I have to say that while I was recently burning off some accrued credit at RPGNow I specifically avoided grabbing low-priced PDFs. After some thought on the issue I've realized why.
1) I automatically think that it's low quality in art, production and writing. A quick 2 bucks.
2) Failing that, I automatically think that it's going to be an extremely low page count. 2 bucks for 5 pages is seriously overpriced for me.
3) It's going to wind up in a larger collection, polished and corrected in about a year anyway if it's any good.
We have been taught in this society that you get what you pay for. The best deal isn't the cheapest or most expensive. My overall expectations are to pay about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost I would see on the product if it were printed.
Yes, you have been selling for 10 years... YOU
You do know that 3PP talk to each other about sales and business practices?
I'm sure there isn't a whole lot of variation because it is a smaller market but still.. you can't base an entire industry (well, entire niche industry) off of YOUR sales.
No but I can base them off of trends and other information from other 3PP, which I have.
Especially when there are a pretty decent number of reviews on here with 3 stars.
Here's a little hint, we have a product call Modern Day Map which has a rating of 2.5. That product is the BEST selling product EVER with LPJ Design. It out sold next 10 best selling products combined by a number of 5 to 1. Here is another little fact, that producy cost me $200 to make and broke even after two months on the market back in 2002. That is right, that product is nearly 10 years old and still sells consistantly well. Once an a while I always think about taking it down and retiring it, then I look at the sales of it over the previous three months on it and change my mind. Don't assume "quality" equals "profitable".
I would absolutely agree with the idea of a minimum "price = quality" threshold. For MP3s and phone apps, the fact that these marketplaces were invented with the 99 cent or otherwise low price point from more or less the start of that marketplace in question means that there's no pre-established perception of what something like that should cost.
For game materials, though, we've got over 3 decades of price expectation to get over, even including inflation. And traditionally, gaming products have not been that inexpensive.
To a certain extent, this is true. However, for Adamant, there can be other factors, as the author of the post pointed out. I picked up a few Adamant products when I was getting into Pathfinder during the March sale he mentions in the write-up (specifically, Tome of Secrets and three Fell Beasts supplements). After some time in review, however, while the "quality" of the products was decent, the mechanics of many of the items were nearly unusable- requiring so many "fixes" that I may as well have simply created the material myself.
Many in the business know might be willing to blame price perceptions, sometimes it's also a matter of overcoming a history as well. Had I known about the "app pricing" experiment, I might have ventured to try a different line, but there's a good chance I still would have been wary because of my past experience. Super Genius Games, on the other hand, has consistently proven to be of high quality and low expense, so I continue to pick up their products.
Once an a while I always think about taking it down and retiring it, then I look at the sales of it over the previous three months on it and change my mind. Don't assume "quality" equals "profitable".
Just from curiosity, is there some reason besides "it's old and not selling like it used to" to take digital products down from sales sites like DriveThru? I've seen OGL based stuff I was interested in or wanting to refer other people to pulled down by some companies, and wondered if there was some financial penalty to keeping older stuff up.
Chief Technical Officer
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Once an a while I always think about taking it down and retiring it, then I look at the sales of it over the previous three months on it and change my mind. Don't assume "quality" equals "profitable".Just from curiosity, is there some reason besides "it's old and not selling like it used to" to take digital products down from sales sites like DriveThru? I've seen OGL based stuff I was interested in or wanting to refer other people to pulled down by some companies, and wondered if there was some financial penalty to keeping older stuff up.
I don't know about other places, but there's no penalty whatsoever at paizo.com.
Really? I am honestly a little surprised Luven's hasn't overcome it in sales.It's getting there. I expect it will surpass Arcane Magic late this year, even if the sales slow down.
And it really is getting there. Today we sold our 300th Luven's PDF!
And it really is getting there. Today we sold our 300th Luven's PDF!Really? I am honestly a little surprised Luven's hasn't overcome it in sales.It's getting there. I expect it will surpass Arcane Magic late this year, even if the sales slow down.
Fricken' sweet!
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Here's a little hint, we have a product call Modern Day Map which has a rating of 2.5. That product is the BEST selling product EVER with LPJ Design. It out sold next 10 best selling products combined by a number of 5 to 1. Here is another little fact, that producy cost me $200 to make and broke even after two months on the market back in 2002. That is right, that product is nearly 10 years old and still sells consistantly well. Once an a while I always think about taking it down and retiring it, then I look at the sales of it over the previous three months on it and change my mind. Don't assume "quality" equals "profitable".
