Hey folks. In my current gaming group, some seem to think that the Alchemist in the party is overpowered. I helped build the character, but I have to admit I'm a little on the fence on the issue. I think perhaps the primary issue is that the other characters in the group are not living up to their full potential. The alchemist is not fully optimized, but I tend to think that the others in the group are optimized even less. The primary concern seems to be the bombs, what with them targeting touch AC, doing better (and more reliable) damage than the Rogue's sneak attack, and bypassing DR (since they're fire damage). Add that with the fact that, given a few rounds to self-buff, she can have an AC better than the Sword-and-board fighter in the party, I can somewhat understand where they're coming from.
The Alchemist in question is a Tiefling, level 6 (as is the rest of the party) with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Craft Wonderous Items as her feats. Discoveries thus far are Feral Mutagen, Precise Bombs, and Explosive Bombs. Character was built with a 25-point buy (again, as was the rest of the party), so Dex and Int are both 18+ at this point. Her tentative plan is to go into the Master Chemist PrC at 8th (STR is currently 14, up to 18 with a STR-based mutagen). Gear is at or below level-appropriate, and she does use both Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Items to make items for the party as a whole.
So I'd like to get some opinions thrown in here. Do you think the Alchemist in general, or this build specifically, is overpowered?
Ok now I see how the total package seems great --
But think about this -- how many rounds does she use buffing?
Then take her DPR and divide it by the total number of round she's in combat including the buffing.
The bombs are also only once per round at this stage for 3d6+4(int 18) damage -- which shouldn't be that amazing -- I mean 3d6+4 is about equal to 14.5 damage, and the her splash damage is only going to be 7 with a save for half.
Can have better and *does* have better aren't always the same thing -- and I can't really say more without more information about the rest of the party.
Tiefling is quite a good race for an alchemist, altough it helps the defense more than offense.
Bombs have a slight nova affect, a lot of damage, but you can't keep it up for long. That's if you go for throwing as many bombs as possible in a round.
A few tips to disadvantage the alchemist.
Fast encounters, don't lit him buff himself.
Fire resistant/immune monsters, bombs get useless.
lots of monsters that do not group together, but try to flank the group. The alchemist can't target two ennemies at the same time and risks to attack his friends.
Also, Master Chemist isn't a powerful PrC, especially regarding bombs. I think it will all even out if the group take a few good choices. Not necessarly optimizing, but that general direction.
Also overpowering other is only a problem if they feel like playing in your shadow, perhaps the alchemist should play a little more combat controlling, rather than pure damage output. Not an optimal choice for an alchemist tough.
Hey folks. In my current gaming group, some seem to think that the Alchemist in the party is overpowered. I helped build the character, but I have to admit I'm a little on the fence on the issue. I think perhaps the primary issue is that the other characters in the group are not living up to their full potential. The alchemist is not fully optimized, but I tend to think that the others in the group are optimized even less. The primary concern seems to be the bombs, what with them targeting touch AC, doing better (and more reliable) damage than the Rogue's sneak attack, and bypassing DR (since they're fire damage). Add that with the fact that, given a few rounds to self-buff, she can have an AC better than the Sword-and-board fighter in the party, I can somewhat understand where they're coming from.
The Alchemist in question is a Tiefling, level 6 (as is the rest of the party) with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Craft Wonderous Items as her feats. Discoveries thus far are Feral Mutagen, Precise Bombs, and Explosive Bombs. Character was built with a 25-point buy (again, as was the rest of the party), so Dex and Int are both 18+ at this point. Her tentative plan is to go into the Master Chemist PrC at 8th (STR is currently 14, up to 18 with a STR-based mutagen). Gear is at or below level-appropriate, and she does use both Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Items to make items for the party as a whole.
So I'd like to get some opinions thrown in here. Do you think the Alchemist in general, or this build specifically, is overpowered?
Not in the slightest. For one, bombs can only be used a finite amounts of time per day (alch level+int), sneak attack is unlimited. Start tossing in fire creatures if the alchemist is being too effective with the bombs.
Secondly, how exactly is the alchemist gaining AC? I looked through all their abilities and the only way I see them getting AC is from the increased dex bonus and natural armor from mutagen. Which lasts one hour at that level. And takes an hour to brew another, plus you cant have multiple mutagens active or have multiple mutagens brewed.
