I'm playing a rogue in a pathfinder module campaign, and I have been thinking about multiclassing into alchemist. My character is an acrobatics/stealth-oriented rogue, and I want to give him a bit more skill in using poisons which he (as a former pest-hunter) should be familiar with. However, despite sharing some skills and a liking for poisons, the two classes don't work quite well - and I would like to use a hybrid prestige class. Is there one, or do I need to homebrew?
If there is no class at present, my concept is of a rogue using alchemy to boost his/her skills as a "shortcut" - using extracts, mutagens and other tricks in order to improve upon their thieving abilities. Here are some of the mechanical basics I have in mind:
BAB: medium (both classes have it)
HD: d8 (again, common to both)
Skills: 6+int bonus
Saves: good fortitude (from all the self-experimentation and augmentation) and reflex, poor will
When it comes to abilities, it's a bit trickier. I'm basing it very loosely on the arcane trickster, in that it has a bit of both. I'm interested in keeping partial SA and rogue talents progression - 3 or 4 SA dice and 3 rogue skills, for example. Trap sense probably wouldn't increase, but uncanny dodge may. On the alchemy side, bomb damage wouldn't advance. I'm considering if possibly levels won't count for bombs/day as well, although I'm interested in tricks such as smoke bombs, flashbangs or the like. Mutagen and special bomb discoveries would advance, as would extracts - at rate between full and 7/10 . Overall, if we go by the trickster, arcane magic is stronger than alchemy so full or near-full progression should be ok.
So, would that work (as in, be balanced) and what other abilities can I add? I thought about advancing poison resistance and maybe a capstone to show the character's body has advanced beyond regular abilities - perhaps their anatomy changed to the point it protects against critical hits, or they get a permanent bonus to a physical attribute.
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The poison master is a secretive archetype, embodying assassins and brewers that prefer to slay their opponents with stealth and deadly poisons.
Skills: Bluff(Cha), Stealth(Dex)
Basic Flask: Poison Master bomb damage does not progress. Bombs do 1d6+Intelligence Modifier fire damage.
Poison Resistance: You gain Poison Resistance +2 at level 1. This bonus increases by 2 at every even level until level 8, at which point you gain immunity to all poisons
Replaces: Throw Anything
Venomous Weapons: All Poison Masters can brew special corrosive poisons which can be applied to their weapons to increase the damage dealt by them. At the start of the day, when a Poison Master prepares his extracts, he may create a number of vials of Alchemical Poison equal to his Poison Master level + his Intelligence modifier. Alchemical Poison can be applied to a single weapon as a swift action and, once applied, must be used before the end of your turn, or else it loses its potency and becomes useless. Attacks with an envenomed weapon deal an extra 1d6 points of damage at 1st level, and another 1d6 at every odd level (10d6 at level 19). This damage is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Replaces: Bomb
Sneak Attack: You gain sneak attack damage as a rogue. Your effective rogue level for determining your damage is equal to 1/2 your Poison Master level.
New Discovery: Virulent Venom -- If a creature is hit with an envenomed weapon, that creature takes additional damage at the start of its next turn equal to the venom's damage dice. You must be at least 6th level in order to learn this discovery.
Here's my take on it. It should work fine. I don't know if you're interested or not, but enjoy anyways :P
I might give it a try at some point, but right now I'm more interested in a prestige class. I already have at least 4 rogue levels, so I can't be a pure alchie ;) .
BTW, regarding prerequisites, I would likely require at least 5-6 ranks in various rogue skills such as acrobatics and stealth, access to alchemical extracts and swift alchemy, and possibly a good fortitude save such as +4 or higher. Any comments?
I'm playing a rogue in a pathfinder module campaign, and I have been thinking about multiclassing into alchemist. My character is an acrobatics/stealth-oriented rogue, and I want to give him a bit more skill in using poisons which he (as a former pest-hunter) should be familiar with.
If all you want is poison use, take a level of Assassin. That complements Rogue nicely.
I'm not certain, reading your post, whether you're after alchemist abilities or are just discussing how a rogue might use them. What - exactly - is the concept you're trying to fit into these classes?
MI
I'm not too keen on taking assassin levels due to the alignment restriction and stipulation and needing disguise ranks. It imposes roleplaying restrictions that do not fit my character, and don't necessarily have anything to do with the skill he wants to acquire. Alchemist levels work with rogue, and fit the concept much better.
Basically, I am looking for a rogue-friendly prestige class that advances alchemist levels - something like a rogue/ninja/spy group who use extracts and mutagens to augment their stealth. It would be a hybrid class similar to the arcane trickster, but advancing some aspects of alchemy rather than magic.
