What's necrophilia, you ask? Well, remember Bella and Edward from those Twilight movies...Or if you remember this... Buffy and Angel, because they did it better!
+1
And at least in that case we actually see consequences :p
I never even noticed that ogres are into necrophilia. I missed that completely.
That being said, I think you should be open with her and answer her questions as best you can. I don't know her or what she understands about adult topics. If she already has the basics for the birds and the bees, tell her that it takes place with dead bodies. She is very likely to say how sick that is. She may even want to change that about the ogres. Let her know that she isn't tied to the fluff about a creature if she doesn't like it.
I just took a moment to actually read the entry. That first paragraph is a great way to describe ogres and I think she will understand very fast that it is a horrible act.
Thats kinda funny I just noticed that thing on ogres about 2 hours ago before reading this thread.
1st edition books had more boobies on monsters than pathfinder monsters.... and i mean naked boobies.
Necrophilia can simply be explained as "they really like dead bodies" and leave it at that, cannibalism and eating little children (like previously mentioned Hansel and Gretel) is pretty main stream "scary".
Rape is probably the worst word there. Honestly.
I know when I was 10 I knew a lot more than what I should have it was all thanks to out side influences and reading at 7 I new all about sex and even looked through the comasutra found out about porn early to.
Thing is I did not find out about playing with yourself till I was 14 and the only reason I found out was because I was told not to do it.
guess my point is kids find out on there own it's not such a big deal but when parents get over involved they not only learn more but it Also puts there curosity into overdrive.
Sorry if I misspelled anything.
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I know when I was 10 I knew a lot more than what I should have it was all thanks to out side influences and reading at 7 I new all about sex and even looked through the comasutra found out about porn early to.
Thing is I did not find out about playing with yourself till I was 14 and the only reason I found out was because I was told not to do it.
guess my point is kids find out on there own it's not such a big deal but when parents get over involved they not only learn more but it Also puts there curosity into overdrive.
Sorry if I misspelled anything.
I am guessing you meant Kama Sutra. Not trying to be a ass, just showing the how it is actually spelled. Assuming you don't mean something I know nothing about that is. :)
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I am guessing you meant Kama Sutra. Not trying to be a ass, just showing the how it is actually spelled. Assuming you don't mean something I know nothing about that is. :)I know when I was 10 I knew a lot more than what I should have it was all thanks to out side influences and reading at 7 I new all about sex and even looked through the comasutra found out about porn early to.
Thing is I did not find out about playing with yourself till I was 14 and the only reason I found out was because I was told not to do it.
guess my point is kids find out on there own it's not such a big deal but when parents get over involved they not only learn more but it Also puts there curosity into overdrive.
Sorry if I misspelled anything.
Actually, the commasutra is pretty well known.
Some excerpts:
,,
;
::
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I am guessing you meant Kama Sutra. Not trying to be a ass, just showing the how it is actually spelled. Assuming you don't mean something I know nothing about that is. :)I know when I was 10 I knew a lot more than what I should have it was all thanks to out side influences and reading at 7 I new all about sex and even looked through the comasutra found out about porn early to.
Thing is I did not find out about playing with yourself till I was 14 and the only reason I found out was because I was told not to do it.
guess my point is kids find out on there own it's not such a big deal but when parents get over involved they not only learn more but it Also puts there curosity into overdrive.
Sorry if I misspelled anything.
Actually, the commasutra is pretty well known.
Some excerpts:
,,
;
::
That's just dirty to post on a public forum. So naturally I approve.
I am guessing you meant Kama Sutra. Not trying to be a ass, just showing the how it is actually spelled. Assuming you don't mean something I know nothing about that is. :)
No I spelled it wrong :)
I am not very good with grammer or spelling also thanks for correcting me
I am guessing you meant Kama Sutra. Not trying to be a ass, just showing the how it is actually spelled. Assuming you don't mean something I know nothing about that is. :)I know when I was 10 I knew a lot more than what I should have it was all thanks to out side influences and reading at 7 I new all about sex and even looked through the comasutra found out about porn early to.
