I am running The Skinsaw Murders for a group of four players, two of whom are relatively new to gaming (my wife ran Burnt Offerings for the same group, with me as a player in addition to the others, and we've now switched roles).
Both of the new players are somewhat playing against type with their builds. One player took a pre-generated character, Kyra, and retooled her to fit her tastes (mainly just by dropping the Sun domain and replacing it with Fire). She is going for a cleric build that focuses on melee fighting, which is relatively easy to accommodate, and she's adjusting well to running a character that can help out her fellow party members but still do "her thing" - namely, slashing at things with scimitars.
The other new player is running a rogue, but absolutely refuses to engage things in melee, which makes getting in sneak attack damage difficult and is handicapping his ability to be as effective as his allies.
As a player, I rarely run rogues, and when I do, I skew more towards melee skirmish rather than ranged attacks. So I have a hard time coaching this player on how to be more effective in his role. So I was wondering if people can offer some general advice on how to play a rogue so as to actually deliver sneak attack damage with bowshots, and also how I as a GM can facilitate and encourage his playstyle.
He needs to put his skill points into stealth, and he also needs to maximize his movement, to stay away from the fray. (But also staying within 30' of his target!)
You as a GM should provide him plenty of areas to take cover, so he can hide behind the cover, pop out to make a sneak attack, and go hide again. However, you as a GM should also remember that while it's not your job to kill the PCs, it's your job to run the guys who want to kill the PCs. Meaning that 30' is plenty of ground to cover in a charge; i.e. your player will find himself in melee if he doesn't put some distance between himself and his target after his attack. He needs a backup tactic.
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Well, there are a couple of things. First, remember that Rogues get to add Sneak Attack damage to Flat-Footed opponents, not just ones he's flanking or are otherwise denied their Dex. Bonus. If he opens combat with a bow and beats at least one enemy with initiative, he can get a full round of sneak attacks right off the bat.
Another way is taking the Minor Magic -> Major Magic talent line, and choose Vanish and Grease. Vanish will get him temporary invisibility needed to set up Sneak Attacks, and enemies within the Grease area of effect are considered Flat-Footed (since they need to make Acrobatics checks to maintain their footing). You could also pick up Gravity Bow (again, with Major Magic), if you wanted to spend the talents on it, to increase your bow damage (2d6 for a Longbow).
The Sniper archetype from the APG will help you snipe enemies (duh), but other than that you're out of luck. Ranged Sneak Attacking with Rogues is hard. Just remember that, as a Rogue, you want to go first if you want Ranged Sneak Attacks, so Improved Initiative may be worth it (yes, archery rogues are feat-starved, but for sneak attack you can't beat it). Also, Manyshot is a nice feat, but since you don't apply sneak attack to it, it may or may not be worth it, depending on your viewpoint. Definitely pick up the Reactionary trait, though (+2 Trait Bonus to Initiative).
Feats like Point-Blank Shot are a MUST, because you need to be within 30 feet to get sneak attacks anyways. Weapon Focus is basically a necessity because of the low Rogue attack bonus. You may want to go Swashbuckler archetype as well just for the longbow proficiency, but you may not need it or care for it. You could also go Elf as your race, or Half-Elf with the racial proficiency variant.
*Edit: And don't forget Shadow Strike so you can get Sneak Attack damage against targets with concealment.
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The first thing that popped into my head? Use Magic Device + wands. You can potentially do sneak attacks to multiple enemies at round 1 via many magic missiles/rays (someone please confirm rule). After round 1? Forget it.
Another thing that I thought of is using range attacks to trip, disarm, and do other combat maneuvers at a penalty (-4, I believe). I am not sure where I read this, but I know it exists. Hopefully it's not tied to a specific class.
To some of the future posters who will look down on a range rogue, you're right, it is extremely ineffective, but it's this player's concept. The OP asks for advice to strengthen this player's needs, not to force this guy to play it "right". However, PWU, as a DM you should let him know that a rogue's range attack simply will do very little from mid to high levels. If he ever feels insignificant then, it'll be because he isn't taking full advantage of a rogue's combat potential. Lay it out to him so he understands.
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The first thing that popped into my head? Use Magic Device + wands. You can potentially do sneak attacks to multiple enemies at round 1 via many magic missiles/rays (someone please confirm rule). After round 1? Forget it.
Another thing that I thought of is using range attacks to trip, disarm, and do other combat maneuvers at a penalty (-4, I believe). I am not sure where I read this, but I know it exists. Hopefully it's not tied to a specific class.