If the +4 AC from the mutagen is putting your alchemist higher than a sword and board fighter, he needs to look at his character sheet and see what hes doing wrong. They have the same point build. Any other buff he's getting aside from the mutagen, the fighter can presumably get as well (deflection, natural armor, protection from *alignment*, etc)
Plus, if the alchemist uses the dex mutagen, his will save goes down by one (willpower drops by two). Guess what his weakest save is? Will save. So he's putting himself at a disadvantage by 'buffing' his AC with +dex.
If you are throwing lots of stuff with DR at the party and not giving them ways to bypass it aside from the alchemist bombs then that is your fault. Drop appropriate weapons in the adventure for them to use against the enemy.
As a GM, character is only as 'overpowered' as you let it become.
appolpgize if I missed it. but an alchemist has to take master craftsman I'n order to take craft wondrous item. so earliest level is 7. despite the potions but not really potions infusions the game doesn't consider them spell casters.
I've found when one class seems strong sometimes it's the type of opponents. players can sometimes get fixated on things and get tunnel vision and miss the big picture.
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Not in the slightest. For one, bombs can only be used a finite amounts of time per day (alch level+int), sneak attack is unlimited. Start tossing in fire creatures if the alchemist is being too effective with the bombs.
Definitely true. They can't bomb all day, though they do likely have several encounters worth at this point (their BAB making more than one attack per round unfeasible).
Secondly, how exactly is the alchemist gaining AC? I looked through all their abilities and the only way I see them getting AC is from the increased dex bonus and natural armor from mutagen. Which lasts one hour at...
You're forgetting Shield. It's on the Extract list and quite good for an Alchemist.
Dex 18 + Chain Shirt + Shield + mutagen = 24 to 26 AC depending on whether it's a Dex mutagen (and the Chain Shirt's Mithril) or not. And that's without any magic items. With, say, a +1 Chain Shirt and a Ring of Protection +1, that's potentially a 28. So yeah.
Now, that's only when using one of their Extracts...but it's very doable at least a couple of times a day.
It also requires at least two rounds of prep, though. So it's somewhat situational.
Secondly, how exactly is the alchemist gaining AC? I looked through all their abilities and the only way I see them getting AC is from the increased dex bonus and natural armor from mutagen.
Dex mutagen, plus either potions (crafted at 1/2 price) or extracts of Shield, Barkskin and/or Cat's Grace, all of which stack with each other.
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Dex mutagen, plus either potions (crafted at 1/2 price) or extracts of Shield, Barkskin and/or Cat's Grace, all of which stack with each other.
Cat's Grace is only semi-workable as an AC buff on a Dex 18 Alchemist (needs a Mithril Chain Shirt to work, and can't be comboed with Dex Mutagen), but you're spot on on Barkskin. That's up to 30 without trying too hard. Well, 28 ish anyway.
Cat's Grace is only semi-workable as an AC buff on a Dex 18 Alchemist (needs a Mithril Chain Shirt to work, and can't be comboed with Dex Mutagen), but you're spot on on Barkskin. That's up to 30 without trying too hard. Well, 28 ish anyway.
Dex mutagen, plus either potions (crafted at 1/2 price) or extracts of Shield, Barkskin and/or Cat's Grace, all of which stack with each other.
Cat's Grace does stack. Mutagen is an Alchemical bonus, Cat's Grace is Enhancement. And I believe she's actually wearing Leaf Armor... aha, okay so that's one thing missed I think, is the actual Max Dex bonus on the armor being worn. Needs to be double-checked at the very least.
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Cat's Grace does stack. Mutagen is an Alchemical bonus, Cat's Grace is Enhancement. And I believe she's actually wearing Leaf Armor... aha, okay so that's one thing missed I think, is the actual Max Dex bonus on the armor being worn. Needs to be double-checked at the very least.
Right. That's what I meant. They can be comboed, but to effectively do so for AC specifically, you need to be wearing less than the ideal amount of armor.
EDIT: I just checked, Leaf Armor has a max Dex bonus of +5, so not even one of Cat's Grace or Dex Mutagen will be fully effective, AC wise.