I just checked it out on drivethru, wow, 30 maps for only 3.99? No wonder it sells, actually, I'm thinking of picking it up really soon.
Very, very timely discussion for me. I have some projects in mind that could turn into products and I am trying to decide if I want to take the shot at starting my own small 3pp or if I want to pitch my ideas to an (or even multiple) established 3pp. And, given at least one project could be a product that would be feasible for release as multiple products, should I consider episodic releases or stick to a single, larger release. I appreciate the candor of the publishers who have chosen to share their insights on this thread.
If you are a first time 3PP, you HAVE to releases a free or low cost product as your first product. The traction to get new customers to purchase can be quite difficult. Free removes that hurdle entirely and low cost reduces it greatly. I normally give away "fluff" material for free for what every new setting I am creating as a teaser. If they like the fluff, sell the crush should be easier. There is a great book by Paco Underhill called Why We Buy that might interest people who are interested in this topic of pricing and selling.
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As a consumer, I have no problem with the idea of a publisher selling a chapter or small part of a product for a couple of bucks, and later collecting the various parts into a larger (perhaps print) product.
If I like the product, I'll support it by buying the parts and, if a printed edition of the collected product is released, I'll buy that, too.
As a consumer, I have no problem with the idea of a publisher selling a chapter or small part of a product for a couple of bucks, and later collecting the various parts into a larger (perhaps print) product.
If I like the product, I'll support it by buying the parts and, if a printed edition of the collected product is released, I'll buy that, too.
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming will be doing exactly that with our Phantasia Zoologica line. Currently available is the .pdf of #1: Dogs, but we're working on complining it with #2 and #3, Horses and Cats respectively, and releasing them together in print.
As a consumer, I have no problem with the idea of a publisher selling a chapter or small part of a product for a couple of bucks, and later collecting the various parts into a larger (perhaps print) product.
If I like the product, I'll support it by buying the parts and, if a printed edition of the collected product is released, I'll buy that, too.
this is exactly what we at JBE did with our Book of the river nations PDF series. The PDFs have already paid for the print run, making the print run not a scary scenario. The same was also true with our d66 Compendium book for Traveller. Since it is working so well, it is our business model for the forseeable future.
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Yes, you have been selling for 10 years... YOU
I'm sure there isn't a whole lot of variation because it is a smaller market but still.. you can't base an entire industry (well, entire niche industry) off of YOUR sales.
Especially when there are a pretty decent number of reviews on here with 3 stars.
Eureka, a brilliant supplement from the Gnomestew folks, seems to support LMPjr007's assertion:
Engine Publishing has been posting an ongoing count of their 3PP sales figures out in the open, and print in general has outstripped .pdf sales by a wide margin.
I'm a fierce advocate for low-priced PDFs, both from the standpoint of individual publishers and for the health of the market. However, $1.99 sounds cheap even to me. Fistful of Denarii (eleven classes, plus feats) I priced at $2.39. I'd expect core books to run in the $4.99 to $10.99 range, depending on art, length, quality, etc. While in my mind, PDFs should aways be priced against FREE alternatives, I think most lengthy role-playing products are worth more than $1.99 in convenience and enjoyment. That is, from a buyer standpoint.
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I've read some good posts recently from authors arguing that the relatively new idea of electronic versions of novels being super cheap (i.e. a few dollars) is terrible and injures the industry as a whole. They point out that the mp3 model doesn't work because writing a single song is far less work than writing a novel--as someone who's done both, I have to agree. Instead, they compare writing a novel to writing an album, which even at 99 cents per song is still costing you 10-12 bucks. The argument continues by saying that when you drive the price of art down too far, you can no longer sustain any artists except for those with massive name cred and distribution. Simultaneously, you devalue the art itself--if a painting only cost you two dollars, do you value it as much as if you paid $2000?
I think a lot of the same ideas apply to gaming.
What I think it shows that just like the music industry, the publishing industry is not immune to sweeping changes arising from the digital revolution. The cheap novellas are an entrance route to a new breed of self-publishers and you can't compare access to them in the same way as marketing a Salvatore novel. The present model doesn't support writing artists save for those few that acheive "massive name cred and distribution", the Salvatores, the Knaacks, and the Hickmans so to speak.
