Alignment Channel
Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
"Oh great and powerful [insert god's name here] please send some of your divine energy to help me smite these beasts that have vexed me with tribulation! Also, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, please just smite the chaotic ones."
This feat infers the knowledge that player characters, with the channel energy ability, have at least a rudimentary knowledge that creatures are aligned to specific dispositions of law, chaos, good, and evil. Channeling energy against evil creatures I get. "Oh god please smite the evil creatures here (in my 30 foot radius)." But once you start talking about smiting chaotic or lawful creatures, in my mind anyway, it conveys a realistic knowledge that people might possibly fall somewhere on a nine squared alignment system.
Am I wrong?
No, your not. Much as people would like to think and much as they love to house rule otherwise, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are tangible, detectable, smiteable forces in the game.
With the caveat that the creature has to have
A) the [Evil]/[Good]/[Lawful]/[Chaotic] subtype.
B) an Aura special feature.
C) more than 5HD and an alignment other than neutral.
If any of A, B or C is true, you can detect it. If none of them are true, you have no idea.
This feat infers the knowledge that player characters, with the channel energy ability, have at least a rudimentary knowledge that creatures are aligned to specific dispositions of law, chaos, good, and evil. Channeling energy against evil creatures I get. "Oh god please smite the evil creatures here (in my 30 foot radius)." But once you start talking about smiting chaotic or lawful creatures, in my mind anyway, it conveys a realistic knowledge that people might possibly fall somewhere on a nine squared alignment system.
Am I wrong?
They have knowledge that there are specific dispositions, but this does not mean that they know what a particular creature's disposition is (unless they succeed on a Knowledge check, or you have some other means of knowing, such as what mdt outlines).
So, you can choose to affect Evil outsiders with your Alignment Channel ability, but you can figure for yourself what that does if they're all Chaotic Neutral.
In which case I'd take the feat multiple times (as it says you can) and choose to channel energy against chaos. Besides the fact, that just the knowledge of those four dispositions, and as Alexander points out, the idea that there is an absence of them, means that a lot of characters would have a real working knowledge of a nine squared alignment grid. That's the part that really gets me about this, in conjunction with the Detect Evil/Chaos/Good/Law spells.
It honestly makes me think of a PC walking into a tavern and asking some cute young barmaid, "What's your alignment baby?"
If they are real and tangible forces in the game, and they can be manipulated with magic, then it seems apparent to me that the people who use that magic-- at least-- are aware of them. Every religion in the game is going to have teachings about the four alignment forces. It's not a metagame concept.
Just like Wizards with detect magic can tell the difference between a +1 sword and a +2 sword.
That's the part that really gets me about this, in conjunction with the Detect Evil/Chaos/Good/Law spells.Well, yes. It should be assumed that, especially if you're able to cast such spells, you have at least been aware that such dispositions do exist. I would suggest that such knowledge would be a very easy knowledge or profession check. Or just assumed to be basic knowledge that people know unless they have exceptionally low intelligence (under 8).
It honestly makes me think of a PC walking into a tavern and asking some cute young barmaid, "What's your alignment baby?"Please don't tell me this thread was a lead-up to you defending a cheesy pick-up line from a game.
Ha! No, never used it. I've been exclusively a GM for the past few years. At this point though, I wouldn't be opposed to a player doing it. If many player characters have knowledge of an alignment system, what would stop their companions from picking up a similar knowledge through conversation and experience? If, then, they have a knowledge of a rigid existence of alignments, why wouldn't that particular aspect of life be a part of casual conversation now and again?
Barmaids don´t usually have alignment SUBTYPES. Those are a quality of the creature type. Alignment per-se isn´t.
Demons having Chaotic Sub-Type, and thus being susceptible to certain effects, IS something you should be able to know from an appropriate Knowledge check for their generic creature type. The alignment of a specific creature may be open to change (less so with ´alignment paragons´ like Angels/Demons/Proteans/etc, who would tend to become a new creature if their personal alignment changd), but any character should be able to say ´how does this creature type act in generally from the knowledge we have (which may not be accurate re: a specific creature, but nobody forces you to always keep an open mind), and how is it aligned re: hell/abyss/heaven/etc. In-Game, those are actually ´real world´ planar destinations which are involved in planar alliances. Saying characters´s can´t know about it is saying they simply can´t process actual reality.