That calculates out at 26 with Barkskin, Shield, and Strength Mutagen, 27 if using Cat's Grace or Dex Mutagen. Not as bad as it could be, but still impressive.
Also, Barkskin and Mutagen only last an hour each, and Shield only 6 minutes, so this isn't an all-day kinda thing. And it takes three turns to set up.
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If your players alchemist is tougher than the fighter or rogue it's not a surprise to me. Out the door, with no-feats, and no efforts on the players parts to play tactically the alchemist is significantly better.
With fighter you have to make some basic choices and stick to them to make a solid character and you have to be knowledgeable enough to take advantage of power attack (or deadly aim as appropriate) when the situation makes sense.
Rogues *must* be played tactically and if you have other players who help you out they are vastly better. Without a regular source of flanking damage a rogue in combat is a 5th wheel on a car.
The alchemist can lob bombs and grab Xd6 points of damage every round, then he can take feral mutagen and have three solid attacks per round each of which is doing nearly as much damage as the generic sword and board fighter's main attack (possibly more depending on the build).
The fiddly bit is that fighters using power attack, cleave, vital strike, charging when they need to, etc, etc are a fair bit better at the business of putting the hurt on than the alchemist. Likewise rogues who have decent flanking, use appropriate feats (Finesse, TWF or as appropriate), are going to be much closer to the alchemist in power.
Secondly, how exactly is the alchemist gaining AC? I looked through all their abilities and the only way I see them getting AC is from the increased dex bonus and natural armor from mutagen.Dex mutagen, plus either potions (crafted at 1/2 price) or extracts of Shield, Barkskin and/or Cat's Grace, all of which stack with each other.
All of those are available as potions for anyone to use though, so if the alchemist is making use of potions (or extracts) to great effect, and the other players are not, then maybe they need to start looking into using potions as well.
If your players alchemist is tougher than the fighter or rogue it's not a surprise to me. Out the door, with no-feats, and no efforts on the players parts to play tactically the alchemist is significantly better.
With fighter you have to make some basic choices and stick to them to make a solid character and you have to be knowledgeable enough to take advantage of power attack (or deadly aim as appropriate) when the situation makes sense.
Rogues *must* be played tactically and if you have other players who help you out they are vastly better. Without a regular source of flanking damage a rogue in combat is a 5th wheel on a car.
The alchemist can lob bombs and grab Xd6 points of damage every round, then he can take feral mutagen and have three solid attacks per round each of which is doing nearly as much damage as the generic sword and board fighter's main attack (possibly more depending on the build).
The fiddly bit is that fighters using power attack, cleave, vital strike, charging when they need to, etc, etc are a fair bit better at the business of putting the hurt on than the alchemist. Likewise rogues who have decent flanking, use appropriate feats (Finesse, TWF or as appropriate), are going to be much closer to the alchemist in power.
Thats true if you have a DM who runs one or two encounters per ingame day, then everyone blows up with their most powerful spells and limited use abilities.
If you're talking about a DM who runs multiple (4+) encounters a day, then you'll see less of the willy-nilly bomb tossing and more tactical resource use.
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All of those are available as potions for anyone to use though, so if the alchemist is making use of potions (or extracts) to great effect, and the other players are not, then maybe they need to start looking into using potions as well.
Potions cost GP. Extracts do not, and are not comparable mechanically to Potions. They're basically just Spells with slightly different flavor.
And I don't think any casters get both Shield and Barkskin. Especially not both those and light armor. And certainly not as a Dex based class.
Which is really the key to Alchemists having high AC, they're a caster who specializes in self-buffing, with some good AC spells and Dex as a prime stat.
A bow-focused Cleric with the Plant Domain who specialized in self-buffing will likely do almost as well. In fact...
6th level: Dex 18 + Mithril Chain Shirt + Shield of Faith + Barkskin + Belt of Dex +2 (Since they don't get Cat's Grace and the two don't stack) =25 AC. Only slightly below what the Alchemist has. Heck, add in Magic Vestment or Protection from Evil (or both) and you're probably even exceeding the Alchemist.
It's just a build that's almost a given (or at least very common) with a ranged Alchemist and really rare for other classes.
