Some thoughts on the Master Chymist PrC

[Douglas Muir 406]

This is the PrC for the Jekyll / Hyde archetype. You have to be an alchemist. At some point after 8th level, you develop a new personality, which has a different appearance and alignment.

The class description says the two forms "share memories and basic goals", but I think this has to be viewed as a broad guideline rather than a strict rule -- if Dr. Jekyll is LG, and Mr. Hyde is CE, then their basic goals are likely to diverge quite a bit. Also, it seems to be canon that the iconic alchemist is a Master Chymist, and apparently he's horrified and tormented by his alter ego's activities.

Some thoughts:

-- Dr. Jekyll was at best only subconsciously aware of Mr. Hyde. Could you have a Master Chymist that was, at least initially, unaware of his/her alter ego?

-- Is there any way to eliminate your alter ego? Presumably not, since it would mean un-taking levels -- which Pathfinder does not support. (Could have done it in 3.0 or 3.5 by having a friendly wight or something drain them away. Painful, but maybe not too high a price to pay for periodically turning into Edward Hyde, Tyler Durden, Etrigan or the Hulk.) So, it's impossible... but that probably wouldn't stop a tormented Bruce Banner / Dr. Jekyll type from desperately looking for that Wish or Artifact.

Speaking only for myself, I'd be inclined to rule that you couldn't ever eliminate the other personality -- but you might perhaps be able to integrate with it, creating a new persona with aspects of both.

-- The RAW says that the alter ego "may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal form; they may look as different as two unrelated people." So, presumably the default is for nobody to recognize that Hyde is really Jekyll; there's no need for Disguise checks or such.

-- If a Master Chymist dies, what happens to her divided soul? Half goes to the Nine Hells, half to the Seven Heavens? If she becomes an undead, which alignment does it reflect? If her primary form has, let's say, a demon graft, and her mutagenic alter ego is good-aligned, does the graft survive the change?

-- Say for argument's sake that, back when you were young and foolish, you took a level of cleric. If your differently-aligned alter ego commits some act that's an abomination to your god, who suffers? Do you lose your cleric powers, and need an atonement to get them back?

-- The earliest you can start with Master Chymist is 9th level. At that point you get Mutagen Form for 90 minutes (10 minutes/level) twice/day, or max three hours. You can take the Extended Mutagen to double this. So, by 13th level you'll be up to 260 minutes 3x/day, or 13 hours. At 16th level you can stay mutated for 320 minutes 4x/day -- you'll only be your original self for less than three hours each day. At 18th level your old self can disappear altogether.

If your two selves are sharply at odds, your original self might not want this. Can the original self "veto" the choice to take another level of Master Chymist, taking a level of something else instead?

-- Finally, the default asumption seems to be that the mutagen form will be more evil than the original version. The opposite could be fun too, though. You have an evil alchemist who suddenly buds off his good side... which promptly starts working against him. I think that could be a neat NPC encounter; the good version is a PC ally, the bad one becomes a recurring foe.

Has anyone done much with this class? Played it, run it as a major NPC?

Doug M.

[Pendagast]

for the carrion crown AP we have a character who wants to be a master chymist whose evil alter ego takes levels of assassin that the original alchemist persona knows nothing about.

the chymists alter ego doesnt have to be a diametrically opposed alignment however, just a different one.

In this case the normal character is neutral and the alter ego is neutral evil.

good and evil personas dont necessarily have opposite goals, they simple go about reaching them differently.

Take banner/hulk.

the original banner/green hulk, hulk was dumb. like a mentally impaired child. but, after a nuclear accident, nuke bomb shadow hulk (enter the grey hulk) isn't stupid anymore.
He's NOT banner dumbed down, he's nearly as smart as banner, but with out the morals of banner and in fact it is revealed later, he is a completely different person.

At night, (which triggers the change instead of stress) the dark hulk emerges, during the day he's banner. eventually the grey hulk manages to find a way to stay hulk (for a while).
Grey hulk was decidedly more violent than the green hulk (which is hard to believe) as he did his violence on purpose and not out of some temper tantrum. Grey hulk, came to call himself "joe fixit", and laughably started his own mob ring.

grey hulk healed faster than green hulk (along the lines of wolverine) but was not as strong (initially) as the green hulk.

this is two different version of basically the same "character build"
In version one (green) the alchemist banner might be Lawful Good and the Hulk Chaotic Good, or Possibly chaotic neutral, Banner knows all about the green hulk and fears him.

Version two (grey) banner does NOT know about grey hulk, has no memory of what happens at night (but suspects it has to do with the hulk) and the grey hulk is IMO neutral evil or possibly lawful evil.
He's certainly no longer chaotic, and definitely not 'good' anymore. Although there may be some arguement for a true neutral, as he is mostly concerned with his own power and self preservation, and/or revenge.

