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Agreed. There's little benefit to extend gun training to other types of gun. It's like a fighter wasting three weapon specialization feats to three different weapons. Switch hitters may want to specialize in both a melee and ranged weapon, but specializing in three different ranged weapons??? (it's a redundant ability - people will have to make feats decision if they go musket vs. pistol, so the chances that they will actually start shooting pistols if they're built for muskets is slim to none)
That's a good point. Although the gunslinger will be able to use any firearm, pretty much without too many penalties, she should be great, even extraordinary with one type of weapon, the one she selects at 1st level. Almost a bonded weapon type thing, where she becomes increasingly better with it in combat, can more easily make it reliable (lower the misfire value),prevent it from exploding, even improve it to an advanced version of the firearm at a higher level. This could totally remove the issue of "advanced firearms" being overpowered, since they'de only be available to the gunslinger who improved his 1st level firearm, and no one but her could use it properly.
It could be called Gun Affinity or something. It would allow for "an expert with guns" feel, and incoporate a firearm level improvement mechanic into the class. Her gun becomes better, more reliable, deadlier, even more advanced as she gains levels.
I'd suggest solving that problem similar to the Wizard bonded item. The gunslinger can simply develop an affinity with a new weapon, giving up on the last one.
I've had favored pencils, or game controllers, or whatnot. I know that when I stop using the old one in favor of a new one that "did more/felt better", then my intimate subconscious knowledge of the old one fairly quickly disappears and is replaced with the new "always used" item.
Do this with the gunslinger, and he can pick a single weapon (not weapon type, a specific weapon) that he gets a nice benefit from, and then when something nicer comes along down the road, he can switch over with some practice and time.
So when he finds a nice pepperbox to replace his junk pistol he had at 1st level, he's not screwed out of his choice.
I think that it's a relic from when the class was still a fighter alternate; the Fighter's weapon training allows him to use a variety of different weapons with bonuses to each group. It's not necessarily "pointless" for the Gunslinger, since different types of guns have very different functions. However, there aren't that many types to begin with, so giving every Gunslinger the ability to wield them all seems like a little too much.
I feel that the class would benefit from having an ability more unique, to further distinguish it from the Fighter. I'd still appreciate something that reduces the feat tax she currently has, it would make her a lot more competitive in the long run.
Why should martial classes not being versatile?
Why should the gunslinger being good with a weapon only?
Now, if you say that the class should just take dex to damage with every gun after level X, is another thing. but even in that case, beware of multiclassing.
how is this different from fighter weapon training? heavy blades covers more different swords than firearms and no one whines about it. heck for the close category most of the weapons are not even related.
how is this different from fighter weapon training? heavy blades covers more different swords than firearms and no one whines about it. heck for the close category most of the weapons are not even related.
That's exactly the problem. Gun Training only allows Gunslingers to get bonuses for specific gun types, whereas Fighters get bonuses for entire groups of weapons. They both get training in multiple groups, but it is redundant for Gunslingers because not all builds are going to utilize multiple types of guns. The "pick another gun type to get bonuses in" part is what I have an issue with.
before I respond further could someone refresh my memory on the new gun training?
Agreed on fairly well all points of both Elghinn and Purple Dragon Knight. The suggested "Gun Affinity" sounds much more true to the "feel" of the class, as well as making more sense from a "min/max" point of view- However, I don't know how much sense improving the weapon to the point of an advanced weapon would make. I can turn my pistol into a revolver?
My thought with the "pistol turned into a revolver" is this. If the gunslinger has a strong affinity (bond) with her chosen gun, she knows it inside and out. Like modern gun specialists, she's taken it apart and reassembled it over and over, cleaned it to a shining gleem, knows everything about that specific gun.
Gunslingers are, from what I understand, or should be, the original creators and designers of the early firearms. If they can build them, why couldn't, or wouldn't a gunslinger have dreams of advancing her specific firearm? Making it more reliable (less misfires), increase its rnage or scatter blasting area, etc.
My point is, if advanced firearms as they are currently written seem to be way too powerful (since they officially won't appear in Galorian), why not allow the gunslinger, and gunslinger only, advance her firearm somewhat. No one can use the gun other then her anyways. It takes care of the issues of advanced firearms falling into the wrong hands, but allows the gunslinger keep the feel of a firearm specialist/engineer.
I realize in the real world, a pistol becoming a revolver sounds...way out there. However, if the gunslinger has disassembled and reassembler her gun, and created a new design to rebuild it, why, not allow for it in the class itself.
You could use a weapon tree for advancing each type of firearm. I'm still trying to work it all out but it could be something like this.
1) You have to choose from pistol, musket, or blunderbuss.
2) Each of these three would have an advancement tree. For my example I’m including a few other guns I think could be used with the current firearms. You can make an improvement/design change either into an alternate “early firearm”, or at a higher level, make an advanced firearm design change. Again, in my thoughts, these “advanced” versions would simply be mechanical advancements. They would still have misfires, but lack the chance of explosions. The point of the advanced versions is primarily to allow full attacks. Such conversions would be permanent, so they’d need to decide whether to do an early advancement, or advanced conversion.
Blunderbuss (tree)
Early Firearm Advancements: to double barrel blunderbuss
Advanced Firearms Conversion: to shot gun (11th level) or double barrel shot gun.
Musket (tree)
Early Firearm Advancements: to pepperbox gun (two-handed pepperbox, based on the Nock Volley Gun) or axe musket
Advanced Firearms Conversion: to rifle (6th level, range increase), then (11th level) to a repeater rifle (12 shot) or revolver rifle (6 shot) style.
