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Are you talking blank character sheets, or pre-generated companions?
In either case, as long as it is a legal build, there shouldn't be any problem.
I have seen many varieties of sheets, from homebrew to official to Hero Lab, to Erian7's Excel... All that I care about as a GM is whether the character on it is PFS legal.
Yep, as long as everything on the sheet is legal it can be the sheet from the Guide, a sheet from another company, one of the homemade ones floating around online, or even one you create yourself, so long as they are easy to read and can be checked for legality within just a minute or two of studying it. The primary thing that has to be an original and official Paizo/PFS sheets are your chronicle sheets.
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Realistically, you could bring your PC on a series of index cards.
This I disagree with. It's disrespectful, IMO, to the other players and the GM to not have a legible character sheet and draws a red flag as to the legality of the character. Without a clearly organized sheet, it can make an audit nearly impossible.
I recently had a player arrive to one of my events with his PC hand scratched on a sheet of notebook paper. And when I say scratched, it was. I could hardly read what was written and the organization of the material was terrible. The player claimed he didn't have time to transfer it yet this was the character's third session. This is the same player who has been playing with us for 1-1/2 years and still does not own a CRB. He always claims he has no money. Yet, on numerous occasions I have seen him purchase candy, soda, and TCG cards from the FLGS. The pfd is only $10. Come on now.
This might be a harsh response, but I told him that he could not play unless he transferred his info to a legible character sheet (I provided him one free of charge). BTW, his characters have always failed an audit in the past for various reasons.
While a specific character sheet is not required, a player should be required to have one and it should be written so it can be read by someone other than the writer. It may not look like my character sheet, but I'm sure I can follow its layout and understand the organization. To me, this is just being a responsible player. YMMV.
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This might be a harsh response, but I told him that he could not play unless he transferred his info to a legible character sheet (I provided him one free of charge). BTW, his characters have always failed an audit in the past for various reasons.
While a specific character sheet is not required, a player should be required to have one and it should be written so it can be read by someone other than the writer. It may not look like my character sheet, but I'm sure I can follow its layout and understand the organization. To me, this is just being a responsible player. YMMV.
To be fair, I would say roughly 10% of the character sheets I see pass an audit, so it's not out of the ordinary that he wouldn't. Because of this though, I do insist on auditing character sheets on occasion to make sure there's nothing out of the ordinary. Normally it's an initial audit, and then an audit if a red flag comes up at the table ("Your AC is 42? You're level 3!"). If a player's sheet isn't easy to read, I do not think it unfair to insist they transfer it to a readable sheet.
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To be fair, I would say roughly 10% of the character sheets I see pass an audit, so it's not out of the ordinary that he wouldn't.
I do not really count minor errors like an over/underspent skill point here or there, or an extra alchemist's fire, as failing an audit. Unless the player has a track record of cheating, I chalk those up as math errors, i.e. honest mistakes.
I am talking more about core errors like using 25 point buy for abilities, buying items outside your PA limits, selecting an animal companion/familiar not on your approved list, selecting a domain that is not part of your deity's portfolio, etc. These are some of the errors I have discovered when auditing sheets. In most of these circumstances, the player fails his/her bluff check to convince me it was an "oops" moment. When you've been playing OP for more than a year, and have multiple registered characters, I'm not buying it.
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Depends on how the index cards are set up. It might actually be easier to audit, if, say, everything relating to defense were on one card, etc.
Exactly - simple stats on one (Attributes, AC, Saves, Hits Points), Skills on another, Combat info on a third, Items on a 4th, Feats & Class Abilities on another, etc.
Presuming that the info is concise & the handwriting is clear, I'd be more than willing to accept this over some of the overly erased, coffee-stained, crumpled printouts from the Guide to OP that I've seen in the past.
But as has been said, YMMV.
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Why try to be different just to be different? There are a number of recognized character sheets that allow others to view, locate, audit, and understand your character. Whether it's a Paizo sheet, HeroLab, or something else, most are relatively the same in appearance and format. using a format like a stack of index cards can create the appearance of impropriety, even if there is none, and make auditing more difficult for the GM/organizer. I do not think it's much to ask for players to keep a legible, common-format character sheet.
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Why try to be different just to be different? There are a number of recognized character sheets that allow others to view, locate, audit, and understand your character. Whether it's a Paizo sheet, HeroLab, or something else, most are relatively the same in appearance and format. using a format like a stack of index cards can create the appearance of impropriety, even if there is none, and make auditing more difficult for the GM/organizer. I do not think it's much to ask for players to keep a legible, common-format character sheet.
I'd agree with Bob here. If you brought me a stack of index cards I'd be raising my eyebrows.
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Depends on how the index cards are set up. It might actually be easier to audit, if, say, everything relating to defense were on one card, etc.
One card for Feats, one card for class abilities ....