SO every semi-knowledgeable person should know about the 9 axis alignment system, as a system dividing the alliances of the cosmos, and which have representative cosmically powerful beings. But unless you´re a Cleric gaining your powers from a Cosmic Entity (Diety), Aligment just doesn´t matter very much, if it all... Unless Demons, Devils, and such are mixing it up in your neck of the woods. A few Classes like Barbarian, Monk have Alignment restrictions, but none of that really really rises to the level of Alignment SUBTYPES which means Cosmic Exemplars of each Alignment, Barbarians aren´t necessarily thought of having any affinity with Demons, nor Monks with Devils, though specific groups of Barbarians or Monks may very well fit into those alliances.
There´s no reason to be prejudiced to a Good/Evil Axis vs. Law/Chaos.
Clerics of a LN God would be prime cases to take this Feat...
If it doesn´t make sense for somebody´s schtick they wouldn´t take it.
Barmaids don´t usually have alignment SUBTYPES. Those are a quality of the creature type. Alignment per-se isn´t.
And you see, there is exactly the greatness of this little tidbit. Knowing that barmaids don't have hit dice or class levels, and therefore don't have alignment subtypes, is entirely metagame knowledge. In my estimation barmaids are some of the most worldly (meaning they have a great knowledge of things going on in the world, especially the Pathfinder world because adventurers are probably traipsing through their domain all the time) people anywhere. So they would more than likely have picked up some knowledge of the nine axis alignment system as well. She might not have any inclination of people being set up in such grids, but she would at least understand, on some level, the various dispositions of people, and perhaps even categorize them herself into those nine grids based on routine behavior. So asking the barmaid, "what's your alignment baby?" Is a cheesy pick up line, along the lines of "Did it hurt? ... When you fell out of heaven?" But that in no way takes away its legitimacy as a real conversation starter in this setting.
Ironically, we cut Alignment out of our games for about 2 years... then we switched to Pathfinder and it seems half the system is based around the concept...
/sigh...
Barmaids don´t usually have alignment SUBTYPES. Those are a quality of the creature type. Alignment per-se isn´t.And you see, there is exactly the greatness of this little tidbit. Knowing that barmaids don't have hit dice or class levels, and therefore don't have alignment subtypes, is entirely metagame knowledge.
Barmaids do have hit dice and class levels. Or at least, they should.
We are talking about creature subtypes. She's probably got one of those too. Human or Elf or Dwarf are subtypes of humanoid. Very few humanoids have an alignment subtype. Alignment subtypes are for outsiders who are physical manifestations of those alignments. So a knowledge (planes) check to determine that the creature before you is a demon will also let you know that those are chaotic evil outsiders and can be smote by the forces of law and good.
Certainly if you are just guessing that an orc is evil based on racial stereotypes, well, odds are you'll be correct. But don't be surprised if it doesn't always work and you find a few LN or CN orcs about.
Ironically, we cut Alignment out of our games for about 2 years... then we switched to Pathfinder and it seems half the system is based around the concept...
There doesn't seem to be any more alignment based stuff in Pathfinder than in standard 3.X d20. All of the tricks to remove alignment from the game are possible just as easy with Pathfinder. Is there someplace in particular you see alignment affecting things where it didn't before?
Barmaids don´t usually have alignment SUBTYPES. Those are a quality of the creature type. Alignment per-se isn´t.And you see, there is exactly the greatness of this little tidbit. Knowing that barmaids don't have hit dice or class levels, and therefore don't have alignment subtypes, is entirely metagame knowledge.Barmaids do have hit dice and class levels. Or at least, they should.
We are talking about creature subtypes. She's probably got one of those too. Human or Elf or Dwarf are subtypes of humanoid. Very few humanoids have an alignment subtype. Alignment subtypes are for outsiders who are physical manifestations of those alignments. So a knowledge (planes) check to determine that the creature before you is a demon will also let you know that those are chaotic evil outsiders and can be smote by the forces of law and good.