Pistol (tree)
Early Firearm Advancements: to double barrel pistol, peperbox, or dragon pistol
Advanced Firearms Conversion: to revolver (11th level) or a “sawed-off type shot gun” (dragon pistol only).
3) These advancements would be similar to the idea of advancing a paladin’s bonded weapon, but nonmagical. They’d just have to take the time and pay the cost for the advancements or conversions.
I proposed this change to the Advanced firearms.
Advanced Firearms: …Advanced firearms misfire with the same value as their early firearm counterpart. Although they gain the broken condition like other firearms, advanced firearms only become jammed and do not explode on a consecutive misfire roll. An advanced firearm cannot be discharged again until the broken condition has been removed with the quick clear action.
Thus, a pistol converted to a revolver would still have the misfire 1, but won’t explode due to it being an advanced version. Of course, a gunslinger could buy or make new weapons at the appropriate costs, but only with her original gun (even with conversions) she would gain all the benefits of this Affinity (bond)
Do you see where I’m going?
My biggest problem is that gunslinger’s don’t seem to get their full attacks at higher levels. Then, what’s the point of having 4 attacks per ropund at 16th? They need to find a way to allow them to use them. I realize Dead Shot is one way, but that’s the point. It’s the only “One Way” there is, aside from double or triple barreling guns. Yuck!! They need to allow for both options, not pinhole gunslingers into one option. Again, think as a revolver as a rebuilt pistol with the cylinder mechanism added; same misfire, etc., but no explosion chance. Just a way to fire more than one bullet. One could still use Dead Shot with this sort of thing of course.
Another option would be to create deeds or Gunslinger only feats that allow pistols to be reloaded fast to allow full attacks, blinderbusses to improve their scatter spread, and muskets to improve range and single shot damage like the Dead Shot, but better optoion to that. Just some thoughts and ideas. I’ll be interested to see where they devs go with all the chat on the threads. This is still all in the working stage, but I hope everyone can see where the gunslinger could go with this. Of course, the advanced style could still be excluded.
After thinking, I think I recind my idea to allow the gunslinger to convert early firearms into advanced ones. Instead, lets keep early firearms as status quo, but make it possible for gunslngers to use their full attacks. Here's my ideas for the new "Gunsmith" feature, called Gun Affinity, and my adjustment to 'Gun Training".
Beginning at 1st level, as a standard action, the gunslinger can perform a quick clear action to remove the broken condition from this firearm, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. At 5th level, the gunslinger can perform this maneuver as a move-equivalent action, and at 9th level as a swift action. Additionally, at 7th level, as a standard action, whenever the gunslinger rolls a misfire with her bonded firearm that has the broken condition, she can keep the firearm from exploding, though it retains the broken condition.
Upon reaching 5th level, once per day, the gunslinger can use her bonded firearm to perform any one deed that she has access to without having to spend or maintain required grit points. This deed is treated like any deed other performed by the gunslinger.
In addition, a gunslinger can add any of the following weapon properties to her chosen firearm as if she has the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and if meets the level prerequisites of these abilities: corrosive, corrosive burst, cunning, distance, flaming, flaming burst, frost, greater lucky gun, huntsman, icy burst, lucky gun, reliable gun, seeking, shock, shocking burst, steadfast gun, and thundering. Although these properties duplicate the magical weapon abilities of the same name, the gunslinger can add them through alchemical means or technological engineering. The gunslinger can add these properties to her bonded firearm through the same process as creating magical weapons (see Creating Magical Weapons on page 551 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook). These abilities can be added to any properties the bonded firearm already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. Thus, a gunslinger with a bonded pistol must be at least 8th level to add the Reliable Gun magic ability to the pistol (see the Reliable Gun magical weapon property in Ultimate Combat).
If the bonded firearm is broken beyond repair and is not destroyed, it retains all of its bonded firearm properties and can be used to craft a new gun. The magic properties of a bonded firearm, including any magic abilities added to the firearm, only function for the gunslinger who owns it. If a bonded firearm’s owner dies, or the firearm is replaced, the firearm reverts to being an ordinary firearm of the appropriate type.
If a bonded firearm is damaged, it can be restored to full hit points after making the appropriate Craft check and one day of work. If the bonded firearm is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week of work and ¼ the cost of crafting a new masterwork firearm. Bonded firearms replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded firearm. A gunslinger can designate an existing magical firearm as her bonded firearm. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed firearm except that the new magic firearm retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded firearm.
In addition to the gunslinger’s bonus to damage rolls, she greatly improves her reloading skills and speed. Beginning at 6th level, if the gunslinger has Rapid Reload, whenever she uses the Lighting Reload Deed or is using alchemical cartridges (or both), she can reload a single barrel firearm twice per round. At 11th level, the gunslinger can reload a single barrel three times per round, and at 16th level, up to four times per round. Each reloading action occurs as a free action and must be taken either before or after the gunslinger discharges her firearm to allow the gunslinger to make a full-attack action during her turn.
I don't *mind* gun training as it is now -- I wouldn't mind being able to switch up between a double barrel pistol, a blunderbust and a musket depending on what I'm facing.
I could see having a +x distance seeking musket for longer ranged shots, a blunderbust with some different stuff on it, and two double barrel pistols for general "Lots of lead down range" times.
That doesn't mean however that I don't see room for improvement with this class feature.