Does anyone else find it odd that there is an item creation feat associated with an otherwise mundane craft item? Sure, it lacks some of the features expected from a magic item feat, but it stands alone as a replacement for the Craft skill mechanic.
I don't expect guns to be easily craftable - use of Craft (gunsmithing) or (engineering) and tough DCs - but a feat? Considering it's a free feat for the Gunslinger, why bother?
Otherwise, it would take a zillion years. However, I am of the opinion the Feat should also require a skill roll; creating magic items does.
Does anyone else find it odd that there is an item creation feat associated with an otherwise mundane craft item? Sure, it lacks some of the features expected from a magic item feat, but it stands alone as a replacement for the Craft skill mechanic.
I don't expect guns to be easily craftable - use of Craft (gunsmithing) or (engineering) and tough DCs - but a feat? Considering it's a free feat for the Gunslinger, why bother?
Why bother is because guns act more like magic items than they do mundane weapons. It is also easier to say a campaign doesn't have this feat than it does not have this skill.
It also allowed us to play with the economy of the gunslinger, making that option more affordable, while making other classes have to pay for that affordability.
Why bother is because guns act more like magic items than they do mundane weapons. It is also easier to say a campaign doesn't have this feat than it does not have this skill.
It also allowed us to play with the economy of the gunslinger, making that option more affordable, while making other classes have to pay for that affordability.
Perhaps it's a bias intertwined with the fact that I'm not a fan of guns acting like magic items, but I'm still not sold on this idea. What this inclusion suggests is that the crafting of firearms is an extraordinary ability rather than a skill. There isn't precedent for non-magical items to have a feat requirement because non-magical items are simple enough provided the crafter has the appropriate know-how - via skill checks.
It seems like one more instance in which gun are 'special', which, at least to me, jives as superfluous. From a GM perspective, saying there's no Craft (gunsmithing) doesn't occur as any more significant a hassle. And if this feat ever becomes launching point for a feat chain, additional hassle could be avoided.
As far as economy goes, and the idea of making other classes pay for things the gunslinger gets for free - I have a hard time reconciling this concept with the reality that a character always has to dedicate skill points to be able to craft items anyway. There is already a cost involved, and it's baked into the system. This raises that cost, and needlessly if Craft DCs for firearms are going to have any height to them.
Wouldn't it be easier to offer a skill bump for gunslingers, making ammunition craft an easier task due to a class feature? +1/2 level when crafting ammunition, for example. I'm not even sure this part is up for playtest, but I think the overall texture of the system should be considered before implementing a new feat that breaks from the norm. Texturally, this is something I doubt I'd use. I wouldn't be angry or annoyed in any kind of passionate way by the omission, and this doesn't rank as a huge concern to me, but in favor of consistency it seems like a misstep.
This does allow for gnomes with master tinker to make firearms and be proficient with them. Also gunslingers do not get that many skill points and guns are rare in galorion so you will need it to get new stuff.
Perhaps it's a bias intertwined with the fact that I'm not a fan of guns acting like magic items, but I'm still not sold on this idea. What this inclusion suggests is that the crafting of firearms is an extraordinary ability rather than a skill. There isn't precedent for non-magical items to have a feat requirement because non-magical items are simple enough provided the crafter has the appropriate know-how - via skill checks.
It seems like one more instance in which gun are 'special', which, at least to me, jives as superfluous. From a GM perspective, saying there's no Craft (gunsmithing) doesn't occur as any more significant a hassle. And if this feat ever becomes launching point for a feat chain, additional hassle could be avoided.
As far as economy goes, and the idea of making other classes pay for things the gunslinger gets for free - I have a hard time reconciling this concept with the reality that a character always has to dedicate skill points to be able to craft items anyway. There is already a cost involved, and it's baked into the system. This raises that cost, and needlessly if Craft DCs for firearms are going to have any height to them.
Wouldn't it be easier to offer a skill bump for gunslingers, making ammunition craft an easier task due to a class feature? +1/2 level when crafting ammunition, for example. I'm not even sure this part is up for playtest, but I think the overall texture of the system should be considered before implementing a new feat that breaks from the norm. Texturally, this is something I doubt I'd use. I wouldn't be angry or annoyed in any kind of passionate way by the...
A few things.
The various uses of skill are extraordinary abilities. Feats can grant extraordinary abilities.
I never said there was no Craft (gunslinging) skill, or that firearms couldn’t be created without that skill. The feat acts like it does for a couple of reasons. The first is that I wanted set of knowledge about the construction and the care in feat form. It’s not purely a class ability, because I wanted anyone to be able to take it. Think of it as a Skill Focus that grants actions or abilities rather than bonuses. And like Skill Focus, you don’t even have to be trained in that skill to take it.