To some of the future posters who will look down on a range rogue, you're right, it is extremely ineffective, but it's this player's concept. The OP asks for advice to strengthen this player's needs, not to force this guy to play it "right". However, PWU, as a DM you should let him know that a rogue's range attack simply will do very little from mid to high levels. If he ever feels insignificant then, it'll be because he isn't taking full advantage of a rogue's combat potential. Lay it out to him so he understands.
The general consensus is that Rays do apply sneak attack damage per ray. As for Magic Missile... there is a 500+ post thread dedicated to whether or not it gets Sneak Attack damage per missile, and whether or not it can be Intensified. Basically, ask your GM about it.
Also, Ranged Rogues can be effective... but only in short bursts. He specifically mentioned the bow, which is why I stayed away from Magic. Otherwise, I'd recommend Arcane Trickster. You get almost full Sneak Attack progression, and plenty of rays and ranged touch attacks (which are super accurate), not to mention invisibility and all sorts of goodies.
What about steering the player into a ranger or fighter with light armor and skills? Trying to snipe is really difficult in most situations, and requires loads of patience to be marginally effective.
Note: Magic missile doesn't require an attack roll, thus does not qualify for sneak attack unless using the arcane trickster cap-stone ability. Grease could allow you a sneak attack, but it involves getting out a wand, a UMD check, the creature to make the DC 13 save (or else it is prone and gets +4 to AC and is not flat-footed). Then you have to draw a ranged weapon, and IF the creature decides to move, you get a chance to sneak attack. Ugh.
I would basically just explain to the player that ranged rogues are not very well supported in a system that involves a lot of melee combat (for a variety of logical reasons). If the players are OK with this, and willing to have the character contribute a shot here and there, go for it. My guess is that the player would have more fun playing a rapid-shotting ranger, or zen archer more then a sniper.
Note: There is a sniper rogue-archetype, and also an item called sniper goggles in the APG.
3.5 had a bunch of, basically, trick shot feats. Think of the Robin Hood moves (Errol Flynn) like pinning a cloak to a wall, or shooting a sword out of someone's hand.
Then, write up things like 'ranged disarm' as a rogue trick.
OR, take two levels of ranger
OR, invest in Improved Initiative
OR, watch The Professional with Natalie Portman. Look at the work Leon does to get into position. Rogue archer works well, but you need to set it up. Climb up to the rooftop, hide, and then you can start sniping.
OR, take a level of alchemist, and start poisoning arrows
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Here is a cool thing that hasn't been mentioned and that you might want to point out to your player.
With the Sniper archetype and the Far Shot feat, the worst penalty you will have to range is -5. This is because the accuracy ability halves all penalties from range increment, and Far Shot makes the penalty -1 for each range increment. That means he can attack effectively at crazy ranges. Add the Sniper Goggles, and he can apply sneak attack damage from any of those crazy ranges.
What it really awesome about this is if you are fighting outdoors, in relative open areas, and have access to spells like Dimension Door, the sniper can move to a distant area in view and just pick off bad guys. I am not sure if pure distance will make the target flat-footed. Personally, if the target can't spot the sniper, the sniper has concealment. Thus, if the target misses his perception check to spot the sniper standing on top of a clock tower a couple hundred feet away, he is flat-footed. Just remember that the DC to spot the sniper increases by 1 for every 10 feet. Also, if the target is engaged in melee, they would be distracted and have another +5 to the DC to spot. If the sniper can move 150 feet away, that is a +20 to the DC! Most bad guys wont be spotting the Sniper.
Make sure he has ranks in Acrobatics, Climb, Perception and Use Magic Device. Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (Engineering) could be used to help him pick out sniper spots. Scrolls or wands of Dimension Door would be a great investment. The distance enhancement on a bow would be a must if he is able to move 200 feet or more easily for most combats.
The Sniper Goggles are in the APG, and cost 20,000. That is a pretty expensive item for him to save up for but also too expensive for him to be given at lower levels. You might want to consider having them be a reward for a quest, or you could just wait until an appropriate level to give it out as treasure. Of course, the party as a whole could save up to buy him a pair provided they can find someone willing to sell them the goggles.
At lower levels, I wouldn't worry about him not dealing sneak attack damage. There are so many things a rogue can do, that as long as he is utilizing other class abilities and skills he should still be an asset to the party.
lol, if Sneak Attack applied to Ray of Enfeeblement, it'd be SOOOOO terribly broken. 11d6 Strength Damage???It was really really funny.