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I'm not too keen on taking assassin levels due to the alignment restriction and stipulation and needing disguise ranks. It imposes roleplaying restrictions that do not fit my character, and don't necessarily have anything to do with the skill he wants to acquire. Alchemist levels work with rogue, and fit the concept much better.
Basically, I am looking for a rogue-friendly prestige class that advances alchemist levels - something like a rogue/ninja/spy group who use extracts and mutagens to augment their stealth. It would be a hybrid class similar to the arcane trickster, but advancing some aspects of alchemy rather than magic.
I think rogue and alchemist can work together quite nicely, yeah you don't get everything every level, but that's the cost of multiclassing. If you don't think they'll work as is, if I were you I'd try to wait until Ultimate Magic comes out. It sounds like they've got a bunch of new mutagens, discoveries and extracts coming.
If you don't want to wait, consider, smoke bombs grant concealment. With a feat you can sneak attack through concealment so it doesn't bother you, with another you could get blind-fighting. And as you said, the poison is nice for a rogue. I had a 10th lvl Alchemist/Rogue worked out that I think would be really cool to play sometime, but haven't had the chance yet. But with it, I started him with the poisoner archetype for rogue, which you obviously haven't.
Basically, I am looking for a rogue-friendly prestige class that advances alchemist levels - something like a rogue/ninja/spy group who use extracts and mutagens to augment their stealth. It would be a hybrid class similar to the arcane trickster, but advancing some aspects of alchemy rather than magic.
Sort of an alchemical thief, a fellow who instead of picking a lock pours acid on it, instead of sneaking soundlessly through a room uncorks a vial of sound-dissipating perfume? Do you have any existing fictional examples of this sort of concept?
I ask not to denigrate the concept - I think it's promising - but because I don't have a strong idea of the concept you're after.
Maybe asking a different question would be useful: what are you looking for that could not be achieved by alternating alchemy / rogue levels? Is it strictly the alchemical extract advancement?
The largest stumbling block I see is that both classes need lots of skill points for subsidiary abilities and the abilities that are important are different.
Still, as I said, it's an interesting concept and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it.
MI
That would be part of it, but I'd place the focus on the thief using alchemical elixirs to boost her own physical and mental ability. Imagine a burglar who "dopes" herself to become unnaturally limber in order to crawl down a chimney, a soporific perfume to make sure the guards aren't particularly alert, or an polymorphine concentrate in order to assume the face of the lady of the house. She's not quite as flashy or specialized as the iconic alchemist, and her interest in the art is purely practical. On the other hand, she is not just a master thief who buys some tricks from the local lab, but a thief who is also an alchemist in her own right. Imagine a rogue with a few "batman belts" of potions, bombs, and gods know what else that she made herself for when things get tricky. The concept would basically be quite close to the arcane trickster, but using alchemical augmentation instead of magic.
What I am looking in the PrC is basically slightly better synergy than just alternating levels. I'm thinking of what other abilities that might tie in with the concept such as fast drawing of the potions/gadjets, resistance to various dangers a rogue might face (poisons, possibly traps) or extended durations of extracts used on herself, but for now I don't have many great ideas.
For now, my character is a classical halfling rogue, only with a penchant for using a light crossbow as his weapon of choice - he's agile, hardy and smart, but not especially strong or fond of fistfights. As a former ratcatcher he's well-versed in alchemy (poisonmaking in particular), although not to the exclusion of the more typical rogue skills (as in, he's a regular rogue, not a poisoner). However, he's had to adapt to fighting bigger "vermin" and he realizes he may need some extra tricks up his sleeve. He's not exactly wizard material, and even less likely to be a messenger of the divine, so alchemy would be his "crutch" of choice.
Hi again, I'm working on a rogue/alchemist PrC, loosely based on the arcane trickster. I am not sure how to format a table here, so I'm writing the abilities in test only. Let me know what you think (or if I need to move it to another part of the forum):
Mist Shade
HD: d8
BAB: medium
SP: 6+int modifier/level
Saves : fort, ref good, will poor
Requirements: 6 ranks in craft (alchemy), 4 ranks each in acrobatics and escape artist, +2d6 sneak attack, swift alchemy, knowledge of at least 10 extract formulas with (self) effects.
class skills: acrobatics, climb, disable device, disguise, escape artist, knowledge (dungeoneering, arcana, local) heal, stealth, spellcraft, perception, swim
Alchemy: On all levels except for 4 and 8, a Mist Shade gains new extract slots as if he received a level in alchemist. He does not learn any new extract formulas.