Thing is I did not find out about playing with yourself till I was 14 and the only reason I found out was because I was told not to do it.
guess my point is kids find out on there own it's not such a big deal but when parents get over involved they not only learn more but it Also puts there curosity into overdrive.
Sorry if I misspelled anything.
No Comasutra is correct because if you try everything you see in it, you will wind up in a coma.
It might be helpful to remember that the average ten year old is a fifth grader. The stuff they're talking about and sharing at the school play yard at this time, probably leaves Pathfinder in the dust content wise.
That is true, but we are not supposed to know of this and must react with abject horror at the idea ;) . Reminds me of a joke - a 8-year old, 7-year old and 6-year old are playing around one afternoon and they see some silhouettes across a curtain. The 8-year old says the people must be wrestling, the 7-year old corrects him that they are having sex, and the 6-year old, after a second adds "The man isn't very good at it, is he?"
http://instantcrickets.com/
Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure most of the material in the core books won't leave much of a mark on a 10-year old, but it might help if they don't get to peek in the bestiary too much. That way things are a surprise, and I doubt they can differentiate very well between character and player knowledge.
Slightly OT:
Please correct me if I'm wrong (and don't take anything I write too seriously), but I bet most of you are Americans, right?
It always striks me as curious that (lots of) Americans seem to make such a big deal out of anything that is remotley connected to sex while having almost no problems with anything that has to do with violence.
How does that country even exist? Judging by most american movies / series one would think that Americans keep killing each other while having no clou of how to reproduce ;)
In this thread I read at least twice that the word "rape" is among the worst words in that ogre entry... I don't say rape is good or anything, but is it realy "worse" then dismembering someone?!? Or even killing someone? Or canibalism? I think that is a rather strange point of view...
Slightly OT:
Please correct me if I'm wrong (and don't take anything I write too seriously), but I bet most of you are Americans, right?
It always striks me as curious that (lots of) Americans seem to make such a big deal out of anything that is remotley connected to sex while having almost no problems with anything that has to do with violence.
I blame the Puritans.
If you also want non game related fantasy authors my personal favorite is mercedes lackey. The only warning about her valdemar novels is the mentioning of healthy homosexual relationships mixed in with regular heterosexual relationships. Other than that the psionic police and celestial ponies are a good read.
I'm confused -- you make it sound like "healthy homosexual relationships" are a bad thing...
Or are you just pointing this fact out in case the hypothetical parental unit out there has a problem with gay relationships being portrayed in a positive light?
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
While my wife and I don't have kids yet, we have talked about this type of thing and we have to admit that a lot of it depends on the child in question.
Your daughter seems remarkably mature, which is a good sign. You say that she's allowed to watch pretty much what she wants, which suggests she is capable of handling complex and slightly adult themes (if not understanding them).
Considering what she might be exposed to on the programs she watches in a worse case scenario, can you think of ways that you might explain it to her if one of those topics came up?
Incest can be covered by explaining that they marry their brothers and sisters. Most kids (especially those with brothers or sister) will respond with "Ew!" and won't need much more explaining. If she demands a reason why it's bad, you might be able to get away with "it hurts any kids they have".
Someone else suggested that Necrophilia could be covered by saying it involves "playing with dead people". By 10 she probably has some concept of respect for the dead, and that's probably all she'd need to know or even wonder about.
As for Cannibalism, well, I remember my mother reading Robinson Crusoe, which does deal with that topic. Besides, children of 10 already know that Ogre's eat people. It's just the "adult" term for it.
If she's taken to GM'ing, chances are that she's going to be far more concerned with the rules than how the book describes the ogre. After all, every kid knows that ogres are evil, ugly monsters that eat people (especially considering the illustration). She probably already "knows" how ogre's are bad and isn't going to change that too much.