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A bow-focused Cleric with the Plant Domain who specialized in self-buffing will likely do almost as well. In fact...6th level: Dex 18 + Mithril Chain Shirt + Shield of Faith + Barkskin + Belt of Dex +2 (Since they don't get Cat's Grace and the two don't stack) =25 AC. Only slightly below what the Alchemist has. Heck, add in Magic Vestment or Protection from Evil (or both) and you're probably even exceeding the Alchemist.
There's a couple of problems with this. First of all, the cleric has just tried stretched himself just to acquire barkskin, which he can us once a day. It's a nice buff, but the alchemist has the thing on his spell list and can do it all day with the potions he brews if he wants.
Belt of Dex is stretching it even further. The alchemist does not need a belt of dex to hit over twenty ac even at level 1. My melee alchy did it on his first adventuring day. The Protection from Evil from the oracle was just gravy on top.
Now that you mention it, Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil don't stack, since they both give a deflection bonus. That lowers the possible AC a couple of notches.
So, with those things scratched off from the list, you are looking at an ac of 22 something. That's nice, but it's not any more than the other classes. Notably less, actually, since you are likely not holding a sheld or having a heavier armor like the other classes. Even if you did take the Plant domain, barkskin would be available on level 3. And Magic Vestment even later, on level 5!
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Honestly, I cannot see a problem with alchemist. I don't know your player or their builds, but you hinted at them being less than optimal.
Any character built better will generally be more effective. That does not make that character's class broken. I get the feeling your players might feel the same way about a really well-built fighter... or, well a really well-built anything... maybe not a bard. A really well built bard would just make everyone awesome.
Is it just the damage/buffs that bother them? Ask if the alchemist is willing to allocate a discovery for party buffs. Honestly it's pretty awesome regardless. If the alchemist is outdamaging everyone, well I think that's a problem with their builds. A suboptimal build deals suboptimal damage, no way around it.
Besides, damage isn't king in a home game. Especially if you're a rogue, there are other places to shine.
The primary concern seems to be the bombs, what with them targeting touch AC, doing better (and more reliable) damage than the Rogue's sneak attack, and bypassing DR (since they're fire damage).
Rogues are horribly underpowered, so yes, the alchemist is going to be doing more damage.
Add that with the fact that, given a few rounds to self-buff, she can have an AC better than the Sword-and-board fighter in the party, I can somewhat understand where they're coming from.
Yup. ALchemists are reaaaly nasty when they're forewarned.
The Alchemist in question is a Tiefling, level 6 (as is the rest of the party) with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
-Standard alchemist built.
and Craft Wonderous Items as her feats.
bzzzt. The alchemist is not actually a caster and thus can't take craft wondrous item.
So I'd like to get some opinions thrown in here. Do you think the Alchemist in general, or this build specifically, is overpowered?
That build, no way. Bombs are where its at for alchemists, and feral mutagen is for full attacking in melee.
I'm wondering how he's getting that much damage out of bombs when he doesn't have swift bomb -- I mean come on... he's level 6 with 3d6+4 damage -- a wizard tosses more out at that point with fireball or a whole host of other spells.
And just how many extracts are you giving him time to pop before you hit the party?
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There's a couple of problems with this. First of all, the cleric has just tried stretched himself just to acquire barkskin, which he can us once a day. It's a nice buff, but the alchemist has the thing on his spell list and can do it all day with the potions he brews if he wants.
Belt of Dex is stretching it even further. The alchemist does not need a belt of dex to hit over twenty ac even at level 1. My melee alchy did it on his first adventuring day. The Protection from Evil from the oracle was just gravy on top.
Now that you mention it, Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil don't stack, since they both give a deflection bonus. That lowers the possible AC a couple of notches.
So, with those things scratched off from the list, you are looking at an ac of 22 something. That's nice, but it's not any more than the other classes. Notably less, actually, since you are likely not holding a sheld or having a heavier armor like the other classes. Even if you did take the Plant domain, barkskin would be available on level 3. And Magic Vestment even later, on level 5!
Well, the Alchemist mentioned was Level 6, so an equivalent level Cleric seemed only fair. And a Dex belt would be strange not to see on a Level 6 archer.
At 1st level the Alchemist can get 24 AC, while the Cleric is limited to 20 or so. More if we start going with a melee build with less Dex, heavier armor, and a shield.