[0gre]

Starting backwards, I know someone who played an alchemist that used chemicals to become a superhero. She was stronger, nicer, and just all around better than her non-mutated self. Very cool idea.

I don't see characters 'choosing' what class they take next level. That is a player choice. A character might choose not to take his mutagen and not mutate deliberately but then would still be subject to mutation due to failing a Fort Save or taking a critical hit (HULK SMASH!).

Many of the rest of the ideas you discuss are up to the player. I would assume that if the character knows his alter ego is evil that it is at least a little evil to mutate, likewise it would be a good act to mutate into a good mutagenic form. As such I think it would be difficult for your mutagenic form to have a diametrically opposed alignment since invoking that form would bring your alignment closer to it's alignment.

[Derwalt]

0gre wrote:

I would assume that if the character knows his alter ego is evil that it is at least a little evil to mutate, likewise it would be a good act to mutate into a good mutagenic form. As such I think it would be difficult for your mutagenic form to have a diametrically opposed alignment since invoking that form would bring your alignment closer to it's alignment.

Ha! That's an excellent argument. I hadn't thought of that. Then the transformation should only occur unconsciously - like form a critical hit - or if the character was in dire straits, then he could choose to mutate "for the greater good / survival" - and then afterwards seek atonement for his deeds done while mutated... I like that :)

[Douglas Muir 406]

0gre wrote:

I don't see characters 'choosing' what class they take next level. That is a player choice.

Obviously I'm thinking of NPCs here. In which case it's obviously my (the DM's) choice, but I'm wondering how to present it in-game. (Hyde is killing people like crazy to gain experience, so he doesn't have to be Jekyll so much?)

Doug M.

[0gre]

With me... NPCs take whatever class makes most sense and the most fun for the adventure. Most likely the players aren't going to complain (or even know) if your NPC has 2 levels of Master Chymst or 4 and two additional levels of Alchemist.

[E I]

I actually thought it might be interesting as opposed to the usual Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hide dilemma, to having a fairly timid and shy, but self-centered and egotistical Alchemist transform into a female paragon of virtue. The idea here being the alter-ego being a manifestation of a deeper altruistic desire, buried by years of isolation in his research, and lack of social mores.

Granted, spontaneous sex change might make everyone at the table a little uncomfortable. I would also see that the Alchemist might fear the change immensely due to constant loss and regain of some of his *ahem* materials...

[Selgard]

As an NPC/Villain I'd say be fairly careful with this PrC.

With paladin and clerics of good deities you have the fairly strong potential for someone to lose their powers if the "primary" is good and the "alter" is evil because the only real way to stop the evil is to slay the good creature. There is no RAW way to "end" the ability of the PrC's alter form to come to the front and commit evil. The absolute best you could hope for would be permanent incarceration where the person is restrained enough that the alter ego can't possibly escape.

An evil that you can only do away with by killing someone who, depending on how you write up the backstory, is potentially innocent of any wrong doing is an excellent way to have someone become an Ex-Paladin or whatnot. Even among those classes where alignment isn't a gateway to losing their powers its prime to cause some issues.

If I was a DM wanting to use something like this I'd probably "alter it" to allow the NPC alchemist to turn someone *else* into the beast by forcing them to drink mutagen. I realize this isn't RAW but it gives the PC's the ability to save someone (the victim) while also being able to stop the evil.

Know your group well before you try something like the Jeckyll/Hide thing or you'll end up with some pretty heavy inter-party problems.

just my .02.

-S

[Abraham spalding]

Selgard wrote:

As an NPC/Villain I'd say be fairly careful with this PrC.

With paladin and clerics of good deities you have the fairly strong potential for someone to lose their powers if the "primary" is good and the "alter" is evil because the only real way to stop the evil is to slay the good creature. There is no RAW way to "end" the ability of the PrC's alter form to come to the front and commit evil. The absolute best you could hope for would be permanent incarceration where the person is restrained enough that the alter ego can't possibly escape.

Permanent anti-magic field would work since the mutate ability and the mutagen itself are both supernatural.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Selgard wrote:

As an NPC/Villain I'd say be fairly careful with this PrC.

Yah, I see the problem there. One alter ego is a slavering monster; the other is kindly Dr. Jekyll. There is the Kid Miracleman solution, but it's ugly.

I was toying with the idea of an NPC loosely based on Chelsea Grinn. (Webcomic. Good, but NSFW.) Multiple personality, the dominant one is a stone killer, but there's a good kid in there somewhere. The problem is, there's no easy exit.

But I think I might throw something like this in as a just-in-passing NPC. Not someone the PCs are compelled to deal with, but someone they encounter while other things are happening.

Doug M.

[Abraham spalding]

It would also depend on the type of evil the alter ego is too.

