacks? right?
who cares what the %^&* honor bounds paladins want. "Ha! tally hoe! take that!" staba-cadabra!Talk with your DM,, your character isn't working for you. If he keeps these NPCs metagaming (not all NPCs are going to move tactically like that) then either A) there has to be PCs cooperating with you or B) he lets you keep doing the hide in plain site manuever or C) lets you take all your rogue and shadow dancer levels and move them over into wizard.
How will the pally and the other warrior like it with no trap guy? hmmmmm?
Seriously, if both the DM and the players are giving you a hard time, it's time to talk.
Developer
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I should also point out that a good paladin is as much soldier as priest, and flanking definitely does not violate the code. A paladin who is refuses to flank is a tactical moron (which may be how the character is being played, to be fair, but it's not because he's a paladin that it's happening.)
Cavalier is the only class I can think of that would really want to go one-on-one and refuse help, and that's just one order.
Flanking isn't dishonorable, it's tactically sound. My paladin not only does it, but seeks these opportunities out. My paladin also has combat expertise and greater trips opponents, drawing an AoO from the rogue that is now flanking. Being smart is not unfair. It's smart.
Just my rant on that.
As long as you play "hide in plain sight" properly then your GM should have no problems with it:
When you're within 10ft of low-light conditions, you're treated as if you were in low-light conditions for the purpose of stealthing. This does not allow you to hide from someone that can see you in low-light conditions.
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Just because the pallies and other "honor bound" characters have to defeat enemies in single combat doesn't mean that you do. Just come up behind whatever they're attacking and "help them out". Honor doesn't mean much if you're dead.
To interfere in a one-to-one duel of honor is one of the fastest way to meet Pharasma, usually with your friend's help.
Heck, both your friend and his opponent (if he is also of the honorable type) might declare a temporary truce to get rid together of the pesky annoyance (ie, kill you) before resuming their much more important duel of honor.
I once played a Drow Rogue in a friend's game. I had a bunch of feats from older books such as Craven(Add your level to sneak attack damage) and Telling Blow(Add sneak attack damage to a critical hit). He said it was cool for about 10 levels when he got sick of it and killed me off. I rerolled and we went on our way. The next game we went up against a dragon which promptly killed us all. Apparently he had forgotten I was the only damage dealer in the group.
Anyway, my early level tricks were hiding like you did or casting Darkness. The way its worded now, you can see through it with dark vision which is sweet. If he lets you take feats from older books, check out Telling Blow from the Players Handbook 2.
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To interfere in a one-to-one duel of honor is one of the fastest way to meet Pharasma, usually with your friend's help.
Heck, both your friend and his opponent (if he is also of the honorable type) might declare a temporary truce to get rid together of the pesky annoyance (ie, kill you) before resuming their much more important duel of honor.
Possibly. But killing a friend is a pretty fast road for a pally to become a feat-less fighter. Or whatever it is people are calling fallen pallies now a days.
Possibly. But killing a friend is a pretty fast road for a pally to become a feat-less fighter. Or whatever it is people are calling fallen pallies now a days.To interfere in a one-to-one duel of honor is one of the fastest way to meet Pharasma, usually with your friend's help.
Heck, both your friend and his opponent (if he is also of the honorable type) might declare a temporary truce to get rid together of the pesky annoyance (ie, kill you) before resuming their much more important duel of honor.
That's why the rogue will burn in all layers of hell, for having made the paladin fall from grace. At least the atonement will be cheap. And one fool less plagues the face of Golarion.
Just because the pallies and other "honor bound" characters have to defeat enemies in single combat doesn't mean that you do. Just come up behind whatever they're attacking and "help them out". Honor doesn't mean much if you're dead.To interfere in a one-to-one duel of honor is one of the fastest way to meet Pharasma, usually with your friend's help.
Heck, both your friend and his opponent (if he is also of the honorable type) might declare a temporary truce to get rid together of the pesky annoyance (ie, kill you) before resuming their much more important duel of honor.
If you are fighting the bad guys I doubt it is a duel of honor. A duel of honor requires an agreement on both sides. I am sure the bad guys have no issues flanking the paladin, and a paladin that attacked me for trying to help better sleep with one eye open.
yes, duels of honor and all, but every single combat can't be a duel of honor, if that keeps happening I would sit back and LET the pally get killed. Do other stuff like picking the chest, or use improved steal and pick peoples pockets during combat. If someone complains about it, then you can say, well do you want to let me fight too?
I should mention that the DM doesn't have a problem with me scoring multiple sneak attacks. He doesn't like the fact that the enemies can't attack me. My stealth checks are often in the mid 30's, and unless I low roll, I usually beat everyone's perception checks. It doesn't help that he's getting annoyed that I work my way around the concealment issue; if the area we are in is well lit, I would normally be out of luck. But since my character is also a wizard, I usually have multiple darkness spells memorized and in scroll form. In addition, I have so far managed to foil his work-arounds; we he through something with tremersense our way, i simply started flying.
