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Firstly, I apologize if this is the wrong forum.
And secondly, I'll get straight to my point:
I'm creating a campaign world for my own group's personal use. In doing so, I've encountered a bit of a problem with the cosmology of the planes. What I'm trying to avoid is the idea that a bunch of different "heavens," "hells," and other aligned planes are floating around out there. I want the idea of an extraplanar realm to be special and unique, and I'm really trying to keep the number of them down while maintaining a place in the world for every creature in the Bestiary and Bestiary II.
What I'm trying to avoid, in other words, is the idea that there's a LG heaven where the archons live, a CG heaven where the azatas live, a NG heaven where the angels live, another NG heaven where the agathions live, a LE hell where the devils live, a CE hell where the demons (and qlippoth) live, a NE hell where the daemons live, a LN plane where the inevitables live, a CN plane where the proteans live, a N realm where the aeons live, and four elemental planes where elementals and genies live.
That's a lot of planes.
I've created this thread for the purpose of petitioning the boards for ideas as to how to implement some of the extraplanar races without creating a bunch of extra heavens, hells, and extraplanar realms. Here's what I've got so far...
The Empyreal Realms consist of Mount Celestia, and the Heavens which surround the mountain. A body of free-willed angels rule the celestial plane from Mount Celestia. The LG archons literally exist to serve the ruling class of angels, and act as the executors of angelic will.
The Infernal Realms consist of the Old Hells, where unorganized masses of demons spawn and roam, and the Endless City, a "surface" layer of hell which the devils built on top of it. The devils are known to enslave and employ demons as living weapons. The inevetables will likely be constructs of devilish deisgn, created to enforce pacts and contracts throughout the multiverse, which "turned" on their masters a'la the classic "I, Robot" plot device. Beneath the Old Hells is the Abyss, where the qlippoth plot the death of demon- and mortal-kind.
Paralell to the material plane are the Territories, where fey live. The azata protect and guide the good fey, and act as "gods" for fey-kind. Evil fey worship and are led by outsiders like barghests and night hags.
The aeons are largely absent in the world for plot reasons, but presumably roam the astral plane and the void of space.
(Sorry that ran so long!)
With all that in mind, what I'm missing (and requesting ideas for!) are places in the world for the following:
Agathions
Daemons
Proteans
Or: ideas better than the existing ones described above.
Also, elementals & genies are bugging me a bit as well, though I could include the classic elemental planes. And maybe throw the proteans into the elemental planes as well?
Please share your thoughts, and thanks for your time!
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A lot of "planes" can be co opted as being part of the material world.
Plane of fire=biggest volcano
Plane of air=a traveling storm like a continual hurricane
Earth and water are just that the earth and water. These "elements" can be just that elements of the real world.
Having a 'good' heaven and an 'evil' hell is just fine and simple. All good centers around one plane and set of gods and all evil centers around another plane and set of gods.
If you want to get crazy you can have things that are not actual planes but just fanciful earths. Like Hell is just hollow earth and good beings literally live in the clouds. If you are making your own cosmology you can do flat earth, earth within a hollow earth etc.
The fey can come from a dreamland or can just live deep in primeval forests.
Most importantly I recommend that you do not stress too much about fitting in everything. Some creatures can just be shoehorned into an existing location without too much fuss. Your players will not notice the difference and you will enjoy the extra time to focus on developing the important part of your world.
A variation on karkon's "material elementals" theme: Animism and the "spirit world".
Have a spirit world (i.e. the ethereal plane) that overlays the normal world. In here, you have all sorts of spirits. Spirits of the dead that linger on (your usual ghosts, spectres, wraiths and other incorporeal undead) as well as elemental spirits that are linked to places and phenomenons on the material plane. Wherever there's a river on the material plane, there's a water spirit, stones and rocks have earth spirits, and so on.
These elemental spirits would be elementals and genies, depending on the place's importance.
The spirits have their own world, but can also enter ours under certain circumstances: If they're near the focus of their existence (near the rock or volcano or body of water they represent), they can move over or at least influence the surroundings (manifestation would probably be impossible unless something significant is happening or they're powerful), and spellcasters can use magic to summon them.