Tools of distraction: the Mist shade can add half his class level (rounded down) to his alchemist level to determine how many bombs he can use per day. The bomb damage does not increase.
Sneak attack: on levels 1,4,7 and 10 the Mist Shade's sneak attack damage improves by +1d6
Tricks of the Trade: at even levels the Mist shade's knowledge of how to blend the alchemical arts (this would include some alchemist abilities related to mutagens or non-damaging grenades, some rogue abilities, and various other specialties such as:
- Virulent blow: bonus to a poison's DC if it is delivered via sneak attack:
- Mist devil: the MS can ignore the effects of his own bombs (i.e. the rogue ignores concealment from smoke bombs or can move normally through solid fog)
- Fortifying mutagen: when under the effects of a mutagen, the MS can reroll any failed fortitude save against disease or poison
- basically, these would be abilities that allow further customization. Anything from adding to poison resistance or uncanny dodge, to improving your bombs (not for damage) or poison, or various other things.
Improptu sneak attack: as his body becomes more and more augmented (some would say corrupted) by the alchemical aids he uses, an experienced mist shade can occasionally force himself to strike through angles or motions that seem impossible. At level 4, he can once per day declare a ranged or melee attack to be a sneak attack even if it doesn't meet the normal conditions. At level 9, he can do that twice per day.
Iron nerves, skittish fingers: At level 5, a mist shade can use an extract, throw a bomb or drink a potion as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. He can use this ability 3 times per day at 5th level and one additional time per every two levels thereafter, to a maximum of 5 times per day at 9th level.
Blurring out of sight: at level 8, the mist shade can become hasted (as the spell) as a free action, with the added exception that if he moves more than 5 feet this round, he counts as having concealment against all ranged attacks that require an attack roll. He can be under these effects for a number of rounds per day equal to his level, to a maximum of 10 rounds. These rounds do not need to be consecutive
Mastery of Self: at level 10, the Mist Shade's body becomes truly exceptional due to the longtime exposure to various alchemical substances. He can choose one of the below abilities:
- Improved Flesh: a permanent +2 bonus to any physical score
- Elixir of Everlasting Youth: the alchemist gets +1 HP per character level, and becomes immune to the harmful effects of aging. Bonuses still accrue, and the Mist Shade can still die from an old age
- Protean Form: immunity to critical hits, sneak attack or poison. The alchemist can also use alter self as a supernatural ability (with the MS level counting as caster level) at will; it is activated as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity
- Venomous Glands: the MS's secretions and blood becomes highly poisonous, and his canines elongate like a snake's. The alchemist gains a bite attack doing 1d4 damage (for medium alchemists, those of different size scale it accordingly) and it and any other natural attacks he has count as poisoned with black adder venom, giant wasp venom, large scorpion venom or enhanced drow sleep poison. The DC to resist the poison is 15+ the MS's constitution bonus (minimum of 1). The MS chooses the poison upon gaining this ability and cannot change it. The alchemist can coat a weapon with this venom as a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, and when exposed to air it loses its potency within 5 rounds. The alchemist's blood is also venomous, and any creature that causes the alchemist damage with a bite attack counts as contracting the venom.
And now Paizo's lack of multiclass-friendly class, prestige classes, and feats has reared its ugly head. I have to give it to WotC, at least most of their prestige classes and feats (and even most of their classes) were multiclass friendly.
Creative Director
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And now Paizo's lack of multiclass-friendly class, prestige classes, and feats has reared its ugly head. I have to give it to WotC, at least most of their prestige classes and feats (and even most of their classes) were multiclass friendly.
I'm not sure this is as big a problem as you make it out to be, since one of our primary design goals for Pathfinder was to make staying in one class more attractive. Downplaying the benefits for multiclassing is a natural "by-product" of this.
An alchemist version of the arcane trickster is a neat idea for a prestige class, though, and it's precisely the right way to go about making a normally sub-optimal prestige class like a rogue/alchemist more attractive to number crunching.
As I said, I was basing it loosely on the trickster. The problem with alchemy is that it is basically three things - extracts, discoveries, and bombs, and I didn't quite want the class to have all three. At first, I wanted to have discoveries and rogue talents as separate abilities (4 discoveries and 3 talents), but it seemed a bit too much.
What do you think of the class, mechanically? Does it need a little more unique stuff, is it too good, too bad, or too mundane?