You can get sneak attack damage on any spell that requires an attack roll. In this case, the spell does the usual thing, and you add negative energy damage for your sneak, halved if the target makes their save.
Hi all,
Would like to pose a question about levelling and character design....
I want to create a witch /??? character based on the Queen out of Snow White and the Seven (Severed?) Dwarves
Manipulative but secretive , regal, power freak with arrogant tendencies,possibly vain
Anyway currently my character is a Witch2 with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 15
int 19
Wis 14
Char 15
-Cat familiar (Raphael)-black "knowitall" cat
Patron Transformation
Cauldron and slumber hexes
Magical talent Spark
Main weapon Poisoned darts
Additional:has Harrow deck performer and cartography profession.
Could you suggest a level progession, toyinying with the idea of multiclassing into oracle or sorcerer?
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Hi all,
Would like to pose a question about levelling and character design....
I want to create a witch /??? character based on the Queen out of Snow White and the Seven (Severed?) Dwarves
Manipulative but secretive , regal, power freak with arrogant tendencies,possibly vain
Anyway currently my character is a Witch2 with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 15
int 19
Wis 14
Char 15
-Cat familiar (Raphael)-black "knowitall" cat
Patron Transformation
Cauldron and slumber hexes
Magical talent Spark
Main weapon Poisoned darts
Additional:has Harrow deck performer and cartography profession.
Could you suggest a level progession, toyinying with the idea of multiclassing into oracle or sorcerer?
Morri, perhaps you are new to the boards (I see that you only have 2 posts, both of which you insert your inquiry in a thread that is really meant for somebody else), but the best way to get relevant responses to your question is to START YOUR OWN THREAD (I recommend under the ADVICE section). It is not cool to thread jack a thread from somebody else.
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I second some of the recommendations above, especially:
- minor magic, major magic
Vanish is an excellent choice for major magic. As for minor magic, acid splash is a good choice for range sneak attack. Keep in mind that since a rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once, choice wisely.
- hide in plain sight
You can get that from the Shadow Dancer prestige class and it has no limit.
- sniper goggles
I never knew this item existed, but it's a must a range combat rogue.
Or he can get a ring of invisibility, which makes him invisible at all times.
While all this sounds cool, the catch is that you're attacking EVERY OTHER round (attack, invisible/hide, attack, etc). And once you gain more than 1 attack/turn, only your first arrow does sneak attack damage (you become visible after your first attack). If there is a melee rogue (especially a dual wield one) in the party, the difference in dmg output will quickly become apparent. Make sure your player is aware of this.
offtopic question:Hi all, Would like to pose a question about levelling and character design....
I want to create a witch /??? character based on the Queen out of Snow White and the Seven (Severed?) Dwarves
Manipulative but secretive , regal, power freak with arrogant tendencies,possibly vain
Anyway currently my character is a Witch2 with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 15
int 19
Wis 14
Char 15
-Cat familiar (Raphael)-black "knowitall" cat
Patron Transformation
Cauldron and slumber hexes
Magical talent Spark
Main weapon Poisoned darts
Additional:has Harrow deck performer and cartography profession.
Could you suggest a level progession, toyinying with the idea of multiclassing into oracle or sorcerer?
Go to Advice section.
Beside the forum search spot, in the upper right hand corner it will show ADD NEW THREAD
Clik there.
Copy your post in message area.
Type in a title. Something like " Snow White Witch, Please Help. "
Submit Post and wait for the wonderful responces you will be sure to get!
Hope this helps!
Greg
Actually, the title of the thread does somewhat imply 'post your problem here and we'll try to help'.
Actually, the title of the thread does somewhat imply 'post your problem here and we'll try to help'.
I agree. But the first post doesn't support that. Hence, my putting it in spoilers as offtopic. I never want someone to think our boards are unhelpful.
ASIDE: Who made you Chief Cook and Bottlewasher? Is there an electoral process? :P
Greg
EDIT: added :P to show this was a jesting question. :P
Actually, the title of the thread does somewhat imply 'post your problem here and we'll try to help'.I agree. But the first post doesn't support that. Hence, my putting it in spoilers as offtopic. I never want someone to think our boards are unhelpful.
ASIDE: Who made you Chief Cook and Bottlewasher? Is there an electoral process? :P
Greg
EDIT: added :P to show this was a jesting question. :P
My children elected me household Chief Cook and Bottlewasher. (If you were moving in you could have a vote :) Or take over the position.)
Oh, and when they were toddlers, I really could have used the 6 arms :)
My children elected me household Chief Cook and Bottlewasher. (If you were moving in you could have a vote :) Or take over the position.)