On the other hand I can make a Wizard who equals that 24 AC, and gets to 26 around the same time, has the Alchemist pull ahead (by 2 AC) at 4th, but makes up for it with Mirror Image, Blur, and similar spells.
Which was my point really. Alchemists are effectively a self-buff specialized caster. Any such character will be impressive if given prep-time. Alchemists do it more easily (sibnce they're designed for it), but it's hardly unique to them.
The alchemist is not actually a caster and thus can't take craft wondrous item.
Do you have a reference for this? The only prerequisite for Crafting feats is a caster level, which the Alchemist has. There are also multiple references to magical ability in the descriptions of their abilities, and they are able to use Spell Trigger items. They don't cast spells, and thus cannot use Spell Completion items, but they're still casters.
Edit to add:
* I'm not the DM, I'm a fellow player who helped build the Alchemist in question.
* The character actually has an effective INT of 20 thanks to a headband, so most bombs are dealing 3d6+5, +1 from PBS, and 8 points of splash damage. With Explosive Bomb, there's also 10' splash radius and up to 5 squares excluded thanks to Precise Bomb (which doesn't have an asterisk, so can be combined with Explosive Bomb)
* I did in fact goof with the max dex bonus on the armor, so that's something that will have to be fixed. The DM has never prevented us from getting Mithral Chain Shirts from large cities when funds are available though, so it may be an option.
* Sure, Wizards can do more damage with a fireball or lightning bolt, but at this level you're looking at that happening 3-4 times per day, max. This Alchemist currently has 11 bombs per day.
The alchemist is not actually a caster and thus can't take craft wondrous item.Do you have a reference for this? The only prerequisite for Crafting feats is a caster level, which the Alchemist has.
This is incorrect -- the Alchemist specifically does not have a caster level.
As to the 8 points of splash -- that's 8 points... if nothing makes its save -- the DC of which is 18... at level 6 most monsters with a good ref save will have a +11ish... even the poor saves will be looking at about a +7... meaning a 50/50 chance of making it.
Now I'm not saying the bombs are useless -- of that the alchemist doesn't have some good stuff going for him... but unless you give him few encounters a day with lots of set up time he's going to waste time buffing, or run out of stuff to do by the last few encounters.
Secondly, how exactly is the alchemist gaining AC? I looked through all their abilities and the only way I see them getting AC is from the increased dex bonus and natural armor from mutagen.Dex mutagen, plus either potions (crafted at 1/2 price) or extracts of Shield, Barkskin and/or Cat's Grace, all of which stack with each other.
Don't forget that Shield can't be made into a potion, so for your Alchemist it's extract or wand only.
The bombs are also only once per round at this stage for 3d6+4(int 18) damage -- which shouldn't be that amazing -- I mean 3d6+4 is about equal to 14.5 damage, and the her splash damage is only going to be 7 with a save for half.
Yup. Then compare that with what, say, two-weapon fighter (widely considered to be a not especially optimal build) can do at level 6 with the same 25 point buy. It's just not even a contest.
I'm not saying the alchemist is bad or doesn't have several other strengths, but doing 14 damage a round at level 6 isn't anything to write home about.
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I'm not saying the alchemist is bad or doesn't have several other strengths, but doing 14 damage a round at level 6 isn't anything to write home about.
I know of a sorcerer build that gets you 5d4+9 damage with a burning hands. A burning hands. Those flow like water for 6th level sorcerors. Never mind the 6d6+10 fireball... The alchemist is not broken, though the Craft Feat is illegal RAW. Alchemists get potions as a bonus, and for that and the extracts they can treat alchemist level as a caster level, but note that alchemist does not actually get a caster level.
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Your Alchemist should maybe look at having the Infuse Extract and Combine Extract discoveries.
This will allow them to be able to provide party buffs by handing out their extracts to whoever needs it, plus as a 3rd level extract make a combined (Shield + Enlarge) extract for your 2handed fighter - I doubt your party will be complaining about damage output again.
The alchemist is not actually a caster and thus can't take craft wondrous item.Do you have a reference for this? The only prerequisite for Crafting feats is a caster level, which the Alchemist has. There are also multiple references to magical ability in the descriptions of their abilities, and they are able to use Spell Trigger items. They don't cast spells, and thus cannot use Spell Completion items, but they're still casters.