I mean if it is a Turin like villain they might be possible to deal with using non-violent means. If it is a really aggressive "HULK SMASH" type then it might simply mean defending yourself to their death at some point.

[Cilyndros]

I think this has a lot of potential, especially from a Paladin / Alchemist perspective. while there's not really a lot of playability numbers-wise (you could have the high Str but the CHA of an alchemist is usually low), I could readily see a Palchemist (as I now call them) who realizes his alter-ego is evil being forced to rely on the "temporary alliance" clause of the paladin code to defeat the threat to the entire world using every weapon at his disposal, even if that meant his own mind, and then when everything is safe he could voluntarily imprison himself in the aforementioned Anti-magic Field. Or he could escape, turn his paladin levels into blackguard levels, and be the villain behind an entire campaign....

I don't even see a problem with "switching" the alter-egos after a certain point, as long as you allow the bonuses to follow the "minor" personality. Maybe Armand Grayson realizes as time goes by that it is harder and harder to revert to himself after Cleavin' Cayden is out and about, so he spends one last desperate act to pull the power of the mutagen away from him, relinquishing his "native" hold on the body for the ability to have freedom to act as he sees fit- and the power to do so- a few times per day (I think the active identity technically counts as the soul, but YMMV).

Time to start building this character, I think.

[0gre]

Selgard wrote:

An evil that you can only do away with by killing someone who, depending on how you write up the backstory, is potentially innocent of any wrong doing is an excellent way to have someone become an Ex-Paladin or whatnot. Even among those classes where alignment isn't a gateway to losing their powers its prime to cause some issues.

This is far from the 'kill a schoolbus full of kids to save the planet' type moral dilemma, there a a few workable solutions. If they feel they have to kill Jekyll/ Hyde to end the streak of murders then I don't see a conflict provided they actually thought it through.

I actually think this is a great sort of challenge for the LG type players (as long as the GM isn't a jerk about it). I don't think it's fair to shaft someone on alignment as long as they are:

Keeping their alignment in mind

Trying the best they can within character to make that work.

Having fun

[Mathwei ap Niall]

My scary question is how does the Master Chymist PrC work with the Magic Jar spell? I can see *MY* Mr. Hyde deciding that he's tired of only having a few hours a day in control setting up a plan to extend his time alive by switching to the Hyde form then into a magic jar then to a fresh new body to control for a LOT longer then the duration of controlling Jekyll's body.

What would happen if the artificially Jekyll persona died while separate? Would the next time the alchemist quaffed his mutagen create a new Jekyll or revive the old one from death?

How would you rule on it?

[Abraham spalding]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

My scary question is how does the Master Chymist PrC work with the Magic Jar spell? I can see *MY* Mr. Hyde deciding that he's tired of only having a few hours a day in control setting up a plan to extend his time alive by switching to the Hyde form then into a magic jar then to a fresh new body to control for a LOT longer then the duration of controlling Jekyll's body.

What would happen if the artificially Jekyll persona died while separate? Would the next time the alchemist quaffed his mutagen create a new Jekyll or revive the old one from death?

How would you rule on it?

Magic Jar affects the soul not the minds connected to it. Since the soul is a single entity (even with two personalities attached to it) the alchemist would take his split personality with him.

[Stolen seconds]

Don't forget that the personalities don't have to be completely at odds. In Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde's case, Hyde murdered those that stood in Jekyll's way and chased the things Jekyll desired. He was Jekyll's Id, unrestrained. The Hulk began that way as well, the unleashed frustration and rage within Banner, until they made him smart. You can have an evil side that wants the same things, but differs on the means. Take, for instance, a band of thieves terrorizing a town. The alchemist may want to alert authorities, set a trap, or even bring them to justice in a way that ensures a minimum of pain. His evil half may just find relatives of the thieves and murder them until the band stops. He may set fire to a house they are robbing. Same goal, different methods. Hyde didn't start fighting Jekyll until Jekyll tried to kill Hyde. They share a body, after all.

[phantom1592]

I'm SERIOUSLy looking at this as a future character... Just got done watching 'Jekyll' from BBC and LOVED it... gets weird in places, but James nesbitt's (??)Hyde is AWESOME in a chaotic neutral kind of way... Highly recommend it... Netflix has it...

Ironically our main group already HAS an alchemist.. but he focuses all his energy on bombing and not the mutagen... Just goes to show how two people can see the same class and want COMPLETLEY different things out of it ;)

Out of curiosity? Why can you not get Master Chymist before 9th? My observations say 8th...

As for 'destroying' the alter ego... i occassionally tell my dm certain goals for my characters... that are purely RP fluff. I don't WANT them to become a side quest for that character... as the CHARACTER... i'd HATE hyde... as the PLAYER... i'm looking forward to it!!