He has warned me that he isn't going to get involved in an escalating war with me; I personally don't think my character should intentionally not use one of his most potent abilities when it would be the best decision tactically. So rather then deal with the heated glares that will inevitably come my way, I'm looking for alternatives methods of sneak attacking.
I should mention that the DM doesn't have a problem with me scoring multiple sneak attacks. He doesn't like the fact that the enemies can't attack me. My stealth checks are often in the mid 30's, and unless I low roll, I usually beat everyone's perception checks. It doesn't help that he's getting annoyed that I work my way around the concealment issue; if the area we are in is well lit, I would normally be out of luck. But since my character is also a wizard, I usually have multiple darkness spells memorized and in scroll form. In addition, I have so far managed to foil his work-arounds; we he through something with tremersense our way, i simply started flying.
He has warned me that he isn't going to get involved in an escalating war with me; I personally don't think my character should intentionally not use one of his most potent abilities when it would be the best decision tactically. So rather then deal with the heated glares that will inevitably come my way, I'm looking for alternatives methods of sneak attacking.
Ranged? 30 feet? you can always sneak attack with a dwarven thrower? lol
I should mention that the DM doesn't have a problem with me scoring multiple sneak attacks. He doesn't like the fact that the enemies can't attack me. My stealth checks are often in the mid 30's, and unless I low roll, I usually beat everyone's perception checks. It doesn't help that he's getting annoyed that I work my way around the concealment issue; if the area we are in is well lit, I would normally be out of luck. But since my character is also a wizard, I usually have multiple darkness spells memorized and in scroll form. In addition, I have so far managed to foil his work-arounds; we he through something with tremersense our way, i simply started flying.
He has warned me that he isn't going to get involved in an escalating war with me; I personally don't think my character should intentionally not use one of his most potent abilities when it would be the best decision tactically. So rather then deal with the heated glares that will inevitably come my way, I'm looking for alternatives methods of sneak attacking.
He could use dispel magic, and/or pump perception. Tremorsense does not trump stealth. You still have a 50% miss chance since it only pinpoints the square. I would not change up. It will make him a better DM if the can avoid it. He will thank you for it later. :)
I was going to say Ring of Blinking and get Ghost Touched on your weapon...but I see Pathfinder closed that route.
Obscuring mist is a good way to get sneaky, if you get blind fight even better. The bluring weapon enhancement from 3.5 magic item comp. can give a few sneaks a day. Blur gives concealment/miss chance. I don't know if that qualify's. Improved darkness/blind fighting.
Why is this a problem? Your GM can just have the monsters ready attacks against you.
Why is this a problem? Your GM can just have the monsters ready attacks against you.
I think the player stays out of attack range. I have also realized that his attack bonus is probably not all that high considering the class combination he chose so I would ignore him until I took out the other party members first. Staying out of the area of darkness is also an option.
Nah, he'd cast it on his weapon - so the darkness would travel with him.
Considering that a single "everburning torch" (110gp) or the ioun torch (50gp?) will beat the darkness spell, I don't really understand where the trouble comes from. Unless the PC is heightening to a level 3 spell.
Nah, he'd cast it on his weapon - so the darkness would travel with him.
Considering that a single "everburning torch" (110gp) or the lighted iounstone (50gp?) will beat the darkness spell, I don't really understand where the trouble comes from. Unless the PC is heightening to a level 3 spell.
I do usually attach the spell to a weapon. The DM has dispelled in the past, but its not very effective. At any given time, I have the spell memorized at least twice, and I keep (literally) a dozen scrolls on me at one time; enemy sorcerers have wasted all of their 3rd level spells trying to nerf my Hide in Plain Sight.
My atack bonus isn't all that bad; a 22 strength (base 18 + a +4 belt) and a +2 Battle axe nets me a +12 to hit.
Nah, he'd cast it on his weapon - so the darkness would travel with him.
Considering that a single "everburning torch" (110gp) or the ioun torch (50gp?) will beat the darkness spell, I don't really understand where the trouble comes from. Unless the PC is heightening to a level 3 spell.
I never knew continual flame was that high of a level. Maybe the DM does not know light and darkness spells counter each other.
Probably GM not aware, yes. The continual flame won't so much counter the darkness, as that it will simply keep on shining as if there was no darkness around it. In theory you could have a widened continual flame - which would cover a pretty big ground.
Probably GM not aware, yes. The continual flame won't so much counter the darkness, as that it will simply keep on shining as if there was no darkness around it. In theory you could have a widened continual flame - which would cover a pretty big ground.
A Blur spell grants concealment so all your attacks are sneaks
Probably GM not aware, yes. The continual flame won't so much counter the darkness, as that it will simply keep on shining as if there was no darkness around it. In theory you could have a widened continual flame - which would cover a pretty big ground.A Blur spell grants concealment so all your attacks are sneaks
20% concealment does not deny dex. It does allow you to make stealth checks though so that you can hide.
Obscuring mist is a good way to get sneaky
Actually, this is one of my suggestions for preventing a rogue's sneak attack. Obscuring mist provides 20% concealment. Rogues can't sneak attack a creature with concealment.