Fey would either be at home in both worlds or one particular. A dryad is a tree spirit, so if she's close to her tree she can pass over into the normal world.
Your idea of a hell where devils live on top of demons and then a separate abyss with the qlippoth goes against what you want: Less planes. I'd say the Abyss IS the lower part of your "hell", and the infernal city is build on top of that. Devils live in the city, qlippoth in the lowest reaches of the Abbyss, and demons in between, surging against both the devils above and the demons below.
The daemons could inhabit the city's outskirts/suburbs, or even the wastelands beyond.
In this case, the city would be perfectly ordered and law rules with a brutal fist. The Abyss is an eternal battlefield as the demons fight the devils, the qlippoth, and each other. And beyond the city, you have utter misery and nothingness.
I'd arrange the celestial heaven like this: There is the mountain, the peak of which is where the angels sit and rule. On the slopes of the mountain, you'll find the archons, arranged according to their status. Around the mountain, you have pastoral fields where the agathions dwell, and which eventually turns into a wild forest where you'll find the azatas.
The whole thing - heaven, earth (alongside the spirit realm), and hell are basically on different "elevations", separated by the astral plane. In this no man's land, you have many isles of civilisation and war, as it is here where many fights between good and evil are fought (others are fought in hell or heaven, or earth, of course).
All this is more or less a bubble, enclosed in the Void, a maelstrom of possibility where nothing is of duration. The home of the Proteans, eager to burst the bubble to free its contents from the static perfection that is its prison.
For all intents and purposes, the darker reaches of the spirit world take over the shadow plane's responsibilities (home of nightshades, shadows, and place shadow magic connects to).
Alternatively, you could avoid getting bogged down by the details. Have scholars and sages who offer up conflicting theories about whence these various beings come, but ultimately it is beyond mortal ken to completely grasp these alternate realities.
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Your idea of a hell where devils live on top of demons and then a separate abyss with the qlippoth goes against what you want: Less planes. I'd say the Abyss IS the lower part of your "hell", and the infernal city is build on top of that. Devils live in the city, qlippoth in the lowest reaches of the Abbyss, and demons in between, surging against both the devils above and the demons below.
It might not have come across well, but this is the idea. It's all one "hell," with different regions (as on Earth).
Have a spirit world (i.e. the ethereal plane) that overlays the normal world. In here, you have all sorts of spirits. Spirits of the dead that linger on (your usual ghosts, spectres, wraiths and other incorporeal undead) as well as elemental spirits that are linked to places and phenomenons on the material plane. Wherever there's a river on the material plane, there's a water spirit, stones and rocks have earth spirits, and so on.
These elemental spirits would be elementals and genies, depending on the place's importance.
This is a great idea for addressing the elemental planes. I like it. Maybe the daemons could dwell there as well. Daemons could simply be spirits of evil.
So that's elementals and daemons taken care of.
Proteans occupying the "void" is problematic for campaign-specific plot reasons, but it's not a terrible idea.
Agathions, though... still no clue. I'm reluctant to staple a third, unrelated celestial race (agathions) onto the celestial realm. The beastial natures of the race say "spirit world" to me, but the azatas are already established there. Maybe they simply live in those remote regions not "civilized" by the fey...
Agathions aren't wild animals really. If you want wild, you want azatas.
Agathions have animal aspects, but I see that more as a personification of the positive ideals related to these animals in fable. Vulpinals have fox features because they are "cunning foxes", an embodiment of intelligence as something positive, something that lets you overcome wickedness even if you're not stronger than it.
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Alternatively, you could avoid getting bogged down by the details. Have scholars and sages who offer up conflicting theories about whence these various beings come, but ultimately it is beyond mortal ken to completely grasp these alternate realities.
This is the kind of approach I'd go for. The planes are often describe as having the characteristics of a "place" where you can "go" and where "things" can "live". That isn't necessarily the case, however - the planes can be conceptual "spaces" - kind of like cyberspace - and when the PCs go there or interact with planar creatures, they are simply interacting with concepts and forces that are basically incomprehensible, and the experience gets processed in the only way that makes sense to their minds.
