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The one thing that seems to be agreed on in the "Guns are Broken" thread is that gunslingers with guns aren't overpowered, and in fact may be underpowered relative to other classes also using firearms.
Personally, I am not a fan of the grit mechanics. I don't like every changing point buy systems, as they slow down the game and are a lot to keep track of at the table. So adding more options there I think only causes more headaches.
So, two idea based on other class abilities.
1. Flurry of Bullets (1st level)
Like flurry of blows, only for pistols. A gunslinger he may make one additional attack using his pistols as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, reloading as a free action throughout.
This would effectively give them rapid reload for pistols on a limited basis that grows as you take more gunslinger levels. No more need for a feat chain. I would also get rid of rapid reload for firearms as a feat so that doing this is a gunslinger special ability, but that is just me.
2. Guided Shot. (2nd level)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Wisdom bonus (if any) per Gunslinger class level to her Wisdom bonus to modify Armor Class and to damage with a firearm.
This would allow Gunslingers to increase damage and ac, while avoiding being just a dip class, as it scales with the number of levels of gunslinger you take.
I'm looking at these as replacing some of the more clunky grit mechanics. The grit abilities that don't require a point to be spent are fine. Better than fine actually, some are quite good. The others...meh.
Anyway, thought on the two above additions to gunslingers?
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Flurry would eliminate the point of rifles... would need to cost a grit point seeing that this is way to useful with only hitting touch ac
Guided shot doesn't really fit with the character at all. Why give wisdom bonus? Maybe int bonus when prone and bonus to stealth with int when prone.(I see this as a feat more than class ability) thinking sniper.
And my brain just clicked you are wanting a gunfu gunslinger? Then yes these make sense for an arch type. Still feel flurry has to have a limit on how often though
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Flurry would eliminate the point of rifles... would need to cost a grit point seeing that this is way to useful with only hitting touch ac
Guided shot doesn't really fit with the character at all. Why give wisdom bonus? Maybe int bonus when prone and bonus to stealth with int when prone.(I see this as a feat more than class ability) thinking sniper.
And my brain just clicked you are wanting a gunfu gunslinger? Then yes these make sense for an arch type. Still feel flurry has to have a limit on how often though
Rifle are for range, flurry I'd pistol only. Keep in mind flurry is now just the two weapon fighting chain without the feat tax and limited to pistols.
It isn't gun fu. It is applying tested mechanics to the game. The ac bonus is based of the dualist.
Assuming that the gunslinger remains the 'gun class' then a major class ability like the one you propose would have to work with all firearms a gunslinger could use and not just pistols. Or there should be an alternate option for various kinds of firearms.
Pistols(one handed firearms) - flurry of bullets
Musket(2handed firearms) - something else
[possibly seperate out blunderbus and shotgun as well]
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Assuming that the gunslinger remains the 'gun class' then a major class ability like the one you propose would have to work with all firearms a gunslinger could use and not just pistols. Or there should be an alternate option for various kinds of firearms.
Pistols(one handed firearms) - flurry of bullets
Musket(2handed firearms) - something else
[possibly seperate out blunderbus and shotgun as well]
I would want something for each Class, to be an option.
Perhaps, for example extending the touch attack range for a from a rifle.
Or having the Dead shot mechanic be designed specifically for use with muskets.
Or extending the scatter range on blunderbusses.
Add in reducing misfire chances, and perhaps having the class have exclusive access to the advanced firearms by allowing them to use regular firearms as if advanced, and I think you have a class that is A) Simple and fun to play, B) Competitive but not over powered and C) Fitting it's own niche.
I still think it should have been a monk alternate class since so many features line up.
I still think it should have been a monk alternate class since so many features line up.
Or fighter, or...anything. A lot of classes benefit from the ability to strike touch AC, and depending on the prevalence of guns, each class can see benefits (except Druid...). Rather than a class at all, I'd prefer new rogue abilities, new archetypes, and specific options that highlight benefits. Alchemists with neat guns instead of bombs, a magus with special gunmage abilities, or even a smite-happy paladin with a gunblade would be cool. It would certainly limit "all gunlsingers are the same" arguments.