Although, even the CHARACTERS don't have to hate each other. Originally Jekyll LIKED Hyde. Hyde wasn't really EVIL and MEAN... he just did What he wanted... when he wanted. Pure impulse and freedom. Jekyll was jealous of that, and CHOSE to become Hyde by taking potions all the time... only after Hydes urges started getting darker and scarier did he try to stop... but in the beginning it was similiar to going home and relaxing with a cold beer...

[Ævux]

Actually by RAW people know that the altered self is the first self. RAI yes, people will say that there is no need for disguise checks.

[Deadmanwalking]

Ævux wrote:

Actually by RAW people know that the altered self is the first self. RAI yes, people will say that there is no need for disguise checks.

This...is an extremely controversial interpretation even of the RAW. It's been argued extensively other places, and shouldn't need to be here, I'm just noting that, even going by pure RAW, a fair number of people say the altered self can't be connected to the original.

Others, however, do agree with Ævux,and you should check with your GM to make sure he's not both one of them and a RAW extremist.

[Ughbash]

I think it would be interesting instead of always having the "alter ego" be brutish to isntead let him be charismatic and sophisotcated.

Alchemist thinks to himself I never get the ladies, they are alwsy gaping after those effeminite elves *burp*. Goes to sleep and "Mr. Class" the Half elven dashing hero comes out. Regales the ladies, laughs with the men, attends the finest parties before disappearing off into the sunrise.

Alchemist wakes up, grr nobody likes me, I'm going to head down to the bar and toss in a smoke bomb.

[Abraham spalding]

So DNA^2 for you Ughbash?

[VM mercenario]

DNA^2 or the Nutty Professor, anyway could be a fun concept to roleplay.

[Ughbash]

Abraham spalding wrote:

So DNA^2 for you Ughbash?

I am sure it is a movie or book or something.. but afraid the refernce went right over my head.

[Mahorfeus]

I'd do a Master Chymist villain Sensui-style...well, kind of like him anyway. The Jekyll personality is NE or LE, being cold and calculating, while the Hyde is CE, degenerating into outright savage slaughter, with no care for manners. That way, there's no moral dilemma - you just gotta kill the guy.

[0gre]

phantom1592 wrote:

Out of curiosity? Why can you not get Master Chymist before 9th? My observations say 8th...

The way I figure alchemists are going to want to stay in the alchemist class until he can qualify for fast bombs and force bomb at 8th level. Those discoveries are just too good to skip even if you are primarily a melee alchemist.

That said... With Ultimate Magic being shipped in 3-5 weeks I think most melee focused alchemists are going to go with the vivisectionist archtype (check the blog from Tuesday) and forego bombing. The idea of getting sneak attack with feral mutagen is just too awesome.

With vivisectionist you would jump into master chymst after the 7th level sneak attack bump. It's still possible you might want to stick around for that final discovery at 8th level, particularly since there are clearly more good melee related mutagens when you probably won't be able to take as advanced mutagens (though I would hope most GMs would work with that limitation and let you take mutagen related discoveries as Advanced Mutagens).

Quote:

Although, even the CHARACTERS don't have to hate each other. Originally Jekyll LIKED Hyde. Hyde wasn't really EVIL and MEAN... he just did What he wanted... when he wanted. Pure impulse and freedom. Jekyll was jealous of that, and CHOSE to become Hyde by taking potions all the time... only after Hydes urges started getting darker and scarier did he try to stop... but in the beginning it was similiar to going home and relaxing with a cold beer...

Yeah, I think the relationship between the two can vary significantly based on whatever relationship you want to establish. My wife's character is a half orc trying to expunge the weak human parts from her system through alchemy so she considers her mutated form an upgraded version of herself.

[Abraham spalding]

Ughbash wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

So DNA^2 for you Ughbash?

I am sure it is a movie or book or something.. but afraid the refernce went right over my head.

Google Fu, just for you!

[Is Errant]

0gre wrote:

Quote:

Although, even the CHARACTERS don't have to hate each other. Originally Jekyll LIKED Hyde. Hyde wasn't really EVIL and MEAN... he just did What he wanted... when he wanted. Pure impulse and freedom. Jekyll was jealous of that, and CHOSE to become Hyde by taking potions all the time... only after Hydes urges started getting darker and scarier did he try to stop... but in the beginning it was similiar to going home and relaxing with a cold beer...

Yeah, I think the relationship between the two can vary significantly based on whatever relationship you want to establish. My wife's character is a half orc trying to expunge the weak human parts from her system through alchemy so she considers her mutated form an upgraded version of herself.

Heh, I'm amused. I've got a Half-Orc Barb/Alch headed towards Master Chymist as well, who's doing the opposite thing. He tries to be as smart, urbane, and human as possible... but the lure of the destruction and learning in alchemy, and the safety of mutation and raging keep sucking him in.