Let's see, the description says 'Undead Masses', let's grab the Favored Enemy Undead card and the Two-Weapon Fighting card. Oh! let's take the high Wisdom/Will save stat card too. ....
I don't think so.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Let's see, the description says 'Undead Masses', let's grab the Favored Enemy Undead card and the Two-Weapon Fighting card. Oh! let's take the high Wisdom/Will save stat card too. ....I don't think so.
Well, there's different organization, and then there's cheating.
Cheating is simple: if you cheat, you're banned forever from PFS OP. That's in the Guide.
And index cards don't make it any more possible or likely to cheat. People who do that will figure out a way.
Disclosure: while I haven't used index cards, I do use a sheet I designed after several years in a variety of campaigns. It's similar to the five-block format of published stat blocks. It shows the end bonuses, with the math available on a separate sheet. It wouldn't pass Bob's "common-format" muster, but it's very easy for me to find information in the middle of a fight.
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I don't think so.
I thought about this some more and it may appear that I don't practice what I preach here. I have a table card that has a picture and name of my character on one side and all the vital information on the other (my side). Attack information, saves, AC, and skill checks. Very quick reference. I also have a complete character sheet that PCGen creates for me with all the information.
So, I still would be highly suspicious of a player who came to the table with their PC information on separate 3x5 note cards. If I would take the time to look at it depends on the situation.
-Swiftbrook
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Let's see, the description says 'Undead Masses', let's grab the Favored Enemy Undead card and the Two-Weapon Fighting card. Oh! let's take the high Wisdom/Will save stat card too. ....I don't think so.Well, there's different organization, and then there's cheating.
Cheating is simple: if you cheat, you're banned forever from PFS OP. That's in the Guide.
And index cards don't make it any more possible or likely to cheat. People who do that will figure out a way.
Disclosure: while I haven't used index cards, I do use a sheet I designed after several years in a variety of campaigns. It's similar to the five-block format of published stat blocks. It shows the end bonuses, with the math available on a separate sheet. It wouldn't pass Bob's "common-format" muster, but it's very easy for me to find information in the middle of a fight.
Chris, I've seen the sheet you use and to me it would still be fairly easy to read and understand if I ever (not likely to happen) felt the need to audit your character.
It denotes a lack of respect to the rest of the players at the table to not have things organized I think that we all agree on. And the comment that "one size does not fit all" is for more than just panty hose; it does relate to character sheets.. again a point we all agree on. But index cards in a way just emotes a lack of organization -- despite having all the "like" information on one card the player is constantly flipping thru cards and if they are fumble-fingered the cards are dropping and getting out of order and creating a longer turn-time for the player and frustration for the GM and others at the table.
What happens if the player isn't sure if they have something? Instead of easily being able to glance at the players sheet and go yes it's right there see? The GM or another player can't help locate the information so again have to wait for the player to flip thru note cards and find the information.
Long-winded but my opinion is to have either a normal or a semblance of a normal character sheet -- and have it printed seriously, nothing worse that trying to read someone else's chicken scratch when you're not sure what the section is.
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I actually just started doing both... I have a herolab character sheet that I use as the main character sheet. I use that to create index cards with all of the relivent information for that card. I have seporite cards for skills, attacks (new lines for situational modifiers such as point blank shot, vital shot, rapid shot, many shot, power attack, favored enemy, favored terrain, ect. So that I know I have the correct attack modifiers and damage. These are things that a 'standard sheet' doesn't have, but I have forgotten to add on occation), defense, spells, HP/ability scores, items.
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It denotes a lack of respect to the rest of the players at the table to not have things organized I think that we all agree on. And the comment that "one size does not fit all" is for more than just panty hose; it does relate to character sheets.. again a point we all agree on. But index cards in a way just emotes a lack of organization -- despite having all the "like" information on one card the player is constantly flipping thru cards and if they are fumble-fingered the cards are dropping and getting out of order and creating a longer turn-time for the player and frustration for the GM and others at the table.
What happens if the player isn't sure if they have something? Instead of easily being able to glance at the players sheet and go yes it's right there see? The GM or another player can't help locate the information so again have to wait for the player to flip thru note cards and find the information.
Long-winded...
And, basically, coming from someplace a little far from where the non-gaming world views things, in general.
3x5 cards are, after all, the epitome of organization, just ask any public speaker or scientific researcher.
It isn't the 3x5 cards you are really objecting to, it is a lack of organization.
If I were up to the effort, and had a printer that could handle 3x5 cards, I could build a very customizable "Character Sheet" using 3x5 & 5x3 cards that would be laid out, in about the same amount of space as an 8.5x11 sheet of paper takes, that would be better organized and easier to read than the standard 8.5x11 character sheet.
As mentioned, "standard" character sheets generate a lot of waste space, or put things in potentially weird positions.
I am using Hero Lab to hold my PCs, now, since the spreadsheet I used to use has not been fully updated for many of the more recent releases, and I don't want to spend the time to do it myself.