Edit to add:
* I'm not the DM, I'm a fellow player who helped build the Alchemist in question.
* The character actually has an effective INT of 20 thanks to a headband, so most bombs are dealing 3d6+5, +1 from PBS, and 8 points of splash damage. With Explosive Bomb, there's also 10' splash radius and up to 5 squares excluded thanks to Precise Bomb (which doesn't have an asterisk, so can be combined with Explosive Bomb)
* I did in fact goof with the max dex bonus on the armor, so that's something that will have to be fixed. The DM has never prevented us from getting Mithral Chain Shirts from large cities when funds are available though, so it may be an option.
* Sure, Wizards can do more damage with a fireball or lightning bolt, but at this level you're looking at that happening 3-4 times per day, max. This Alchemist currently has 11 bombs per day.
i think its under Alchemy(su) basically this is also why Alchemists cannot complete spell completion items like scrolls (or is it trigger i can never remember, but the ones that require you to actually cast the spell) because they do not actually cast.
The alchemist is not actually a caster and thus can't take craft wondrous item.Do you have a reference for this? The only prerequisite for Crafting feats is a caster level, which the Alchemist has.
Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spell she does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so)
-Mind you, i don't see anything WRONG with giving them craft wondrous. I think the problem is that your group is kind of unoptimized and its very hard to go wrong with an alchemist with point blank and precise shot.
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@ Dire Mongoose & Alorha
Just want to revisit a point in the main post here:
I think perhaps the primary issue is that the other characters in the group are not living up to their full potential. The alchemist is not fully optimized, but I tend to think that the others in the group are optimized even less.
It seems to me like a lot of folks on the forums make assumptions that that players are good at putting together characters and there are lots of players that simply don't do a good job at it. Maybe the groups I've played in are aberrations but I see a *lot* of characters that don't live up to the assumptions people put together on the forums. The people who use the forums for reference have a huge source of 'community know-how' that they just assume is used by everyone who plays and this simply isn't the case.
The alchemist, the summoner, the inquisitor, and a few of the other APG classes do a much better job of having a baseline of decent power for these typical non-forum junky players. The typical player being the ones I run into at PFS events who don't surf the forums for 'builds' and just put their character together on their own.
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The alchemist, the summoner, the inquisitor, and a few of the other APG classes do a much better job of having a baseline of decent power for these typical non-forum junky players. The typical player being the ones I run into at PFS events who don't surf the forums for 'builds' and just put their character together on their own.
Fair point, but the initial question is if the class is overpowered.
My response is the same - any overpowered feeling is the result of choices made by the other players, not a flaw in the class' design.Also, I'm pretty new to the forums, and my group never really uses them, I just tend to like talking rules. My group is relatively more experienced than most, true, but I'm not saying that the group in question here is awful, or need to change their evil ways, I'm just pointing out that player choices impact a class, and that the alchemist by itself is just fine.
You don't need to scope forums for builds to build well. You just have to see how rules interact. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but not everyone in the rules forum is getting ideas for builds. I do that on my own. I go to these forums to clear up gray areas in the rules.
Maybe you didn't mean that to be personal, if so, that's fine. Ignore my irrational defensiveness for what it is. We're all permitted some irrationality late at night. Also, Ogre, nothing against you, purely defensive.
/rant
Also I should add that suboptimal damage does not a poor build make. I've got 2 characters right now for whom DPR is irrelevant. I've got one (a sniper ninja) who will never be the best, but I knew what I was getting into. Still, DPR is not king, and we shouldn't fall into that trap
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Sorry, not trying to make a dig at anyone and I agree it's not all about the forums.
I just see many people who make characters who fall far short of what people here on the forums consider normal. Player 'competence' with regards to setup varies vastly from group to group.
I don't care much about DPR, but when the guy playing the fighter is doing 14 points damage and the guy playing the alchemist is doing 14 points of damage plus a laundry list of other things then the perception develops that it's overpowered.
I see this same exact issue come up in summoner threads for the same reasons. Not sure what the answer is, maybe make a fighter that comes pre-loaded with the right feats and power attacks by default *shrug*.
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I see this same exact issue come up in summoner threads for the same reasons. Not sure what the answer is, maybe make a fighter that comes pre-loaded with the right feats and power attacks by default *shrug*.