I don't hate flurry of bullets replacing flurry of blows, and a rogue sharpshooter with unique targeting options (hopefully better than the current "Boom...head..shot?" ability) would provide nifty alternatives that illuminate firearm capabilities.
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I still think it should have been a monk alternate class since so many features line up.Or fighter, or...anything. A lot of classes benefit from the ability to strike touch AC, and depending on the prevalence of guns, each class can see benefits (except Druid...). Rather than a class at all, I'd prefer new rogue abilities, new archetypes, and specific options that highlight benefits. Alchemists with neat guns instead of bombs, a magus with special gunmage abilities, or even a smite-happy paladin with a gunblade would be cool. It would certainly limit "all gunlsingers are the same" arguments.
I don't hate flurry of bullets replacing flurry of blows, and a rogue sharpshooter with unique targeting options (hopefully better than the current "Boom...head..shot?" ability) would provide nifty alternatives that illuminate firearm capabilities.
And that is kind of my problem. They make the nifty to complicated. Just make the class better with guns than the other classes and not so great with anything other than guns.
The benefits only apply to guns, and you have a two stat class (Wisdom and Dex) that would be fun and easy to play.
The extra untested mechanics aren't needed.
And that is kind of my problem. They make the nifty to complicated. Just make the class better with guns than the other classes and not so great with anything other than guns.
The benefits only apply to guns, and you have a two stat class (Wisdom and Dex) that would be fun and easy to play.
The extra untested mechanics aren't needed.
I believe we are in agreement. The developers wanted guns to be unique and the gunslinger to have unique options for the unique weapon it uses. However, the system that we have produces a number of problems with implementation. In my book, if you have to cite more than two exceptions for a new mechanic, the mechanic strains the system too much. We are seeing all kinds of threads pop up with issues - and not with the class we're supposed to be playtesting, but with the weapon it uses - which we can do nothing about except complain into the ether. The class is taking a second seat to the firearm, and has been since round 1. Now the class is strained under the weight of a discontent that has, from what I've seen, caused a lot of otherwise intelligent and level-headed contributors to the forums to devolve to immature bickering over mechanics that we've been reminded repeatedly are not even a part of the playtest.
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I believe we are in agreement. The developers wanted guns to be unique and the gunslinger to have unique options for the unique weapon it uses. However, the system that we have produces a number of problems with implementation. In my book, if you have to cite more than two exceptions for a new mechanic, the mechanic strains the system too much. We are seeing all kinds of threads pop up with issues - and not with the class we're supposed to be playtesting, but with the weapon it uses - which we can do nothing about except complain into the ether. The class is taking a second seat to the firearm, and has been since round 1. Now the class is strained under the weight of a discontent that has, from what I've seen, caused a lot of otherwise intelligent and level-headed contributors to the forums to devolve to immature bickering over mechanics that we've been reminded repeatedly are not even a part of the playtest.And that is kind of my problem. They make the nifty to complicated. Just make the class better with guns than the other classes and not so great with anything other than guns.
The benefits only apply to guns, and you have a two stat class (Wisdom and Dex) that would be fun and easy to play.
The extra untested mechanics aren't needed.
Well said.
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I still think it should have been a monk alternate class since so many features line up.
I would be ok with that concept, except I really don't like what they did with Ki points all that much.
Point systems add a degree of complexity at the table that slows things down, and a nova mechanic to all encounters that can change dynamics.
With the monk it isn't too bad since the boosts aren't really combat ending type things. More moderate attack bonuses and escape options.
But the gunslinger grit seems to be the class, and even so it plays more like an "oh crap, we need to give them some stuff to do" rather than an organic part of the class.
Like I've said from jump, scrap grit and make some of them more like the talent mechanics, then give the gunslinger thing they can do with guns that others can't.