Certainly if you are just guessing that an orc is evil based on racial stereotypes, well, odds are you'll be correct. But don't be surprised if it doesn't always work and you find a few LN or CN orcs about.
I feel like people are missing my point here. I know the barmaid doesn't have an alignment subtype but again that is metagame knowledge. I said she didn't have hit dice or class levels because I don't frequently go about stating up every barmaid in every tavern my PCs are going to enter. You could, absolutely, but you'd probably spend more than half of your prep time stating up barmaids (depending on the type of campaign obviously). The point I'm trying to make, apparently not very well, is that the IDEA of a nine boxed alignment system based off of things like this feat, and the Detect [insert alignment subtype here] spells means that there would be a practical working knowledge of creatures being aligned within the world setting. This practical working knowledge, being taught by churches, being manipulated by clerics, and being discussed by adventurers would mean that that same knowledge would, in almost all certainty, not be specialized (at least not the existence of it). The manipulation of alignment for the purposes of subtype damage reduction, and divine energy smiting, would be specialized knowledge, of course. That doesn't mean though that discussions of law, chaos, good, evil, and their absence - neutral, would be nonexistent in commoners. Barmaids see adventurers all the time. Maybe they saw an adventuring party that just came in from defeating some archons, demons, or devils. They talk about how the cleric's well timed channeling of his/her god's divine energy to specifically smite the evil/chaotic etc. creatures really saved the day. So then she asks what that means... you see where I'm going hopefully. Because of the existence of tangible alignments (subtypes or not) people would have at least a simple knowledge of alignment, and therefore the use of alignment terms in everyday conversation is entirely plausible.
Once you make that realization, which I hope most people would agree with, it is also plausible that people might start to look at other people (npc's pc's etc.), especially people they see often, and perhaps start to categorize them themselves into simple alignment grids in their head. This, of course, doesn't mean that they're right, but a barmaid who sees John the drunk, constantly drinking too much, being mean to his wife and kids, and only ever being concerned with his own happiness, might, possibly, think that guy is so chaotic, and also evil. The terminology enters the game world through things like this feat, and the detect spells. Once it's there you can't remove it, and commoners would absolutely have a practical knowledge, however simple, of it through societal interaction.
Ironically, we cut Alignment out of our games for about 2 years... then we switched to Pathfinder and it seems half the system is based around the concept...
/sigh...
Just wanted to point you here. Worth a read at least.
Barmaids also have mass and thus generate a small gravitational pull, which is why you find yourself attracted to them. But if you try using a geeky pickup line like that, you are probably just going to end up with an ale spilled on you.
Law/Chaos and Good/Evil are part of the underpinnings of creation. They are just as real as mass/electric charges/distance/etc. They are quantifiable, detectable, forces. The educated (those with KS:planes or KS:religion) know a lot of the ins and outs of how things are put together, and the cosmic battles between them. The barmaid (who probably has a good KS:local) might know that Bob the farmer is evil (he beats his family, cheats, and is a drunken lout) and Joe the merchant is lawful (he keeps his word, is trustworthy, etc). Everyone here is a level one commoner, so there are no auras; but people have alignments. She might recall the story some adventurers told about fighting a devil. She probably understand that it was evil, but the distinction between acting evil, and being composed of the raw stuff of Evil (capital "E") is probably beyond her.
Just like if you were to sit in a bar and talk about how to calculate the volume of a beerstien with your friends, the waitress is just going to smile and ask if you want a refill. She knows it holds a pint, and that's enough for her. She doesn't care about the math or subtleties behind it, but if you keep yammering and hold down the table, you better tip well...
i done really see what the issue is. law chaos good and evil are tangible physical concepts. your character may not think lg them I'n the exact framework the game uses is all.
there's no reason why a universal wheel of the cosmos cannot have the idea that certain creatures fall into certain areas of that wheel is not a horrible concept I'n a universe of magic.
