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Okay, so I have a kind of problem, and I wanted some input.
In a few sessions, my players will be running into a cave teaming with undead. It was the former home of an evil necromancer, and they need to raid it for clues on what he might have been up to/what he might have done.
Now, the thing is, I, as a GM, hate level drain. I think it is a stupid, stupid concept. And what's worse are the rules that can make it permanent if you don't get a restoration spell (or make the fort save.) I don't want to introduce something that sucks the fun out of the game, and the prospect of a monster hitting you a few times, you losing all your abilities, and maybe being sent back down to level 1 while the rest of the party is level 8 seems like a quick way to loose players and alienate people.
But I don't know. Has anyone else had experience with this? Maybe I'm over thinking it and they'll be fine, who knows? I'll give you the rundown and you tell me if I'm being too kid-gloves-ey
The party consists of four, a ranger/fighter, an illusionist, a druid, and a rogue/shadowdancer. They should be about level 8 when they reach the cave.
As far as I can tell, to give them a decent challenge, I have three options:
1) Send them up against level-draining undead like Specters and Barrow-weights.
2) Send them up against lots of lesser undead, possibly using level-advancing rules or applying the undead templates to powerful creatures like angels and demons and the like. This has the downside of them facing off against skeletons and zombies all the time, just with more and more hit-dice . . . not very new and exciting.
3) Invent new, non-level draining undead using the monster creation rules. While admittedly, this is (in theory) the best option, I have a hard time deciding which abilities they should have and what is appropriate for their level.
Throw in a couple of level draining monsters (PCs tend to be a little more careful around these), some shadows (CR3), advanced Shadows, or maybe a greater shadow (CR 8) (strength drain can be fun), And some strong popcorn (zombies and skeletons, troll, ogre, giant, flaming skeleton, fast zombies, advanced template). Really mix it up, Facing a dungeon of level draining monsters is no fun, but a couple can make things exciting. And remember, "permanent" means it needs a restoration spell, so they can get rid of it eventually.
Level-draining isn't that bad in Pathfinder, since negative levels only impart a number of penalties. They don't cause the character to lose any abilities, and most of the level-draining effects can't become permanent since they don't last long enough.
i to am not a big fan of level drain. the way i handle it is to ignor the permanent side of it. i also (depending on my mood and how nice i want to be) just give the players a -2 to hit each time they fail the save,falling uncontious when there ab reaches 0 and make them fatigued. then have all conditions heal after 8hrs of natural rest. My players seem to respond to this method the best.
hope that hels abit
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Throw in a couple of level draining monsters (PCs tend to be a little more careful around these), some shadows (CR3), advanced Shadows, or maybe a greater shadow (CR 8) (strength drain can be fun), And some strong popcorn (zombies and skeletons, troll, ogre, giant, flaming skeleton, fast zombies, advanced template). Really mix it up, Facing a dungeon of level draining monsters is no fun, but a couple can make things exciting. And remember, "permanent" means it needs a restoration spell, so they can get rid of it eventually.
Um, according to the bestiary . . . which I don't have in front of me ATM . . . so I can't quote verbatim . . .
When you get hit with negative levels, you stay that way Until A)You get a restoration spell or B) 8 hours pass. If 8 Hrs. pass, then you need to make a fort save for each lost level (DC dependent on the monster) and if you make the save, the level comes back no harm no foul. If you fail however, you permanently loose that level.
Throw in a couple of level draining monsters (PCs tend to be a little more careful around these), some shadows (CR3), advanced Shadows, or maybe a greater shadow (CR 8) (strength drain can be fun), And some strong popcorn (zombies and skeletons, troll, ogre, giant, flaming skeleton, fast zombies, advanced template). Really mix it up, Facing a dungeon of level draining monsters is no fun, but a couple can make things exciting. And remember, "permanent" means it needs a restoration spell, so they can get rid of it eventually.Um, according to the bestiary . . . which I don't have in front of me ATM . . . so I can't quote verbatim . . .
When you get hit with negative levels, you stay that way Until A)You get a restoration spell or B) 8 hours pass. If 8 Hrs. pass, then you need to make a fort save for each lost level (DC dependent on the monster) and if you make the save, the level comes back no harm no foul. If you fail however, you permanently loose that level.
Page 562, core rulebook: Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
EDIT: No level drain is truly permanent in pathfinder.
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Page 562, core rulebook: Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
EDIT: No level drain is truly permanent in pathfinder.
I don't know. They will only be level 8, and that means that they die if a level draining creature hits them 4 times (since most creatures drain 2 levels at a time.) It just seems, harsh.