That's how I'd like to think I would approach it, but I realize that theory and practice are really different. There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect her, and you'll do whatever is right for her. She sounds like a good kid, and she's really luck to have a father like you.
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I thought the Coma Sutra was a book full of things you can do to someone in a coma. Which might actually be worse than necrophilia, now that I think about it.Bad Shinji, bad
I'm not sure what's worse: the fact that I lol'd @ Mikaze's reference, or the fact that I recognized it in the first place.
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I'm not sure what's worse: the fact that I lol'd @ Mikaze's reference, or the fact that I recognized it in the first place.I thought the Coma Sutra was a book full of things you can do to someone in a coma. Which might actually be worse than necrophilia, now that I think about it.Bad Shinji, bad
At least the boy's gotten better in the new movies.
Hell, everyone got better...
It's like their universe got just a tiny transfusion of Gurren Lagann into its blood
I thought the Coma Sutra was a book full of things you can do to someone in a coma. Which might actually be worse than necrophilia, now that I think about it.Bad Shinji, bad
I looked at this post and got confused, wondering if I had accidentally clicked on the one about casting charm person on an unconscious target.
If you also want non game related fantasy authors my personal favorite is mercedes lackey. The only warning about her valdemar novels is the mentioning of healthy homosexual relationships mixed in with regular heterosexual relationships. Other than that the psionic police and celestial ponies are a good read.I'm confused -- you make it sound like "healthy homosexual relationships" are a bad thing...
Or are you just pointing this fact out in case the hypothetical parental unit out there has a problem with gay relationships being portrayed in a positive light?
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
I could be wrong, but my read was that it was a bit of a warning about complicated sexual questions popping up from the book. Sex talks are far more complicated that when most of us were kids, and they're harder to prepare for. It is better that the parent know that questions around sexual preference may come up because of this book, rather than them getting asked and left scrambling for answers that may be poorly worded or really awkwardly shaped because they hadn't even considered the kid would be asking them for another few years.
First off, I would agree with those who say Internet forums probably aren't the best place to turn to for parenting advice. Try other parents you know and respect first (like the people whose kids you really think are great), or your own parents, or your pastor, or a qualified child development specialist. Random folks you don't know on the Internet aren't likely to be the best sources of inspiration in this area.
That said, your question is specifically about PF/D&D and kids, so some folks on this forum might have informed opinions. I have kids, have gamed since I was 13, and have thought long and hard about these issues, so I might have something to add. For context, know that I'm a Christian and pretty conservative with what I choose to expose my kids too, limiting Internet access, videogames and TV shows they are allowed to watch, as well as the total amount of "screen time" they are allowed per day. I also play PF with my kids, now 14 and 12, but do try and clean it up a bit (e.g. in Kingmaker it's now an "entertainment district" rather than a "brothel").
I agree with James that PF/D&D is an adult-oriented game, and agree with his general rating of it as PG-13. It is exceptionally violent, frequently has some very questionable situational ethics (killing monsters and taking their stuff makes you a "hero"), and deals with some mature themes like sexuality, demon worship, etc. For those kids who are religious, it might also be confusing to have make-believe "gods" in the game.
A lot of people on this forum seem to be taking the angle of "what harm does it do?" and point out, quite correctly, that eventually they will get exposed to all this stuff anyway, probably sooner than we realize. I choose to flip that question around and ask "what good does it do?" Is anything in your child's development actually helped by exposing them to concepts like necrophilia and incest at the age of 6 or 8 or 10 rather than in their teen years? Our society, due to the overwhelming prevalence and availability of mass media, is pushing children to "grow up", particularly with regard to sexual matters, much faster now than in recent history. I, for one, do not think that is a good thing, but opinions may vary.