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I just want to say this. Why are barmaids so worldly, and adventurers so common, the elite array is supposed to represent 1/10 of people, the rest have 10-12s, and not everyone with an elite array becomes adventurers. lets say 1/10 of the people with elite arrays actually become adventurers (which is a stupid concept, no one becomes adventurers, they become explorers or treasure hunters etc. but even those are rare and far between, I think one of the greatest failings of fluff in most settings is the assumption that there are enough adventurers that adventuring is an acceptable and common career choice). so 1/10th of 1/10, now look at sandpoint, even in sandpoint there are 4 bars listed, most of those will have multiple barmaids. Your telling me that barmaids will encounter enough people who are going to talk about the fundamental essence of the cosmos to them.
Then look at the abilities, you have to select each one individually, now a cleric is supposed to know all spells on his list so ideally he knows that he can detect in beings that they are chaotic, and that they are evil, but not both at the same time (since it requires that they concentrate) then add to the fact that unless you're dealing with angels and demons then most of these spells aren't going to tell you jack. (remember that hit dice are a metagame concept, so you don't know looking at the king if he's a 1st level aristocrat of a 13th level aristocrat concealing his alignment with magic). So all a cleric knows is that there are forces of chaos, and evil, and good, and law in the universe and some of them can be detected in powerful creatures, but what's powerful in the game world, a first level king of a metropolis has considerable power and maybe a lot of magic at his immediate disposal, yet he won't detect jack on an alignment spell. So here's a question what's stopping them from thinking there are other fundamental forces in the universe such as apathy? You say there's no detect apathy spell, I say that it could be created the rules for creating spells exist, you say nothing would detect, for a lot of the time nothing is detected when you detect alignment, doesn't mean they don't exist. Yes NPCs and characters know that good and evil exist, no they don't know that every person fits into a convenient 9 grid axis because there are so many times that the spells don't work.
@Khuldar-- I'm in total agreement with you. I wasn't ever trying to say that the barmaid knew the ins and outs of those beings in the cosmos that are an alignment. I meant only to engender the idea that alignment discussions, even alignment discussions that discuss combinations of chaotic and evil were not beyond the scope of a level one commoner. As you say, she's got some ideas about evil and lawful, so a discussion about someone's evilness, or lawfulness, or chaoticness as real tangible things seems very plausible.
Yes NPCs and characters know that good and evil exist, no they don't know that every person fits into a convenient 9 grid axis because there are so many times that the spells don't work.
I'm sorry if you felt like I was saying every person in Golarion walks around with a convenient "alignment grid filing system" in their head, and automatically places everyone they see into one of those nine boxes. I wasn't. What I was saying is, as reiterated above in this post, that a discussion of alignment, including the chaoticness, evilness, lawfulness, goodness, and, in their absence, neutralness, of people and or creatures is part and parcel of the setting.
If it's tangible people will talk about it. Heck, clerics might even try to "win souls" for their god by discussing the various planes and what it's like there, and asking people which plane they want to end up on when they die. (Much like religious men and ladies of today will discuss eternity with people.) Also the only reason I made the reference to barmaids seeing adventurers all the time is because it's an old gaming cliche. Obviously, were Golarion a real place, there would be far fewer adventurers than "normal" people. Of course Golarion is not a normal place, and almost every campaign that includes overland travel is going to have adventurers stopping in an inn or tavern at some point. To me, that speaks to a pretty ridiculous adventurer to barmaid ratio per capita. (That's tongue in cheek, for those that don't pick up on subtlety.)
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I feel like people are missing my point here. I know the barmaid doesn't have an alignment subtype but again that is metagame knowledge. I said she didn't have hit dice or class levels because I don't frequently go about stating up every barmaid in every tavern my PCs are going to enter. You could, absolutely, but you'd probably spend more than half of your prep time stating up barmaids (depending on the type of campaign obviously). The point I'm trying to make, apparently not very well, is that the IDEA of a nine boxed alignment system based off of things like this feat, and the Detect [insert alignment subtype here] spells means that there would be a practical working knowledge of creatures being aligned within the world setting. This practical working knowledge, being taught by churches, being manipulated by clerics, and being discussed by...
Consider things like the negative view of left handedness in our world till recent times and its links to in the vocabulary with "underhand".
The common knowledge that devil and demons are evil.And "he is a saint", "he is very contentious" and so on.
