Ok, so in the Zen Archer's flurry of blows it reads
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
The thing that gets me is "A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level." because the normal monk makes his flurry of blows as if with the Two Weapon fighting feats. So lets say a normal level 8 monk makes a Flurry of Blows. His BAB for this is 6/6/1/1, but he is doing it as if with the two-weapon fighting feat. My question is does the Zen Archer lose attacks on his flurry because of this? I mean how do you two weapon fight with a bow? Would a level 8 Zen Archers flurry not be 6/1 instead of 6/6/1/1 or does he retain the additional attacks?
Ok, so in the Zen Archer's flurry of blows it reads
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
The thing that gets me is "A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level." because the normal monk makes his flurry of blows as if with the Two Weapon fighting feats. So lets say a normal level 8 monk makes a Flurry of Blows. His BAB for this is 6/6/1/1, but he is doing it as if with the two-weapon fighting feat. My question is does the Zen Archer lose attacks on his flurry because of this? I mean how do you two weapon fight with a bow? Would a level 8 Zen Archers flurry not be 6/1 instead of 6/6/1/1 or does he retain the additional attacks?
He gets as many shots as his FoB indicates. Calculate it as normal, that's how many shots he gets, instead of melee attacks.
Yes but why does he get as many attacks as the Flurry of Blows table indicates? You can't hold one longbow in each hand and fire each one. A normal monks flurry works as if using the two weapon fighting feats.
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specific overrides general. In this case, the zen archer is a specific ability that overrides the normal inability to flurry with a bow.
And, although the flurry is made *as if* two-weapon fighting, the entry also is specific that you can make those attacks with any combination of strikes. That, in turn, means you can flurry with the same fist and get all of your attacks without resorting to multiple limbs to do so.
The zen monk has to give up a LOT in order to flurry with a bow. It's a fair tradeoff IMO.
He gets the attacks because the ability says he does. If you want a way to visualize the ability, imagine the monk pulling two arrows from his quiver, holding the first arrow in two fingers, firing the second arrow with the other three, then flipping that first arrow around and into place.
Or blurring speed drawing and releasing arrows.
Yes but why does he get as many attacks as the Flurry of Blows table indicates? You can't hold one longbow in each hand and fire each one. A normal monks flurry works as if using the two weapon fighting feats.
All the other monk weapons also get all the flurry attacks so why should a bow be any different.
The "As if" language is just there to indicate that the penalties and number of attacks are the same as if the monk had been taking the TWF chain of feats (as most 3.5 monks did). It means that taking those feats doesn't help you, because you're already getting the benefit, but it doesn't mean that the attacks you're making are actually based on two-weapon fighting.
Think of it as automatically including Rapid Shot, then a (theoretical) Improved Rapid Shot, and a Greater Rapid Shot.
What really puzzles me is why Zen Archers get Rapid Shot and Manyshot as bonus feats, but those specifically can't be used while flurrying.
Ok, so in the Zen Archer's flurry of blows it reads
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
The thing that gets me is "A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level." because the normal monk makes his flurry of blows as if with the Two Weapon fighting feats. So lets say a normal level 8 monk makes a Flurry of Blows. His BAB for this is 6/6/1/1, but he is doing it as if with the two-weapon fighting feat. My question is does the Zen Archer lose attacks on his flurry because of this? I mean how do you two weapon fight with a bow? Would a level 8 Zen Archers flurry not be 6/1 instead of 6/6/1/1 or does he retain the additional attacks?
So did you decide to start a new thread when the old one didn't provide the answer you wanted? Or do you figure the devs will answer you if you post this enough?
A zen archer makes the number of attacks when he flurries as the table indicates. As if two weapon fighting is a mechanical term not an asthetic one. TWF is a mechanic of getting extra attacks by taking a penalty. Much as an archer does with rapid shot. Which is why you can't TWF with a FoB and a zen archer can't use rapid shot with his FoB. Stop reading it like it's fluff, and see it for the crunch it is. And quit trying to take away the thing that makes a zen archer worth playing.
actually I think he double posted and other thread at the same time.
I'll repeat what I said I'n the othervthread though.
thevway the game is designed providing you are a full BaB class or 2/3 BaB class and you have all the feats ( rapid shot, many shot) you get to fire 8 arrows at lvl 8.
flurry mimics these feats approximately and results 4 arrows at lvl 8.
though it is pointed out zen archer can take rapid shot etc as bonus feats but I am not sure shybgiven they cannot be used with flurry.
but really Insisting zen archers should have 3 arrows and some weak version of flurrybis just not understanding the dukes and really ignores the one thing that matters.
the archetype says it works.