To refer to your last example. It is highly doubtful that I will ever be able to spare the income to buy a multi-thousand dollar painting. On the other hand, I could afford a subscription to a site like Digital Blasphemy which makes a whole crop of original artwork available for a modest fee. But the existence of Digital Blasphemy by itself isn't going to drive the Soho Galleries out of existence. Instead I believe that both Digital Blasphemy and the self publishers of these mini-novels are creating new markets and that's usually a good thing.
Check the prices for new video games. The high-end games been fairly expensive all along, and that industry seems to be ok.Only at the very top end, I think. The biggest titles keep breaking records but the B and C level titles hit the shelves and are quickly discounted. In-store sales of "casual games" have tanked, hit first by "app-priced" games on iTunes and such and lately (hardest) by free gaming on Facebook.
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Yeah this is a bit of a problem for me. I don't want app games. I want robust full games... but I usually can't afford the top of the line hits and big titles. Indeed most of my favorite genres in video games constantly hit the 'B' and 'C' rating in the over all video game market place. As such many of the games that I would love to own at a decent price are being squeezed out by designing firms either looking for the massive price block buster sellers, or the 'churn them out quick and cheap' low end crap.
It doesn't help that my most up to date system is the wii -- about the end run of 'cheap and quick' 'no thought' games.
Check the prices for new video games. The high-end games been fairly expensive all along, and that industry seems to be ok.Only at the very top end, I think. The biggest titles keep breaking records but the B and C level titles hit the shelves and are quickly discounted. In-store sales of "casual games" have tanked, hit first by "app-priced" games on iTunes and such and lately (hardest) by free gaming on Facebook.
MYeah this is a bit of a problem for me. I don't want app games. I want robust full games... but I usually can't afford the top of the line hits and big titles. Indeed most of my favorite genres in video games constantly hit the 'B' and 'C' rating in the over all video game market place. As such many of the games that I would love to own at a decent price are being squeezed out by designing firms either looking for the massive price block buster sellers, or the 'churn them out quick and cheap' low end crap.
It doesn't help that my most up to date system is the wii -- about the end run of 'cheap and quick' 'no thought' games.
My system is a PS2 - they don't really make games for it anymore, but I enjoy the ones I've got for it.
Here's a big curve-ball: I avoid higher-priced .pdfs because I'm a backward dinosaur with nothing but a slow dial-up connection available most of the time. I love the 4 Winds stuff I have bought, but I have to shy away from the bigger books. I still haven't gotten the chance to actually download the copy of Luven's I bought. :3
With a faster connection, I'd definitely go for the bigger more expensive releases though since an increased rate of the smaller releases would nickel and dime my money and time to death. I think that's what's happened to the digital market in general over the past decade as content delivery has become that much faster for more people. Now that people can't afford to spend their attention on the everything that's more feasibly available, they'd rather turn their attention to more of what they like.
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Here's a big curve-ball: I avoid higher-priced .pdfs because I'm a backward dinosaur with nothing but a slow dial-up connection available most of the time. I love the 4 Winds stuff I have bought, but I have to shy away from the bigger books. I still haven't gotten the chance to actually download the copy of Luven's I bought. :3
With a faster connection, I'd definitely go for the bigger more expensive releases though since an increased rate of the smaller releases would nickel and dime my money and time to death. I think that's what's happened to the digital market in general over the past decade as content delivery has become that much faster for more people. Now that people can't afford to spend their attention on the everything that's more feasibly available, they'd rather turn their attention to more of what they like.
Do what a friend of mine does. Leave the computer on when you sleep or when you are at work. It can download at those times. Though it has been so long since I used dial up, I forget just how long it takes to DL the typical MB, SGG stuff is mostly under 1 MB, many of the other stuff ranges from 1MB to 20MB with only a few over that. Least from what I recall from memory. If you have a question about file size just ask, I or I am sure someone else would be happy to let you know.
Do what a friend of mine does. Leave the computer on when you sleep or when you are at work. It can download at those times. Though it has been so long since I used dial up, I forget just how long it takes to DL the typical MB, SGG stuff is mostly under 1 MB, many of the other stuff ranges from 1MB to 20MB with only a few over that. Least from what I recall from memory. If you have a question about file size just ask, I or I am sure someone else would be happy to let you know.