We are already using something like a "alignment system" to categorize people. Like in our game worlds it id not black/white on every axis (purple to yellow for chaos to law?). You go from some individual that are seen as extremely evil (Hitler, Charles Manson) to very good (Ghandi, San Francesco) but most people have all the shades in between.
Similarly, even if to a lesser extent, we have people that we can define as lawful or chaotic.
The bank director that kept his office records with him for 5 years while in a prison camp in Africa so that nothing was lost was a perfect example of a LN alignment.
The guy that can't gat to a meeting at the right time even if he was forced at gunpoint, had to search through 10 folders to fiind the right document and so on is Chaotic.
So even in real life we use a "alignment grid" even if we use other terms "He is reliable/unreliable", simply there are so much degrees of reliability, goodness, unreliability and wickedness that is hard to define them,. And it will be the same thing in Golarion, with the difference that there you can "detect" people tendencies if you have the right spell and the right conditions.
To me, that speaks to a pretty ridiculous adventurer to barmaid ratio per capita.
Not really. Think of the Real World again. There are "trucker bars", "bikers bar", "X squad supporters bars", "cop bars" and so on. Most people is aware if he is in the "wrong" kind of bar.
"Adventurers", even of different alignment, share some common trait. Generally they run around with way more riches, in easily expendable form, than the most of the people in their world, they have a small arsenal on themselves and are a bit too free in using it, and so on.
So most local bartenders will be fairly unhappy to host a bunch of them and they will tend to congregate in they specific subset of bars, with groupies willing to listen to their tales and would be adventures tring to get pointers from them.
Try picturing this scene: you go to your typical village tavern of your home town after your first adventure. You start boasting of the monsters you have killed and the gold you have gained.
Whoa re the other guys in the tavern?
Grandpa John that has come for a pint, a lot of adult people that remember when you were in a diaper and a lot of farmers that work a year to get the same gold you have got in 3 days.
Grandpa will come to your table and say "Boy, it will not last, buy a farm and do an honest work", the guys that have know you from the day you were a infant will give you suggestions about doing something serious and the other people will give you sour looks and mutter behind your back. Your mood will sour very fast.
After a time you will find your tavern (probably in a larger city) where most of the patrons are adventurers or would be adventurers.
The barmaid in that tavern will see a very high number of adventurers through the years, but most barmaid will see an adventure once every few years.
I feel like people are missing my point here. I know the barmaid doesn't have an alignment subtype but again that is metagame knowledge. I said she didn't have hit dice or class levels because I don't frequently go about stating up every barmaid in every tavern my PCs are going to enter. You could, absolutely, but you'd probably spend more than half of your prep time stating up barmaids (depending on the type of campaign obviously). The point I'm trying to make, apparently not very well, is that the IDEA of a nine boxed alignment system based off of things like this feat, and the Detect [insert alignment subtype here] spells means that there would be a practical working knowledge of creatures being aligned within the world setting.
Who needs to stat up the barmaid ahead of time? If you need to you make up the stats on the fly. AC 12 hp 8 melee +2 bottle (1d3) Fort +1 Ref +2 Will +3. Done.
Yes, alignment is something that PC's will know something about in game. A paladin is going to know that he can smite demons and devils all day, but that it only sometimes works on humans or elves or dwarves when they are particularly evil. And he's going to assume the barmaid isn't particularly evil if he hasn't witnessed her poisoning people's drinks or strangling patrons in their sleep.
@Diego -- Overall, I agree with a lot of what you said. However, did you miss my little part in parentheses at the end?
@deinol -- I laughed out loud at this:
And he's going to assume the barmaid isn't particularly evil if he hasn't witnessed her poisoning people's drinks or strangling patrons in their sleep.
@deinol -- I laughed out loud at this:And he's going to assume the barmaid isn't particularly evil if he hasn't witnessed her poisoning people's drinks or strangling patrons in their sleep.
Doesn't work for inns in a town. But every once in a while throw in the evil roadside inn. The one that's between towns along the road through the dark forest. The one that wasn't there the night before. Whose lone barmaid is really a hag/succubus/witch/serial killer. Who gives the party generous helpings of wine. And then visits them one by one in the dead of night.