OP:
You are not two weapon fighting with a bow. That was explained in the other thread
By the rules all weapons that use FoB go by the FoB rules and the chart. "There is no all weapons except ______ get all the attacks." rule in place.
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon).
There you go. That bolded area explains it all.
Is an Zen archer allowed to use flurry of blows?-->Yes, because the APG says so.
How many attacks does flurry of blows do?-->The chart and text tell us.
Does the APG say that the bow receives less attacks than other weapons that work with FoB-->No it doesn't.
Does the flurry of blows state that the monk is using TWF?-->No. It only explains you are fighting as if you were using it. The reason is so people don't try to stack them to get extra attacks, and to explain where the penalties are coming from, and even if it did that bolded area would over rule the normal use of it so it would not matter anyway.
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon).There you go. That bolded area explains it all.
+1
well for now my dm is letting me play it that i get all the attacks on the flurry chart but it is still poorly worded. an errata would be nice on this still (and yeah, when i made this topic it never showed up for me for some weird reason so i made the new one lol). Anyways, an official response or errata is basically what my dm is waiting for but for now, like i said, my dm is letting me get all the attacks on the flurry table.
well for now my dm is letting me play it that i get all the attacks on the flurry chart but it is still poorly worded. an errata would be nice on this still (and yeah, when i made this topic it never showed up for me for some weird reason so i made the new one lol). Anyways, an official response or errata is basically what my dm is waiting for but for now, like i said, my dm is letting me get all the attacks on the flurry table.
Then your DM is likely going to be waiting for a very long time. It is not unclear, you fire the bow as if using TWF, and make the appropriate number of attacks, as if TWF, but you are not actually TWF.
The Devs usually get annoyed rather than clearing things up if they feel it's clear already.
well for now my dm is letting me play it that i get all the attacks on the flurry chart but it is still poorly worded. an errata would be nice on this still (and yeah, when i made this topic it never showed up for me for some weird reason so i made the new one lol). Anyways, an official response or errata is basically what my dm is waiting for but for now, like i said, my dm is letting me get all the attacks on the flurry table.
What is his interpretation of my previous post and the area I bolded?
a monk can flurry with shurikens which are ranged, just not near as ranged as a bow.
a monk can flurry with shurikens which are ranged, just not near as ranged as a bow.
Ranged is a simple on/off switch. Either a weapon is a ranged weapon or it isn't. Either an attack is ranged or it isn't (note though that those doesn't need to coincide necessarily).
thevway the game is designed providing you are a full BaB class or 2/3 BaB classWhat class get a 2/3 BaB?
I see 1/1, 3/4, 1/2 but no 2/3.
I've seen 3/4 BAB referred to as 2/3 fairly frequently - I may have even done it myself. I'm not sure why, though.
a monk can flurry with shurikens which are ranged, just not near as ranged as a bow.Ranged is a simple on/off switch. Either a weapon is a ranged weapon or it isn't. Either an attack is ranged or it isn't (note though that those doesn't need to coincide necessarily).
Wrong. A longbow has a 100ft range and a shortbow has a 60ft range. A shuriken has a 10ft range. Longbow 1d8 damage crit x3, shortbow 1d6 crit x3, shuriken 1d2 crit x2. There's a difference.
Wrong. A longbow has a 100ft range and a shortbow has a 60ft range. A shuriken has a 10ft range. Longbow 1d8 damage crit x3, shortbow 1d6 crit x3, shuriken 1d2 crit x2. There's a difference.a monk can flurry with shurikens which are ranged, just not near as ranged as a bow.Ranged is a simple on/off switch. Either a weapon is a ranged weapon or it isn't. Either an attack is ranged or it isn't (note though that those doesn't need to coincide necessarily).
But... they're all ranged. Which is what he said...
Wrong. A longbow has a 100ft range and a shortbow has a 60ft range. A shuriken has a 10ft range. Longbow 1d8 damage crit x3, shortbow 1d6 crit x3, shuriken 1d2 crit x2. There's a difference.a monk can flurry with shurikens which are ranged, just not near as ranged as a bow.Ranged is a simple on/off switch. Either a weapon is a ranged weapon or it isn't. Either an attack is ranged or it isn't (note though that those doesn't need to coincide necessarily).
Having different ranges isn't the same as being different amount of ranged. A long pole isn't more "poley" than a short pole, and half a hole is still a hole (well that analogy might be bad, but you get the meaning).
Longbows, shuriken and crossbows are all ranged weapons. Longswords, handaxes and longspear are all melee weapons. Longsword isn't more melee than a longspear because you have to get closer; it's a simple on/off switch. A weapon is either declared as ranged or as melee. Note that some melee weapons can perform ranged attacks (club, dagger, shortspear) while some ranged weapons can perform melee attacks (javelin for example). This doesn't change their weapon classification.