Though it not being truly perminant makes me slightly less hesitant to use that stuff.
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Level-draining isn't that bad in Pathfinder, since negative levels only impart a number of penalties. They don't cause the character to lose any abilities…
Emphasizing this. It’s not like the “olden days.” Take a good look at the write up (emphasis mine):
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
The only really horrible horrible part is at the end there, if those negative levels stack up. The rest is punitive, sure, but can be dealt with.
Page 562, core rulebook: Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
EDIT: No level drain is truly permanent in pathfinder.
I don't know. They will only be level 8, and that means that they die if a level draining creature hits them 4 times (since most creatures drain 2 levels at a time.) It just seems, harsh.
Though it not being truly permanent makes me slightly less hesitant to use that stuff.
The specter is also CR 7, you would not throw more than one at a time at the PCs, and with minimal help. Throw 2-3 over the course of the entire dungeon and the risk of killing the PCs is low (from negative levels). They also get a fort save to avoid the negative levels, which the ranger/fighter and druid should make pretty easily.
Okay, so I have a kind of problem, and I wanted some input.
In a few sessions, my players will be running into a cave teaming with undead. It was the former home of an evil necromancer, and they need to raid it for clues on what he might have been up to/what he might have done.
Now, the thing is, I, as a GM, hate level drain. I think it is a stupid, stupid concept. And what's worse are the rules that can make it permanent if you don't get a restoration spell (or make the fort save.) I don't want to introduce something that sucks the fun out of the game, and the prospect of a monster hitting you a few times, you losing all your abilities, and maybe being sent back down to level 1 while the rest of the party is level 8 seems like a quick way to loose players and alienate people.
But I don't know. Has anyone else had experience with this? Maybe I'm over thinking it and they'll be fine, who knows? I'll give you the rundown and you tell me if I'm being too kid-gloves-ey
The party consists of four, a ranger/fighter, an illusionist, a druid, and a rogue/shadowdancer. They should be about level 8 when they reach the cave.
As far as I can tell, to give them a decent challenge, I have three options:
1) Send them up against level-draining undead like Specters and Barrow-weights.
2) Send them up against lots of lesser undead, possibly using level-advancing rules or applying the undead templates to powerful creatures like angels and demons and the like. This has the downside of them facing off against skeletons and zombies all the time, just with more and more hit-dice . . . not very new and exciting.
3) Invent new, non-level draining undead using the monster creation rules. While admittedly, this is (in theory) the best option, I have a hard time deciding which abilities they should have and what is appropriate for their level.
I know how you feel.
1) Pathfinder really did get rid of permanent undead drain, although you need to be high enough level to repair or restore those levels. Might want to double check the cleric side of restoring Energy Drain. Pathfinder did do a good job (although keeping track of negative level still requires some work).
2) Well since this is advice and not rules = Will give my old house rule i used for Energy Drain in past ed.
Each 1 level of Energy Drain = Drains/does 1d10 hit point damage to target. The creatures that does the Energy Drain, is healed by that many hit point worth of damage, Up to there normal Max. --Any extra hp over there max is just lost,------- never liked keeping track of temp hit-point.
This way undead, and outer plane creatures that do Energy Drain, does not effect anything but hit points. As the target loses hp, the undead heals itself, and therefor remains a deadly challange, without a lot of paper-work.
Fast, Simple and Easy
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Energy drain is often described as leeching away the life essence of a creature, thus it might be a good option to have it be Con drain (the stat most closely tied to life essence), instead of full level drain. That will incorporate a quasi-permanent hit point loss and reduced Fort saves until restored, but it won't cost the characters their knowledge-based abilities, such as spell levels and slots. And characters can generally afford to lose more Con points than they can levels, since they usually have a lot more of them. For the record, the way Energy Drain is already drawn up in the RAW, it does an automatic 5 points damage, which the draining creature gains as temporary hit points, similar to what Oliver suggested, though to a lesser degree.
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…it won't cost the characters their knowledge-based abilities, such as spell levels and slots.Again, in Pathfinder, you don’t lose spells or spell slots.
Actually, they do.
The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.
The key word here is "prepared." In other words, if a 5th level wizard takes a negative level on Monday afternoon, he doesn't lose any 3rd level spells he's prepared and hasn't yet cast. Likewise, a 6th level sorceror won't lose any 3rd level spell slots that he hasn't already used up for the day if he's the unlucky cuss. However, come Tuesday, if they didn't make their saves or get a restoration spell, they are effectively 4th level and 5th level casters, respectively, and thus, the wizard is unable to prepare any third level spells, and the sorceror loses all of this third level spell slots and one of his second level spell slots until they get those negative levels removed (i.e. "level dependent variables (such as spellcasting)".