@deinol -- I laughed out loud at this:Doesn't work for inns in a town. But every once in a while throw in the evil roadside inn. The one that's between towns along the road through the dark forest. The one that wasn't there the night before. Whose lone barmaid is really a hag/succubus/witch/serial killer. Who gives the party generous helpings of wine. And then visits them one by one in the dead of night.And he's going to assume the barmaid isn't particularly evil if he hasn't witnessed her poisoning people's drinks or strangling patrons in their sleep.
Laughed out loud again. Good stuff.
To me this is yet another non-issue. In general, players peruse the monster books, and in general, then tend to metagame to some extent, as to the supposed alignment of some creature they come upon whose entry they have read. Anybody with time in the game know this.
But this doesn't mean the players know the actual alignment of an individual creature they are encountering. Countless times over decades of playing, my players have stopped to ponder the alignment of what they had come up against, having learned and knowing well that exceptions were everywhere.
Often, taking a chance worked out fine, and the spell or ability used worked against the foe as intended. Fairly frequently, however, it did not. Nobody flipped - they just took it on faith that there was a reason behind this, and tried some other tact.
The mentioned feat is the same sort of situation. Savvy players ought to know that exceptions abound and that some amount of trial and error is expected. Good GMs know how to get players to "take the bait" to increase challenge.
Maybe the thing you're attacking has been reformed. Maybe it isn't the thing it looks like at all, but is a shapeshifter of some kind. Maybe it has a curse on it. Maybe it has some item disguising its alignment and has endless ranks in Bluff.
Know that people have alignments is like knowing that people fit into a Myers Briggs scale. Lots of people know what they are, or have some vague idea. Trained people know how to use them to their advantage. All magic does in pathfinder is allow people to do an accurate test (or hurt people of certain personality types.)
Now I'm thinking about spells like protection from extrovert, and it amuses me.
Laughed out loud again. Good stuff.
To be fair, I think I stole the idea from Stardust. Or Psycho.
Know that people have alignments is like knowing that people fit into a Myers Briggs scale. Lots of people know what they are, or have some vague idea. Trained people know how to use them to their advantage. All magic does in pathfinder is allow people to do an accurate test (or hurt people of certain personality types.)
Now I'm thinking about spells like protection from extrovert, and it amuses me.
"ENFP looking for executive assistant to help run business. Applicants must submit to a Detection screening."
Paladin of Lassitude gains Smite Type-A personality.
But once you start talking about smiting chaotic or lawful creatures, in my mind anyway, it conveys a realistic knowledge that people might possibly fall somewhere on a nine squared alignment system.
Well, proteans are creatures of pure chaos. Demons are evil conflated with chaos.
For them, concepts like good, evil, chaos and law are not only real, but part of their very being, the way flesh is for natural creatures.
People in a Pathfinder game world do know that the forces of order and chaos, as well as good and evil, are somewhat tangible in the world. Well, some do. Those who have specific knowledge of the planes, religion and magic in general.
But once you start talking about smiting chaotic or lawful creatures, in my mind anyway, it conveys a realistic knowledge that people might possibly fall somewhere on a nine squared alignment system.Well, proteans are creatures of pure chaos. Demons are evil conflated with chaos.
For them, concepts like good, evil, chaos and law are not only real, but part of their very being, the way flesh is for natural creatures.
People in a Pathfinder game world do know that the forces of order and chaos, as well as good and evil, are somewhat tangible in the world. Well, some do. Those who have specific knowledge of the planes, religion and magic in general.
Those with the skills know it's true, and have tangible proof.
That doesn't mean those without the skills don't believe it and understand the concept. Every church is going to be preaching Evil/Good/Chaos/Law, and all their followers are going to believe in those concepts.
Heck, the real world church folks believe completely in good vs evil. There's no reason why NPCs wouldn't as well in a PF world.
Those with the skills know it's true, and have tangible proof.
That doesn't mean those without the skills don't believe it and understand the concept. Every church is going to be preaching Evil/Good/Chaos/Law, and all their followers are going to believe in those concepts.