My recommendation to parents asking me about PF/D&D has always been that each parent is best placed to judge whether their own child is ready for it, but that 12 years old is a good guideline for the average kid. I also recommend that they read the books themselves and make their own judgment before letting their kid play. Finally, I recommend that they play with their kids if they let them play, to be able to put challenging things in context, just like I recommend watching TV with them and playing their videogames with them.
For the Paizo developers, I would just add that I know the game is intended to be adult-oriented, but you know that many kids play, and that many of us like to share the things we love, like Pathfinder, with our kids (which grows your future market). I would just ask that you consider that when editing your materials. Not that everything has to be kid-safe - parents have that responsibility, not publishers. But perhaps if you just ask yourself, for example, if the words included in the ogre description that some might find objectionable for their kids are really necessary, or if other, less objectionable words could have been used to get across the main point that ogres are cruel, nasty, degenerate brutes destined for a well-deserved end on the point of a hero's sword.
In the end, though, I'm just a guy on the Internet with an opinion that you may or may not agree with.
wasnt the original basic box set for ages 8 and up. or was it 12 and up?
(back when things used to have age guidelines on the box)
Our society, due to the overwhelming prevalence and availability of mass media, is pushing children to "grow up", particularly with regard to sexual matters, much faster now than in recent history. I, for one, do not think that is a good thing, but opinions may vary.
I'll give you recent history. However, I think a lot of people underestimate kids. And, historically, for the last 3 or 4 thousand years, 'kids' were exposed to this stuff a lot earlier than we feel comfortable with.
A girl who was 14 and not married was unusual 1500 years ago, and one who was 18 was a spinster, and probably would never marry. Kids started working at 10 and 12 as apprentices, and worked before that helping the parents.
I'm not saying that that was a good thing, just saying that they were able to deal back then without going insane or becoming pariahs on society, so I think we can assume the human brain hasn't changed that much in the last couple thousand years.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing your stance, every parent has to go through the same thing. I don't currently have kids, but me and my wife talk about how we're going to handle this. She is adamant she wants them at the gaming table, so I'm thinking all this stuff hard myself. Each kid is different, I have known 8yo's who had the emotional maturity of an adult, and 18yo's that had the emotional maturity of a 2yo.
I think it comes down to, know your kid. Give them the most adult explanation that they can assimilate. I was 15 when I started college, believe me, I remember being a kid and being talked down to. The worst thing you can do is let your kid think that you don't have faith in them when it comes to explanations like this. If they feel you don't trust them, they won't trust you, and they'll go get their information somewhere else.
StuffAnyone else find the irony in the fact that Brian's avatar is that of a inebriated satyr and he's bringing up those points funny?
Not making any fun Brian. I just like irony. ;)
Thanks for making me laugh. I totally missed the irony myself. And feel free to make fun. When we lose the ability to laugh at ourselves, we've probably also lost the chance anyone will take us seriously.
As for my avatar, suffice it to say that, it, like any character I play in PF/D&D, may or may not have any real resemblance to my real personality. I do like beer, though. :)
Our society, due to the overwhelming prevalence and availability of mass media, is pushing children to "grow up", particularly with regard to sexual matters, much faster now than in recent history. I, for one, do not think that is a good thing, but opinions may vary.I'll give you recent history. However, I think a lot of people underestimate kids. And, historically, for the last 3 or 4 thousand years, 'kids' were exposed to this stuff a lot earlier than we feel comfortable with.
A girl who was 14 and not married was unusual 1500 years ago, and one who was 18 was a spinster, and probably would never marry. Kids started working at 10 and 12 as apprentices, and worked before that helping the parents.
I'm not saying that that was a good thing, just saying that they were able to deal back then without going insane or becoming pariahs on society, so I think we can assume the human brain hasn't changed that much in the last couple thousand years.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing your stance, every parent has to go through the same thing. I don't currently have kids, but me and my wife talk about how we're going to handle this. She is adamant she wants them at the gaming table, so I'm thinking all this stuff hard myself. Each kid is different, I have known 8yo's who had the emotional maturity of an adult, and 18yo's that had the emotional maturity of a 2yo.