It's a tough problem. I've introduced a few people to the game, and I try to walk them through chracter creation and leveling as much as possible. I explain why a choice might not be the best for what they want a character to be. Not everyone has that though, and you do see some odd choices at cons.
I think all you can do is hope that the players learn from experience and figure out how to make the character they want.
That's the double-edged sword here. The freedom to create something that's uniquely yours, a character whose flaws and abilities are your making is also the freedom to fail at doing that.
Some classes are more noobie-friendly, though, as you said, and for those falling short of the design mark doesn't hurt as much. I'm not sure what could be done about this though, as the classes are actually pretty well-balanced overall.
Maybe take the new player's focus off damage. Especially if you're new to pen and paper I could see damage being king. The whole MMO DPS thing.
One of my favorite characters of all time, the one for whom this avatar is named, was a rogue worthless in combat. Pure con artist. I had a blast with her, but I'd never be the one dealing the most damage.
needs a Mithril Chain Shirt to work, and can't be comboed with Dex Mutagen
The dex mutagen is an alchemical bonus, which stacks with cats grace's enhancement bonus.
I guess the thing is, it's harder to run an Alchemist into the ground than a lot of other classes. You do get a lot of choices to customize, but a lot of "built-in" powers to make sure you don't just kinda spin your wheels.
Basically, what Ogre said.
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needs a Mithril Chain Shirt to work, and can't be comboed with Dex Mutagen
The dex mutagen is an alchemical bonus, which stacks with cats grace's enhancement bonus.
As mentioned above, I was referring to combining them for AC specifically, which doesn't work due to armor's maximum Dex. They'll combine and grant Dex 26 perfectly well, but 4 of that (which is to say one of the two) is utterly useless for AC even in a Mithril Chain Shirt. It'd all be useful in padded armor...but that results in a lower total AC.
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I guess the thing is, it's harder to run an Alchemist into the ground than a lot of other classes. You do get a lot of choices to customize, but a lot of "built-in" powers to make sure you don't just kinda spin your wheels.
Basically, what Ogre said.
But you said it in so many fewer words, I like it.
There is an alchemist in our 4th-level group, he is potent, though I wouldn't say he's overpowered. His bombs are very effective but they require the enemies to cooperate to a degree, clustering up and not intermixing with the PCs.
Usually the alchemist will get 1-2 bombs off each encounter. Occasionally I've seen him game them by tossing them at certain squares to hit a single target while not hitting others in melee with him, but his bombs' single-target damage is not particularly impressive. It's when he downs 3-4 mooks in a single attack that he shines.
Our alchemist never has a super-high AC, mainly because he doesn't spend several rounds self-buffing. He will immediately get into the thick of things, usually running right up front to get a bomb off while our melee hasn't yet ruined his opportunity.
He's also very versatile. In some sessions he's experimented with buffing the party to great effect, and I've also seen him toss out some healing.
Definitely a potent class, but he isn't stealing the spotlight all the time.
I really want to make a "are Fighters overpowered?" topic right now.
If it doesn't get 9th level spells or use infinite loops, it's generally not overpowered.
I know what you're saying, but I really do think "holy bombs" weren't thought through. There is no resistance or defense against them. Even a high powered dragon just takes the damage, unless the alchemist rolls 1s. No one else in the party can do that.
That seems broken. My definition of broken being "no one is having fun. The alchemist isn't challenged and the other players are overshadowed."
The fact that no one else can do it isnt a problem. Every party member SHOULD have something no one else can do. The alchemist being good at taking down things with low touch ac at close range makes lots of sense.
That said the problem here is how does the alchemist have all these bombs left when you get to the dragon? There is an alchemist in one of my groups, and though she can really lay in the hurt at times, she doesnt have bombs to spare, and often has to use alchemical items to stretch her resources. Sure a fully loaded alchemist could take down a dragon quickly with the fast bombs but why does the alchemist have so many bombs left? A dragon should be a key encounter no? It should be at the end of the day after 3-4 encounters have reduced party resources.
Then therese the whole range thing. Bombs have a max range of 50ft. Wouldnt an intelligent dragon move out of range after a round of getting pounded by bombs? Dragons are quite mobile.