Heck, the real world church folks believe completely in good vs evil. There's no reason why NPCs wouldn't as well in a PF world.
That's what I've been saying.
Yeah, I've always figured it was there in the background culturally. Sort of like astrology, as mendedwall suggests. Ever played planescape? Day to day life in the planes would be completely untenable if you didn't call a spade a spade with regards to alignment.
Is this a problem? I would imagine that if you hate alignment as a rule, this particular RP issue would actually be pretty minor compared to the overt systemic alignment requirements that Pathfinder has.
Ironically, we cut Alignment out of our games for about 2 years... then we switched to Pathfinder and it seems half the system is based around the concept...There doesn't seem to be any more alignment based stuff in Pathfinder than in standard 3.X d20. All of the tricks to remove alignment from the game are possible just as easy with Pathfinder. Is there someplace in particular you see alignment affecting things where it didn't before?
I'm coming over straight from 2E, and there's a lot more dealing with subtypes and spells and weapons and such that seem to want to you to play that way...
Also we're new to the system, so unlike our HEAVILY rewritten 2E rules, we're trying out Pathfinder RAW before we start making changes ;)
Well, don't forget that Chaos and Law are game term... The way people talk about themselves and the others vary from their point of view, someone chaotic will not call himself chaotic, more something like "I'm in the free spirit camp and opposed to those chums with their broom in the @&& who thinkn they can tell me what I can or can't do ! Like those <insert name of lawful deity> followers... Have I told you about how <insert name of chaotic deity> is much more funny ? You know that you don't have to stick to those annoying ceremony at fixed hour ? And the feast in his heaven ? Oh those feast !!! You can drink all you want and no hangover !!! And I have to say the priest is so friendly... You really should consider giving a go to <name of chaotic deity>"
Same with the Evil ones who will talk about "How you can be more rich/powerful without effort... Yep, you have to think of you, when was the last time you did something for yourself ? And helping the poor is something but, think of it, if the situation was reversed are you sure he would do something for you ? Na, you have to be realistic, you have to think of youreself because no one else will do this for you, in this world only the strong survive, you want to survive don't you ? Remember that my patron <insert name of evil deity or demon> give huge rewards to those who serve him, and you don't have to lose things in servings him, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose !!! And when you're dead, if you have served him good then it'll be a lot of women/men/goat (your pick) to serve you, the most delicious plate and so and so... All this without having to give to other the little richess you've got, all this by treating yourself like you ought to... Well, you should consider it anyway... Just try it a little... Remember, nothing to lose..."
In the game I really don't think that Evil call themselves that... Remember that the rules are written from a "Good" point of view...
Even in real life debat on what is good and evil happen... If Anarchism is better than a Republic... Chao/Law Evil/Good debate surely exist in PF... ;)
Alignment Channel
Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
"Oh great and powerful [insert god's name here] please send some of your divine energy to help me smite these beasts that have vexed me with tribulation! Also, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, please just smite the chaotic ones."
This feat infers the knowledge that player characters, with the channel energy ability, have at least a rudimentary knowledge that creatures are aligned to specific dispositions of law, chaos, good, and evil. Channeling energy against evil creatures I get. "Oh god please smite the evil creatures here (in my 30 foot radius)." But once you start talking about smiting chaotic or lawful creatures, in my mind anyway, it conveys a realistic knowledge that people might possibly fall somewhere on a nine squared alignment system.
Am I wrong?
I'm not sure. I know that in 2nd edition is specifically mentioned that everyone knew their alignment, but that it was a hideously rude thing to ask somebody elses. If you play with alignment, I think it's probably safe to say that most people would know theirs.
I'm not sure. I know that in 2nd edition is specifically mentioned that everyone knew their alignment, but that it was a hideously rude thing to ask somebody elses. If you play with alignment, I think it's probably safe to say that most people would know theirs.
Or at least be able to identify the general gist of it if the subject came up. I've played with this notion as an abstract (of in-game appreciation of the alignment axises) but never thought to apply it to NPCs in this fashion. Now I'm imagining a barmaid bringing my adventurers another round to fuel their strategy discussion about how best to fight against the Established Order and their extraplanar allies, where the PCs are hung up on the Good/Evil axis and are complaining about how Holy Word only deals with the evil outsiders, and the barmaid asks "Well, aren't they all *Lawful*?"