On the other hand, Hero Lab does some very ...odd... things on their character sheet printout, and I have no idea how to personalize it to add the things I need/want it to show.
Oddities: Feats, Traits & Flaws are split between the two sides of the character sheet. It puts weapon attacks in some very strange orders. My 5th level tripping fighter has three weapons listed on the front page of his character sheet, which, fortunately includes his primary weapon, but doesn't include his trip check with that weapon, which is different than his CMB trip check listed. It also includes Arrows and Arrows, Blunt as melee weapons on the front page, but puts his Masterwork Composite Shortbow and his sap on the second page, even though they should, in my logic and preference, be on the front page, since they are more likely to be used for combat than an arrow as an improvised weapon... On the second page, it includes his Special Abilities, except that one is at the bottom of the first column of text, and the second is partway down the second column. Finding his initiative modifier is always fun, since it is in a totally different place than on any othe "official" character sheet I have ever used, buried almost at the end of the "RAW" combat stats, like Base Attack.
Now you are making me want to build a Character Sheet using the 4x6 cards I have, and the likelihood that my current printer can handle printing on them, to make a better organized character sheet than Hero Lab produces for me.
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Wow - I so didn't intend to generate this level of discussion, though I'm finding aspects of the discussion to be interesting.
But getting back to the gist of the OP's question, so far as I can tell there is no 'official' character sheet.
I offered the index cards as something of an extreme example, though it presumes that the player in question is organized enough to utilize them in a timely manner.
As others have brought up, I too prefer to have my PC's information organized in a way that I find useful.
Does it map directly to the sheet available in the Guide to Organized Play? Nope.
Is the information available when I need it? Yep.
Is it easy to locate the needed tidbit of information? Yep
Does my use of my preferred sheet cause the game to be slowed down? Nope.
I chalk that up as a win.
But, as always, YMMV.
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tle far from where the non-gaming world views things, in general.
3x5 cards are, after all, the epitome of organization, just ask any public speaker or scientific researcher.
It isn't the 3x5 cards you are really objecting to, it is a lack of organization....
I am using Hero Lab to hold my PCs, now, since the spreadsheet I used to use has not been fully updated for many of the more recent releases, and I don't want to spend the time to do it myself.
On the other hand, Hero Lab does some very ...odd... things on their character sheet printout, and I have noidea how to personalize it to add the things I need/want it to show.
I see what you're saying. I think at a Con I'd advise a player to at least have a character sheet a GM can audit, just in case. I wouldn't be opposed to a player using the cards at the table, though, if it's his favorite method, and if I were running a recurring group at an FLGS or at home, I definitely wouldn't have a problem.
(For the record, I agree with you on HeroLab's output, too. They do not have the capability to personalize printout sheets yet, but assure us that it's coming.)
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I know, normally, third party material isn't allowed in PFS. Is there any chance that third party character sheets for eidolons or animal companions would be allowed?
There is no specific 'requirement', however if it should be well organized and legible so a GM can review it in a hurry if he needs to.
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Personally, as long as the information for your character is presented in a clear manner that you can understand without taking too much time in combat, and I as the Gm can understand if I need to check it for any reason, I dont care what you have it written on, or in what format(paizo sheet, 3rd party, index cards, herolab, napkin, whatever).
There might be situations, such as at a con, when Id suggest one method(approved sheet) over another (napkin), but otherwise I think this is a situation best handled on a GM to GM, situation to situation basis.
Disclosure: while I haven't used index cards, I do use a sheet I designed after several years in a variety of campaigns. It's similar to the five-block format of published stat blocks. It shows the end bonuses, with the math available on a separate sheet. It wouldn't pass Bob's "common-format" muster, but it's very easy for me to find information in the middle of a fight.
Likewise, I've never used a "common format" character sheet; I just copy the format from one of my previous characters. Where the ur-format came from, I'm not sure; maybe the Core Coliseum forum on the WotC message boards?
The only problem is that it feels like they have been promissing the personalized printout for a year.
(For the record, I agree with you on HeroLab's output, too. They do not have the capability to personalize printout sheets yet, but assure us that it's coming.)
I don't think it's been quite that long, but it has definitely been awhile. The good news is that it's just around the corner. We're pushing hard to get Hero Lab V3.7 released by the end of next month. If not May, then it will definitely be out in June. When V3.7 releases, fully customized output will be possible via XSL.
We're handling custom output such that user-created XSL solutions can be fully integrated into Hero Lab and readily shared with other users. This way, if someone creates a cool character sheet, they can package it up into a single file using tools included within Hero Lab, post it somewhere (like here on the Pathfinder forums), and then other users can import the package automatically with a couple mouse clicks. After that, the new character sheet will be accessible directly from within Hero Lab. No special technical knowledge will be needed by users to leverage custom output formats created by others, so it will be possible for a few enterprising users to create awesome stuff and easily share it with everyone else.