I think it comes down to, know your kid. Give them the most adult explanation that they can assimilate. I was 15 when I started college, believe me, I remember being a kid and being talked down to. The worst thing you can do is let your kid think that you don't have faith in them when it comes to explanations like this. If they feel you don't trust them, they won't trust you, and they'll go get their information somewhere else.
I don't think we have any disagreement. You picked up correctly why I said "recent history" rather than ever. And you also recognize that, even thugh kids worked and married much younger in past years, that wasn't necessarily a good thing. As to whether they handled it well, I really don't know, and it was pretty irrelevant. They had no choice.
I'm all for talking with your kids about sex and other controversial subjects early and often, rather than letting them seek their explanations elsewhere. I think it is basic good parenting. However, that is a little different than exposing them to how the mass media (or Pathfinder for that matter) treats those same subjects. People should think about how and when they want their kids to be exposed to certain things (and not procrastinate too long out of cowardice), and make sure they are around to answer questions and give context. That's all I'm really saying.
And good luck with your young'uns when you have them. My overall advice on kids is to love them, be a good role model yourself, and provide some kind of rules/structure (as loose or as strict as you choose, but something) to their lives, and they'll be just fine.
Chances are if you refuse to explain something or restrict her she'll Google it and that could result in a traumatised child.
Yeah reason when I got older and started to believe if I had kids I wouldn't censor them is because of that and with the stuff you can get under a google search.
I agree with DM Wellard that you should tell her or atleast explain it only very slightly explain it as he suggested: Tell her Necrophilia is doing evil things with dead people and she'll probably accept it.
I don't think we have any disagreement. You picked up correctly why I said "recent history" rather than ever. And you also recognize that, even thugh kids worked and married much younger in past years, that wasn't necessarily a good thing. As to whether they handled it well, I really don't know, and it was pretty irrelevant. They had no choice.
Seeing how society stuck to it for most of human history, I have a hard time seeing that it was all bad. If it really didn't work over that long of testing, than someone would have come up with a different method. Children are capable of a lot more than we tend to give them credit for these days. That being said, on an individual basis, it is most certainly up to each parent to decide what is or is not appropriate for their children.
I have only this thought to add. Would you rather them see a passing reference in a context they are familiar with that you can probably explain away easily enough as something that makes that creature one of the bad guys and that they will understand more when they get older or have them hear it on the schoolyard in a completely random context and have them google it only to find all the stuff that you really don't want them exposed to at that age?
I am not recommending just passing the bestiary around at school as a show and tell presentation, but for a child already familiar enough with most of the concepts in DnD to be DMing, a passing reference in one of the core books shouldn't be too much for them to handle. The fact that you are aware of the possibility and wanting to have an answer ready should it come up is a good sign that both you and her will manage it just fine if it comes up. Kudos to you for being so proactive about your parenting. It bodes well for your daughter.
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I am guessing you meant Kama Sutra. Not trying to be a ass, just showing the how it is actually spelled. Assuming you don't mean something I know nothing about that is. :)I know when I was 10 I knew a lot more than what I should have it was all thanks to out side influences and reading at 7 I new all about sex and even looked through the comasutra found out about porn early to.
Thing is I did not find out about playing with yourself till I was 14 and the only reason I found out was because I was told not to do it.
guess my point is kids find out on there own it's not such a big deal but when parents get over involved they not only learn more but it Also puts there curosity into overdrive.
Sorry if I misspelled anything.
No Comasutra is correct because if you try everything you see in it, you will wind up in a coma.
I never ended up in a coma... wore our and sore sure but never a coma personally. :)
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I blame the Puritans.Slightly OT:
Please correct me if I'm wrong (and don't take anything I write too seriously), but I bet most of you are Americans, right?