I have to say I've never been a fan of multi-classing. I am also not a fan of prestige classes, I think they are underpowered when compared to staying core for 20 levels.
With that said, what I AM in favor of is flavor. Making a less optimized character in the name of flavor is just fine and should be encouraged. I would only multi-class or take prestige class levels for flavor. You shouldn't have to come up with your own prestige class just to accomplish a more powerful class combination. The GM can tweak encounters and adventures to compensate for any lack of power the party, actually I think it's his responsibility, not that he should do that but he must.
I am playing a Cavalier in Kingmaker right now actually. I chose that class for flavor, not it's melee prowess. If I wanted melee prowess I would have chosen Fighter, hands down.
*wonders where the rogue and the alchemist don't work well together*
I rather like your PrC, one thing that I was thinking that you might want to do something like this, you can increase bomb damage every few levels, OR. you can choose a new bomb mod, (creator's choice not player's) that way, you can still have some choice to increase the utility of the alchemist's bomb ability.
@ The Indescribable: for the PrC I'm putting the focus on self-augmentation rather than bombs, which is why it doesn't advance bomb damage. On the other hand, that could be a "Tricks of the Trade" ability, allowing the class to count for bomb damage as well as bombs/day.
BTW, is there a code that I could use to create a table, or is the list code the best I can do in terms of formatting?
Don't know, and if you don't want added bomb damage then allow it to give you the different types of bombs, like smoke bomb or precise bomb.
Which is what I said in my first post but, I don't think I was very clear.
I really like the PrC as well, but I do think that "Iron nerves, skittish fingers" and "Blurring out of Sight" are quite powerful abilities. I'm not quite sure i'm reading it right - but does the alchemist extracts/spells advance during the PrC? If not, I think the two abilities are entirely reasonable, but if he does advance in spellcasting I tihnk the PrC may be a little too good as it stands.
But I like the idea a lot - it's actually almost "iconic" - a kind of Batman concept. I'm not too fond of the name, but I think naming is always hard, and I don't have anything better to offer :)
I really like the PrC as well, but I do think that "Iron nerves, skittish fingers" and "Blurring out of Sight" are quite powerful abilities. I'm not quite sure i'm reading it right - but does the alchemist extracts/spells advance during the PrC? If not, I think the two abilities are entirely reasonable, but if he does advance in spellcasting I tihnk the PrC may be a little too good as it stands.
Extracts advance for 8 out of 10 levels. The above abilities were "modified" abilities the arcane trickster possesses - tricky spell (spontaneous silent/still spell several times per day) and invisible thief (improved invisibility for several rounds).
Basically, I am looking for a rogue-friendly prestige class that advances alchemist levels - something like a rogue/ninja/spy group who use extracts and mutagens to augment their stealth. It would be a hybrid class similar to the arcane trickster, but advancing some aspects of alchemy rather than magic.Sort of an alchemical thief, a fellow who instead of picking a lock pours acid on it, instead of sneaking soundlessly through a room uncorks a vial of sound-dissipating perfume? Do you have any existing fictional examples of this sort of concept?
I ask not to denigrate the concept - I think it's promising - but because I don't have a strong idea of the concept you're after.
Maybe asking a different question would be useful: what are you looking for that could not be achieved by alternating alchemy / rogue levels? Is it strictly the alchemical extract advancement?
The largest stumbling block I see is that both classes need lots of skill points for subsidiary abilities and the abilities that are important are different.
Still, as I said, it's an interesting concept and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it.
MI
Actually about the perfume.. I have a fictional example..
http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Ichiya_Wanderlei_Kotobuki
If poison use is what you want then take the Rogue Poisoner Archetype. You swap out Trap finding and Trap Sense to gain the use poison ability so you can't poison yourself by accident. As well you gain a bonus of 1/2 your level to craft alchemy for poisons and can modify poison to change their type from inhaled to contact and such.
If poison use is what you want then take the Rogue Poisoner Archetype. You swap out Trap finding and Trap Sense to gain the use poison ability so you can't poison yourself by accident. As well you gain a bonus of 1/2 your level to craft alchemy for poisons and can modify poison to change their type from inhaled to contact and such.
I know of it, but I am not a big fan of it as it removes one of the rogue's signature abilities - trapfinding. I don't necessarily see how the two archetypes clash, and would much prefer if poison use was a feat. I also found it odd how it exchanges a scaling ability (trapfinding) for a static one.
Anyway, I may work on listing more tricks of the trade later on. I appreciate the feedback!
I like the concept but I would like to point that this should be on the Homebrew Forum. Just saying.