Right, I can handle up to around 12MB at a time if I'm feeling really lucky, but I can count on a little network instability on anything over that. It wasn't too much of an issue around about a year ago, but now a ton of newer .pdfs are really pushing up that size bar. I also used to be able to get my laptop up to a hotspot every once in a while, but not much anymore. That's all my own issues though.
As a corollary to what I said before, I'm a sucker for bundles of smaller .pdfs. I look at one of those and see I'm getting a bargain, but if they were all compiled into a single pdf, I wouldn't see it that way as much.
I always find these topics fascinating. I'm not a publisher or writer, but I met a lot over the years (from big names to little guys). I tend to think that the industry as a whole would be better served by more openness on the part of companies about what is going on and why. Honesty about the size and growth/decline of the industry would go a long way to getting support from the customers who love their hobby.
No problem, if you want to know about file sizes about some stuff. Just ask and if I own it I will look up the file and let you know. Might help you decided what to buy if you know what you can DL that way.
Thanks. As mentioned previously in this thread, all the reviews you've done have already been a lot of help: to the point without a bunch of "my game" philosophy clunking up your commentary. I've definitely picked up some things based on your reactions. I'm looking forward to see if you'll have something to say on the...101 0th-level spells, I think it's called?
I always find these topics fascinating. I'm not a publisher or writer, but I met a lot over the years (from big names to little guys). I tend to think that the industry as a whole would be better served by more openness on the part of companies about what is going on and why. Honesty about the size and growth/decline of the industry would go a long way to getting support from the customers who love their hobby.
Right, even just fans of indie and niche press need to take at least a bit more of an active role in supporting what they like in order for the publishing to survive. Regarding a more mainstream publisher, this thread would be full of endless winging about rising costs, but everyone here is sharing what info they can on purchasing habits, trends and paths to the future.
I do think there's still plenty of impulse value to be mined for a cheap admission price on certain product types. I barely ever use premade monsters, but I'll pick up quick monster sups for a couple bucks even just to keep up on what new ideas are floating around out there. The previously mentioned dog supplement from 4 Winds is also the sort of vanilla niche product I'll cherish whether I ever use it in a game or not.
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No problem, if you want to know about file sizes about some stuff. Just ask and if I own it I will look up the file and let you know. Might help you decided what to buy if you know what you can DL that way.Thanks. As mentioned previously in this thread, all the reviews you've done have already been a lot of help: to the point without a bunch of "my game" philosophy clunking up your commentary. I've definitely picked up some things based on your reactions. I'm looking forward to see if you'll have something to say on the...101 0th-level spells, I think it's called?
I have a review in the works, should be up this week. The short is it gets very high marks, either a 4.5 or 5 star. One of the better in the series honestly. So I would pick recommend it, if you liked the rest of the series.
*sway* I actually discovered a copy of Luven's had mysteriously appeared on my computer at some point, so I must have DLed it in a chunk of other things when I had a chance and totally forgot.
It's a seriously cool book though. On the topic, could it have been split into smaller cheaper releases? Yeah, sure, but I think some of the commentary and less thrilling, but charming items would have been lost if the delivery would have favored more of a bullet-point item feature rather than chapters presenting huge walls of items for the reader to poke through.
On the other hand, Super-genius seems to be doing fine, financially, with their releases and I like their presentation also. You see the cream of Kragnar's collection presented piece by piece. The Kragnar format is just a bit different of a flavor from Luven's.
Anyhow, I think the quality of these products trumps general arguments about either format over the other. As much as the market changes, good publishers will tend to be able to sell good content.
*sway* I actually discovered a copy of Luven's had mysteriously appeared on my computer at some point, so I must have DLed it in a chunk of other things when I had a chance and totally forgot.
It's a seriously cool book though. On the topic, could it have been split into smaller cheaper releases? Yeah, sure, but I think some of the commentary and less thrilling, but charming items would have been lost if the delivery would have favored more of a bullet-point item feature rather than chapters presenting huge walls of items for the reader to poke through.
On the other hand, Super-genius seems to be doing fine, financially, with their releases and I like their presentation also. You see the cream of Kragnar's collection presented piece by piece. The Kragnar format is just a bit different of a flavor from Luven's.
Anyhow, I think the quality of these products trumps general arguments about either format over the other. As much as the market changes, good publishers will tend to be able to sell good content.
Very glad that you like Luven's! We're proud of all of our books, but that one especially. And that fact that it is our best selling product (in terms of how frequently we sell a copy) makes it all the better. :D