It always striks me as curious that (lots of) Americans seem to make such a big deal out of anything that is remotley connected to sex while having almost no problems with anything that has to do with violence.
Yet we are the worlds largest consumers of porn. I think the real thing is, most American's are not uptight about sex or sexuality but that it is not consider polite to bring it up in the open. It is something one should share with those one cares about behind closed the doors.
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Slightly OT:
Please correct me if I'm wrong (and don't take anything I write too seriously), but I bet most of you are Americans, right?
It always striks me as curious that (lots of) Americans seem to make such a big deal out of anything that is remotley connected to sex while having almost no problems with anything that has to do with violence.
How does that country even exist? Judging by most american movies / series one would think that Americans keep killing each other while having no clou of how to reproduce ;)
Check out Regeneration Through Violence by Richard Slotkin. He does a pretty good job, imo, of tracing the roots of America's violent mythology.
A lot of people on this forum seem to be taking the angle of "what harm does it do?" and point out, quite correctly, that eventually they will get exposed to all this stuff anyway, probably sooner than we realize. I choose to flip that question around and ask "what good does it do?"
As one of those who asked "what harm does it do", I agree -- having that over-the-top stuff in the Ogre description does no good at all. I wish they had left it out; it's like a "dead baby" joke that a middle-schooler would think was cool.
Yet we are the worlds largest consumers of porn. I think the real thing is, most American's are not uptight about sex or sexuality but that it is not consider polite to bring it up in the open. It is something one should share with those one cares about behind closed the doors.I blame the Puritans.Slightly OT:
Please correct me if I'm wrong (and don't take anything I write too seriously), but I bet most of you are Americans, right?
It always striks me as curious that (lots of) Americans seem to make such a big deal out of anything that is remotley connected to sex while having almost no problems with anything that has to do with violence.
Actualy I think it is because the more you repress something the more allure it has. For instance during Victorian times in England prostitution was very big...but after a society stopped being soo repressive it diminished it.
I started playing AD&D at something like the age of nine or ten. I have to say it gave me a HUGE advantage in several ways during school. Math, knowledge of religion, myths, historic weapons, and especially vocabulary. To this day I consider myself to have a fairly good vocabulary, but I still come across a few words in the Paizo books that I have to look up - and I'm really happy about that.
On the subject of Ogres and Necrophilia - I loved the Hook Mountain Massacre. Loved the disturbing descriptions, the gore, and the way ogres were portrayed as creatures that really are the stuff of nightmares. I really liked that the whole AP seemed to be written for adults. With that said, I would love to see more adult-orientated AP's, but I would also like to see some PG rated AP's as well. I feel that the Core books should remain "vanilla" enough that folks can play with their kids without worrying about them seeing "that page". I don't think a mention of necrophilia crosses that line, but there are many things that happen in the AP's that I would consider a little too adult for the Core rules.
Note: Nudity is a separate issue to me as well. I feel that as long as it is done "tastefully" there is nothing inherently "dirty" about the human form.
Not that it really applies here, but I found this, and thought it is a good statement:
WARNING/GUARANTEE
This album contains material which a truly free society would neither fear nor suppress.
In some socially retarded areas, religious fanatics and ultra-conservative political organizations violate your First Amendment Rights by attempting to censor rock & roll albums. We feel that this is un-Constitutional and un-American.
As an alternative to these government-supported programs (designed to keep you docile and ignorant), Barking Pumpkin is pleased to provide stimulating digital audio entertainment for those of you who have outgrown the ordinary.
The language and concepts contained herein are GUARANTEED NOT TO CAUSE ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE PLACE WHERE THE GUY WITH THE HORNS AND THE POINTED STICK CONDUCTS HIS BUSINESS.
This guarantee is as real as the threats of the video fundamentalists who use attacks on rock music in their attempt to transform America into a nation of check-mailing nincompoops (in the name of Jesus Christ).
If there is a hell, its fires wait for them, not us.