Second, I wanted something that would work better with the assumption of Pathfinder Society. I’m one of those rare optimist that believes that we can design stuff that can work better if not flawlessly with organized play programs without losing anything.
As for a skill bump...I have been reading in a lot of places that the gunslinger needs more skills points or that he is somehow skill starved. You know, I’m really not buying it. I think there are some good builds right now that can seem like the only gunslinger choice for optimizers and power gamers. I know Ultimate Combat will offer other builds.
That said, the only thing you might see...might...is an increase to 4 + Int skills. I’m considering it, and want to talk it over with the rest of the design team, but I’m far from sold.
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Stephen, Dirlaise has a few good points... couldn't UC include guidelines on "Craft: Gunsmithing" (with Craft DCs for regular and MW firearms, and craft mechanics similar to existing ones, i.e. 1/3 of the price not half?)
Gunsmithing feat could be turned into a feat similar to a *combined* "master craftsman" and "craft arms and armor" feat (i.e. allows the feat user to craft magic guns even if he does not have spellcaster levels, using his ranks in Craft: Gunsmithing instead of caster levels. You can even). You can even have a short blurb under the magic item section that magical firearms can be created by non-spellcasters that both have "master craftsman" and "craft arms and armor" feats OR non-spellcasters that have the Gunsmithing feat. Of course, spellcasters with "craft magic arms and armor" can just craft magic guns as they do any other kind of weapons.
Then, finally, the Gunsmith gunslinger ability could, for example, read like this: (the added text follows the format of the rogue's trapfinding ability)
Gunsmith: At 1st level, a gunslinger gains one of the
following firearms of her choice: blunderbuss, musket,
or pistol. Her starting weapon is battered, and only she
knows how to use it properly. All other creatures treat her
gun as if it had the broken condition. If it already has
the broken condition, it does not work at all for others.
This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth
4d10 gold pieces when sold).
In addition, a gunslinger adds 1/2 her level to Craft: Gunsmithing
skill checks (minimum +1). The gunslinger also gains
Gunsmithing as a bonus feat.
Finally, a gunslinger gains the following benefits when using
Craft gunsmithing:
If you have access to a gunsmith kit, you can
create and restore firearms, craft bullets, and mix black
powder for all types of firearms.
Crafting Firearms: You can craft any early firearm for a
cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm
at an accelerated rate instead of the usual one third price
described in the PRPG Craft rules. Crafting a firearm in
this way takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of the firearm’s
price (minimum 1 day).
Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and
black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of
the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you
can craft alchemical cartridges at an accelerated rate instead
of the usual one third price described in the PRPG Craft rules
for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the
cartridge. At your GM’s
discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw
materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting
bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for
every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).
Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour’s worth
of work, you can use Craft gunsmithing to repair a single firearm
with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest
to restore a broken firearm with this feat.
A few things.
I would expect some form of Craft skill associated with firearms - as well as new Craft options in UC concerning airships and the like. What I'm unclear on, then, is what this feat offers that replaces skill use. Does this mean, then, that some of the options available using the feat would not be available through Craft checks? Alchemical ammunition, for example?
The skill bump was merely suggested as a potential alternative. I've run a lot of Craft heavy characters, both as a player and as a GM. I think they're fun - particularly in a system with a lot of options for crafting unusual items. In my book, firearms qualify. I'm really not that concerned with the class being feat starved or skill starved - of my issues, those don't rank very high. What concerns me is a departure from the precedent that non-magic item creation uses a feat (though I'm less concerned provided it doesn't necessarily require a feat).
I did a quick review of Society rules after your post. I'm not a Society player, but I respect the attention to organized play, as it seems like the most potentially problematic place to insert new rules. If I understand correctly, the intent is to offer a fast and reliable crafting option to gunslingers (or characters who use guns) in organized games without a lot of downtime, while providing a few options otherwise unavailable (like restoring a starting firearm).
That seems fair - but...I'm still not convinced it couldn't be covered in the skill description. If there's something I'm overlooking, please correct me, but with standard item creation feats unavailable in organized play doesn't that make this feat a strange exception? To be fair, other classes already have to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to make use of firearms effectively - and also take this feat to unlock crafting options for that weapon. Does this render ranks in the Craft (gunsmithing) skill irrelevant? Or does a character get the option of either to accomplish the same task?
Aside from a famine of downtime in games I've played, I haven't experienced any problems with the system as it stands. This deviation still strikes me as an odd choice for accomplishing this goal.