Oh, and when they were toddlers, I really could have used the 6 arms :)
I think I will use a rogue magic talent and ...
Being a Mom, I am certain you have seen this ability used during bottle washing time.
Greg
My children elected me household Chief Cook and Bottlewasher. (If you were moving in you could have a vote :) Or take over the position.)
Oh, and when they were toddlers, I really could have used the 6 arms :)
I think I will use a rogue magic talent and ...
Being a Mom, I am certain you have seen this ability used during bottle washing time.
Greg
Absolutely. Selective deafness is a common one as well.
Hmm, what?
Greg
Hmm, what?
Greg
YOU HEARD ME!
Eeeep!
* rapidly scurries down the beach vestigial wings flapping*
Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can't take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Greg
Eeeep! 1d20-1
* rapidly scurries down the beach vestigial wings flapping*
** spoiler omitted **
Greg
Now, why doesn't it work like that on my kids?
*shrugs* No vestigial wings? Live too far from a beach? Improved Iron Will? Advanced Rogue talent Slippery Mind? Campaign trait to resist Mom's Wrath? Just plain luck on their part?
One never knows.
I blame other people.
Greg
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*shrugs* No vestigial wings? Live too far from a beach? Improved Iron Will? Advanced Rogue talent Slippery Mind? Campaign trait to resist Mom's Wrath? Just plain luck on their part?
Magic item that cast Protection from Mom 3 times/day? Some kind of group synergy bonus to will saves? Steel Soul? Favored enemy (mom)?
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Magic item that cast Protection from Mom 3 times/day? Some kind of group synergy bonus to will saves? Steel Soul? Favored enemy (mom)?*shrugs* No vestigial wings? Live too far from a beach? Improved Iron Will? Advanced Rogue talent Slippery Mind? Campaign trait to resist Mom's Wrath? Just plain luck on their part?
Favored Enemy (Mom) has my vote. That line wins the thread.
Many thanks to all you posters who pitched in with ideas! I'm going to see if this player is interested in retroactively taking the Sniper archetype; somehow I don't think it will bother him too much, since he can still buy ranks in Perception and seems to prefer the instantaneous benefit of the Trap Spotter rogue talent to the inherent bonuses from trap sense and trapfinding.
I think, with a little preparation, that I can help him by pointing out where good vantage points for shooting are located in various areas. I had considered allowing him to make a Perception check - or maybe Knowledge (dungeoneering) is more appropriate? - to determine where the suitable hiding spots in a given area are located each time a new encounter begins, but that mechanic could take some fine tuning to avoid brokenness - plus, I want him to remember to look for the spots without telling him how best to play his character, because he isn't going to learn on his own if I hold his hand the entire time.
I doubt steering him into ranger or fighter is going to help - he's getting a good amount of juice out of rogue talents, which seem to be his favorite feature of the class. While fighter bonus feats might make up for that to some degree, he won't be able to get some of the unique abilities the talents offer him if he switches. Additionally, the ranger and fighter classes are already represented in the group by the two more experienced players, and he's going to be overshadowed heavily by them if he switches roles at this point.
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I had considered allowing him to make a Perception check - or maybe Knowledge (dungeoneering) is more appropriate? - to determine where the suitable hiding spots in a given area are located each time a new encounter begins, but that mechanic could take some fine tuning to avoid brokenness - plus, I want him to remember to look for the spots without telling him how best to play his character, because he isn't going to learn on his own if I hold his hand the entire time.
There is potential to inject some flavor into what is normally consider straight forward skills.
Knowledge (Nature)/Survival - spot hideout outdoor
Knowledge (Dungeoning/Engineering) - spot hideout underground/indoor
Knowledge (Plane/Arcana) - spot hideout in a different plane
I actually like this idea a lot. Let me know how it works out! And good luck to your player.
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The character cannot be good at everything. If the player focuses on the skill-monkey aspect of the Rogue, it is quite natural that he cannot be as efficient in a fight as combat-focused characters.
That said, he does not operate in a vacuum. A caster in the group can provide him with opportunities to apply his sneak attack damage to foes by using the proper spells. They need to work together on the spells the caster will choose/prepare.
I believe that the player should not focus too much on making sneak attack powerful, as he will not be able to use it that often. Being able to move easily on the battlefield to make the most of being a ranged attacker is more important IMO. Levitation, Spider Climb and Fly will all help him stay out of many enemies' reach (at least at low levels) while still staying near the action. That last point is essential, as many encounters happen in close quarters where a ranged attacker is at quite a disadvantage.