First lets look at the class table:
1 Tools of Distraction, Sneak Attack +1d6, Alchemy
2 Trick of the Trade,
3
4 Trick of the Trade, Sneak Attack +2d6, Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day
5 Iron Nerves and Skittish Fingers
6 Trick of the Trade,
7 Sneak Attack +3d6
8 Trick of the Trade, Blurring out of Sight
9 Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day
10 Trick of the Trade, Mastery of Self, Sneak Attack +4d6
Problems I can see:
- At first glance the class seems to be a little on the heavy side. It gains 4d6 of sneak attack, 8 levels of extracts and abilities at almost all levels. But since it is made to make multiclassing easier I think it can afford to be somewhat strong. One thing I would recommend is reduncing the levels where he gets new extract slots to 7, not gaining them at levels 4, 7 and 10. That would bring it closer to other PrCs that do the caster/something multiclass. And yes, I know the alchemist is not exactly a caster class, but it is close enough.
- He gets to advance his extracts progression, but doesn't gain new extracts? Why? Seems odd. If you take the above advice to reduce the progression of new slots maybe you can allow them to continue learning new extracts at every level where they gain slots.
- Move Impromptu Sneak Attack from level 4 to 3, to close the empty level and because level 4 has too many things going at the same time.
Other than that the class looks good.
@ Mercenario: I specifically mentioned the fact that it doesn't get new extracts known at a new level, just like how wizards don't learn new spells when they level up in a prestige class. I think it was self-explanatory but wanted to make sure it is mentioned.
Hey! You might be interested in today's blog about new archetypes from Ultimate magic:
Hmm, handy as a single class, but I'm not sure if my character concept revolves exactly around the things it substitutes. Good to know there are more archetypes coming, I find them quite interesting (by and large).
@ Mercenario: I specifically mentioned the fact that it doesn't get new extracts known at a new level, just like how wizards don't learn new spells when they level up in a prestige class. I think it was self-explanatory but wanted to make sure it is mentioned.
They don't? I honestly did not know that... And I'm not telling my DM that.
According to the FAQs I've seen, no, they don't. Also, read the description of arcane casting PrCs here - they mention that in those I've seen.
Sorcerers get new spells, obviously, since they can't get them otherwise. They don't normally progress the bloodline, though, so they lose out on the spells IT gets them.
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Hmm, handy as a single class, but I'm not sure if my character concept revolves exactly around the things it substitutes. Good to know there are more archetypes coming, I find them quite interesting (by and large).
Huh? The only thing it substitutes out is bombs. I thought you were more focused on Extracts and Mutagens? And it gets Sneak Attack to boot. Honestly, this thread was the first thing I thought of looking at it.
And now Paizo's lack of multiclass-friendly class, prestige classes, and feats has reared its ugly head. I have to give it to WotC, at least most of their prestige classes and feats (and even most of their classes) were multiclass friendly.I'm not sure this is as big a problem as you make it out to be, since one of our primary design goals for Pathfinder was to make staying in one class more attractive. Downplaying the benefits for multiclassing is a natural "by-product" of this.
An alchemist version of the arcane trickster is a neat idea for a prestige class, though, and it's precisely the right way to go about making a normally sub-optimal prestige class like a rogue/alchemist more attractive to number crunching.
That's what I mean, then, we need to see more "hybrid" PrC or something, then.
My players love the multiclass feats introduced in WotC 3.5 They were able to multiclass two classes together, take one feat that combined the levels for two spotlight abilities of each class, and they were set to go however they wanted with no regret.
They also do enjoy hybrid prestige classes like Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, Cerebremanceer, Fochlucan Lyrist and Eldritch Theurge, for example.
Though all of us agreed that making a Class ability-heavy and class level dependent makes it more liable to stick with a class from 1-20, sometimes my players want to make something beyond using an archetype that they can only really get with multiclassing. However, multiclassing seems to hurt. The lack of XP penalty does help, but we noticed the freedom of multiclassing was severely restricted with the new APG classes (and future Gunslinger, Magus, Samurai, and Ninja) than they were with the Core classes.
Not that WotC wasn't guilty of it either. The Spellthief, Warmage, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, and a number of other new classes of theirs did lack multiclass versatility severely, as well. I believe I remember seeing only ONE prestige class that actually was meant to combine with Spellthief, for example, but they never really caught up with all those new classes before they went kaput with 3.5
Personally, for such heavy restrictions of multiclassing, maybe hybrid PrC or multiclass feats for the new classes are in order to make them more appealing for different character types? Something to consider maybe?