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Nightwish, I disagree entirely with your interpretation of the phrase "level-dependent variables", because I don't think spell progression is a variable.
Level drain isn't so bad in Pathfinder, and it's most lethal at level 2-4. At level 8, your party should be just fine unless they fight more than 3-4 level-draining creatures at one time. And if they gain a level, they automatically get rid of at least one permanent negative level just for leveling up.
As level 8 characters, they should have access to Restoration. If they don't have it as a spell, they should get scrolls, potions, or wands of it. You're the GM. If you really are afraid of the PC's dying to level drain or not having fun due to level drain, then you can include a wand of restoration (~10 charges) in the first treasure pile and make sure the PC's get it. Somebody HAS to be able to use that wand.
I recommend you mix your undead types, and maybe have a stat-damaging wight or spectre variant (call it the Lesser Wight or the Lesser Specter), but keep the main dish the same - Specters and Wights are scary. I find them fun to fight for exactly that reason. If you think it's too much for the PC's to handle as they are, give them a few advantages, such as knowing ahead of time that they will face specters, having time to buff, or getting some free Restoration spells, for example.
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Nightwish, I disagree entirely with your interpretation of the phrase "level-dependent variables", because I don't think spell progression is a variable.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that, then. Spell progression is definitely a level-dependent variable (it's a variable, meaning certain factors cause it to change [such as gaining levels], and it is level dependent, ergo it is a level-dependent variable), just as are damage dice on certain spells and caster level on spell penetration checks. If they had intended that level drain could never deprive you of spells or spell slots, even temporarily, they wouldn't have bothered with such an arbitrary qualifier as "prepared," they would simply have said, "spellcasters do not lose any spells or spell slots." The word "prepared" modifies both spells and spell slots (spontaneous casters don't prepare their spells ahead of time, but they do prepare their slots by praying or meditating). As with most of the game, it is subject to interpretation, but I think Occam's Razor is with me on this one. They nerfed energy drain by making it tons easier to get rid of, but I seriously doubt they intended to make one of the most fearsome powers in all of D&D as relatively impotent as some of you are claiming.
Last i heard, the whole, spell are lost, are not lost debated keep getting changed due to some Editor, cough cough, keep changing his mind.
To be honest, i have no clue were that stands now.
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The Con Drain, is another way to go. Although this would effect and change your bonus hp from con. (if you like reconfigure).
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Still prefer the 1d10 damage to target/Heal to creature. This way Energy Drain creates a running challenge, vs your life source (aka HP). The fact that it heals the creature, still keeps the energy drain a deadly ability.
Okay, so I have a kind of problem, and I wanted some input.
In a few sessions, my players will be running into a cave teaming with undead. It was the former home of an evil necromancer, and they need to raid it for clues on what he might have been up to/what he might have done.
Now, the thing is, I, as a GM, hate level drain. I think it is a stupid, stupid concept. And what's worse are the rules that can make it permanent if you don't get a restoration spell (or make the fort save.) I don't want to introduce something that sucks the fun out of the game, and the prospect of a monster hitting you a few times, you losing all your abilities, and maybe being sent back down to level 1 while the rest of the party is level 8 seems like a quick way to loose players and alienate people.
But I don't know. Has anyone else had experience with this? Maybe I'm over thinking it and they'll be fine, who knows? I'll give you the rundown and you tell me if I'm being too kid-gloves-ey
The party consists of four, a ranger/fighter, an illusionist, a druid, and a rogue/shadowdancer. They should be about level 8 when they reach the cave.
As far as I can tell, to give them a decent challenge, I have three options:
1) Send them up against level-draining undead like Specters and Barrow-weights.
2) Send them up against lots of lesser undead, possibly using level-advancing rules or applying the undead templates to powerful creatures like angels and demons and the like. This has the downside of them facing off against skeletons and zombies all the time, just with more and more hit-dice . . . not very new and exciting.
3) Invent new, non-level draining undead using the monster creation rules. While admittedly, this is (in theory) the best option, I have a hard time deciding which abilities they should have and what is appropriate for their level.
Most undead in older legends only do things like kill people and drink their blood or cause massive plagues. Instead of level drain, you could have them get the possibility of contracting some sort of disease from the undead they face - something that could result in loss of various stats (especially Constitution). If the person dies of the disease they become an undead of the same type that killed them. Successful Fort saves or Heal checks (not to mention [i]remove disease[/] could work to fix them. If you want to add something for effect you could give a disease that slowly mutates the character into something rather hideous-looking as it progresses.