Also where are holy bombs coming from? I dont know of a discovery that does that.
Also where are holy bombs coming from? I dont know of a discovery that does that.I really want to make a "are Fighters overpowered?" topic right now.
If it doesn't get 9th level spells or use infinite loops, it's generally not overpowered.
I know what you're saying, but I really do think "holy bombs" weren't thought through. There is no resistance or defense against them. Even a high powered dragon just takes the damage, unless the alchemist rolls 1s. No one else in the party can do that.
That seems broken. My definition of broken being "no one is having fun. The alchemist isn't challenged and the other players are overshadowed."
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Bring forth the holy handgernade
A high level evil dragon is pretty easy to take down with them, I'd suppose. Neutral and good dragons though.. not so much.
Though, Clerics could do similar.. and if its evil, Paladins ravage it.
The bombs do not seem to deal a huge amount of damage to a single-target, on average. Couldn't the dragon just choose to eat the alchemist? I mean, it's great that he's dealing 30 holy damage on average that the dragon can't resist, but...?
So I'd like to get some opinions thrown in here. Do you think the Alchemist in general, or this build specifically, is overpowered?
No, the rest of your group is underpowered and doesn't know how to work their PCs to best effect.
Your alchemist doesn't even sounds especially optimized. Keep in mind that although the alc can pump AC, it's not for long and uses a lot of resources. Bombs are very limited, are you counting them?
Rogues are just so easy to shut down, it's not even funny. You don't even have to try. It's tough being a rogue/ninja sometimes, you have to be smart about it.
And sword and board fighters are just non-optimal in PF. Melee, in general, sucks compared to archers at the moment, but using a shield makes it even worse.
Keep in mind the dragon in question has invisibility on its spell list and his breath weapon deals 66 damage on average. Also has vital strike chain of feats and power attack. That means its bite if it vital strikes averages 66 damage too. An alchemist with 14 Con has 83hp if it put all class points into HP. A full round attack from the dragon probably will kill the alchemist in one round.
1v1 the dragon will beat the alchemist unless the dragon has all sorts of handy-caps (some which seem to be typical of inexperienced GMs, like party getting surprise round in a confined space and the dragon being played below its intelligence, it has alarm it should not be surprised in its own lair). In a party fight there is a high risk of PC death even if the combat lasts just 2-3 rounds. So nothing wrong with the CR either.
The real problem is the rest of the party is underwhelming.
A fighter or paladin's purpose is a primary source of sustained damage, if they have trouble dealing damage, even against hard targets like AC29 (or 33 with shield up) in this example, they are poorly built. The "tank" isn't a party role, this isn't WoW. Stacking AC is good damage mitigation, but its not the only form of it (nor should it be the only thing you do, a threatening illusion could do the same job, as could summoned monsters). Killing the enemy fast is better, as is miss chance or not getting attacked at all. Paladins or fighters who go full tank often sacrifice their damage ability to the point of role abandonment. When you abandon your party role you aren't really contributing to combat, and monsters should ignore such chaff like parties do when they go straight for the BBEG and ignore the ineffective mooks. Don't be the party mook.
Rogues are a tough class to play right and require system mastery to even be competent compared to other classes right out of the box. This is a flaw with the class, and it isn't helped by your parties lack of system mastery.
Wizards and clerics who directly attack dragons with offensive spells are being played poorly. They should be using spells that don't allow SR (which there are plenty) or they should be using their abilities to buff and protect the party and control the battlefield. Failure to use their spells intelligently and effectively amount to role abandonment. Spending 2-3 rounds effectively doing nothing (because your spells hit SR or the enemy has high saves that are unlikely to be failed) means that you are even less useful than hirelings who can at least be devoured in place of their betters.
My two-handed weapon fighter snickers at the damage of the alchemist, but shudders at some of the rider effects (tanglefoot is crazy good, IMO). Both are level 7, and the fighter has a damage roll of 1d10+17...and Cleaving Finish. No way in hell is the alchemist gonna out damage that.
But, the alchemist serves far better IMO as the party's controller rather than damage dealer, although I agree their damage output is far from poor. Throw a tanglefoot bomb followed by an immolation bomb on the BBEG, and watch it cook in it's own juices (if it has them).
The alchemist isn't overpowered, but it is strong.