98% of my Service NPCs are entirely normal for their role, but I like throwing my players curveballs sometimes, and having them discover that the guy they thought was just a simple stable lad has been a lay minister (read: lvl 6 Expert: Knowledge (Religion)) all this time and they've just never been to church on Sunday, or that the Barmaid is working to cover her library access fees at the city Mage Guild because she wants to be a Wizard some day. A smattering of NPCs like this seem to me (based on my players' reactions) to make a game world feel more real and dynamic, especially if the PCs end up going to church or helping the barmaid become a Wizard...
I'm not sure. I know that in 2nd edition is specifically mentioned that everyone knew their alignment, but that it was a hideously rude thing to ask somebody elses. If you play with alignment, I think it's probably safe to say that most people would know theirs.Or at least be able to identify the general gist of it if the subject came up. I've played with this notion as an abstract (of in-game appreciation of the alignment axises) but never thought to apply it to NPCs in this fashion. Now I'm imagining a barmaid bringing my adventurers another round to fuel their strategy discussion about how best to fight against the Established Order and their extraplanar allies, where the PCs are hung up on the Good/Evil axis and are complaining about how Holy Word only deals with the evil outsiders, and the barmaid asks "Well, aren't they all *Lawful*?"
98% of my Service NPCs are entirely normal for their role, but I like throwing my players curveballs sometimes, and having them discover that the guy they thought was just a simple stable lad has been a lay minister (read: lvl 6 Expert: Knowledge (Religion)) all this time and they've just never been to church on Sunday, or that the Barmaid is working to cover her library access fees at the city Mage Guild because she wants to be a Wizard some day. A smattering of NPCs like this seem to me (based on my players' reactions) to make a game world feel more real and dynamic, especially if the PCs end up going to church or helping the barmaid become a Wizard...
Great, great examples of how realism in a fantasy world can be conveyed by characters that don't fit into the [insert npc role here] mold. Like the guard who works for the local bar/tavern/inn, but has always wanted to be a singer, so, out of pure loyalty and friendship, the bar's owner occasionally lets the guard get on his stage and Perform Sing. Those dynamics take the cookie-cutter off of the game universe, and can really open the eyes of the players. Sometimes it can even help them to be more creative with their own character's hopes and dreams.
Doskius and Mended Wall;
Great, solid points, and good stuff. I'll probably use a few of those ideas if you don't mind, I love good NPC's. That's definitely my style of running.
Doskius and Mended Wall;
Great, solid points, and good stuff. I'll probably use a few of those ideas if you don't mind, I love good NPC's. That's definitely my style of running.
Please! Open forum and whatnot - feel free! ^_^
No, your not. Much as people would like to think and much as they love to house rule otherwise, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are tangible, detectable, smiteable forces in the game.
That's why I play neutral. No getting smote and I do what I want when I want.
Doing what you want, when you want it isn't neutral...
Neutral alignment isn't an excuse to do whatever.
I have no feelings on that one way or the other.
I have no feelings on that one way or the other.Doing what you want, when you want it isn't neutral...
Neutral alignment isn't an excuse to do whatever.
+1
Doing what you want, when you want it isn't neutral...
Neutral alignment isn't an excuse to do whatever.
Yes, I think you're right, for me this is the definition of the Neutral Evil... :)
I'm not sure. I know that in 2nd edition is specifically mentioned that everyone knew their alignment, but that it was a hideously rude thing to ask somebody elses. If you play with alignment, I think it's probably safe to say that most people would know theirs.
Oh I don't say they don't know their alignement, just that there's a lot of chance that they got more than one name... Evil guys won't call themselves Evil, but more Realistic (against Dreamer), the term Evil is a Good propaganda term... :p (And if Good and Evil are the term used in the book that's because the writer always took the Good point of view ;) )
Lol, back in 1st edition, everyone knew their alignment in character, because of the alignment languages that only the creatures with matching alignment could speak.