I think that I'll go the other direction with this.
The complexity add's to the mistery. I have at least 36 inner planes going not counting transitory's like shadow or mirror.
I think that I'll go the other direction with this.
The complexity add's to the mistery. I have at least 36 inner planes going not counting transitory's like shadow or mirror.
I'll grant that complexity will make it difficult for the players to fathom all the mysteries of the planes. But I would argue that if you, as a Game Master and (presumably!) a human, can define all the planes, including rules associated with them and their inhabitants, etc., then they cannot be as "other-worldly" (or godlike, or supernatural, or mysterious, etc) as they should be. Your mileage may vary.
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I'll grant that complexity will make it difficult for the players to fathom all the mysteries of the planes. But I would argue that if you, as a Game Master and (presumably!) a human, can define all the planes, including rules associated with them and their inhabitants, etc., then they cannot be as "other-worldly" (or godlike, or supernatural, or mysterious, etc) as they should be. Your mileage may vary.
The easy solution to that is to simply throw away consistency and make planar experiences different every time. Hey, it's the planes- you can get away with anything! :)
I've done that a few times with my players when they poke their noses into weird places: you describe a person or locale in terms of X and then every time they try to interact with it you provide responses in terms of Y and then give them pitying looks when they try to figure out if they heard you wrong the first time. You've got to be careful not to be too frustrating, though.
Wolfie and Iro here have a great idea. The physical world (what Pathfinder calls the Material Plane) is subject to all kinds of rules and laws, like gravity and time (though magic can make you ignore the rules in certain circumstances, making you obey its own rules instead). But who says that the domain of the gods has to do that? They probably obey different laws altogether. Divine laws. Laws you just cannot comprehend if you're a mortal. That's why the mind makes up their own explanation for this stuff when you find yourself in those realms. They're not always the same explanations for everyone.
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In sci-fi, places like this are called 'psychoreactive,' and they conform to the expectations of the strongest-willed individuals present. In the individual homes of the gods, that would be the god-in-charge, and the endless gray nothing of the astral plane might become more and more 'elysian' looking as one approaches the Elysian Fields. You can spend an eternity exploring said Elysian Fields, which are the afterlife for people who follow the appropriate dieties, but it's still just one little pocket carved out of the endless astral plane. Ditto the hells. You notice the temperature rise, and the smell of sulphur in the 'air' before it hoves into view. It's shadowy over there, lit by reddish light, from the volcanic hellforges. We shant be going any closer, it's already risky enough to have come this close.
Over here, the astral gets darker, and we find shadowy reflections of cities and forests on the material plane, all twisted and cruel and surreal, like something Tim Burton would have designed, but less cartoony and more sad, somehow. The only bright spots, that shadowy figures huddle around, like bums around burning trash cans, are flickering images of pale colors, the visible manifestations of the dreams of mortals in the world beyond, which the shadow creatures paw at desparately, trying to touch and taste the creative energies of the living, and only rarely succeeding in doing so, twisting the happy dreams into nightmares.
I don't know how you would take this but, how about "heavens" are the highest unreachable heights of the stratosphere of your world, whereas Hell might be the planet core, the demons could come from the plane of nightmares, the quilipoth (sp) might reside in the realm of madness (akin to the far realm). The proteans, inevitables, aeons could be all extraterrestrials from other planets, whereas, azatas and agathions would be "mortal" heralds of the gods in the world.
Tinkering with the cosmology can be a pain when it comes to how these things interact with spells.
In a homebrew system you really can do anything " the sky the limit"
I never liked the traditional layout of the universe and have altered a few basics in my home campaign.
I am a fan of the dark tower series by steve king , and have always loved the concept that portals to other realms lye just below the surface of our own world. because of the bronze age nature of my game I don't feel the need to go into any great detail about the inhabitants of these strange lands.
all the elemental planes can be accessed from the prime material, while the aligned planes are all interior accessed through the dream plane ( the opposite of the material plane) . most of the planes are found in out of the way portals and hidden paths.
best advice with additional realities is " keep it vague"