Since the spell has verbal, material and somatic components, does the target remember that you just cast a spell on them? If so, I don't see how that really works from a character motivation perspective:
Gee, this person I don't know just waved her hands around and chanted something that sounded like a spell aimed at me, but I guess that's okay because she's my friend now.
I've always thought it made sense for the target to recognize a spell was attempted if the caster fails, but to not realize it if the spell was successful. What do you guys think?
Since the spell has verbal, material and somatic components, does the target remember that you just cast a spell on them? If so, I don't see how that really works from a character motivation perspective:
I'm going to assume you mean if your target fails their saving throw.
-if they don't have spellcraft this is easy. They have no idea you cast charm person. they don't know what you did.
-If they do have spellcraft or knowledge arcana, they know what spell was cast on them. Its a good thing that my buddy used charm person instead of a killer spell on me, because he's such a good wizard. He just wanted to get to know me better.
A spellcraft roll is not a substitute for a will save
This is one of those cases where you have to make some judgment calls. At least when the spell wears off. While you are charmed, even if you retain the wit to know you've been charmed, you won't care.
But when it wears off, you might care. Even if you lack spellcraft ranks and don't recognize the spell, if you have a reasonable intelligence (I'd say at least int of 6 or better) you are going to have a good idea that someone did SOMETHING to you. At that point it's up to the player (if it's a PC) or the DM (if it's an NPC) to decide what the affected character's reaction is likely to be.
In most cases it won't be a positive one. And saying "you don't know what spell I cast" isn't going to help when the half-orc barbarian says "I saw you casting SOMETHING buddy!"
And this is why Charm Person is best cast behind the target's back in a noisy room. Or while the target is asleep.
(And by the way: it doesn't have a material component.)
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This is also why casting Charm Person is considered a criminal act of coercion in some campaigns, much like casting detect alignment or detect evil/good is considered a criminal invasion of privacy.
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...Spoilsport.
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I say have them roll a D20 using their Wisdom adjustment to see if they can sense that something is not right with themselves. Based on how the Wizard treats him, the target may notice on some conscious level that something is not right with his own actions.
Kinda like how your girlfriend "convinces" you to take her out even though you just wanted play Pathfinder tonight! :-)
I say have them roll a D20 using their Wisdom adjustment to see if they can sense that something is not right with themselves. Based on how the Wizard treats him, the target may notice on some conscious level that something is not right with his own actions.
Kinda like how your girlfriend "convinces" you to take her out even though you just wanted play Pathfinder tonight! :-)
If the character failed his save and is charmed, then he is charmed. Role play him that way. When the charm is over, then you can role play him as someone who was coerced into things he did not want to do.
But to have him become aware and potentially attempt to overcome or outwit the charm spell is essentially another save against the spell. That's not how charm works.
So the situation that is coming up is an NPC is going to cast charm person on an NPC that is guiding the party. She has a lesser rod of metamagic (silent) that she can use with the spell.
For the duration of the spell, it makes sense for the charmed NPC to be unaware of what's happening if he fails his save. (She is only trying to get him to drop his natural suspicion a bit so she can use diplomacy, etc. to ask a few questions-- not get him to do anything radically outside the norm.)
The question I have is what happens after the spell is over. Does he "remember" that she cast a spell on him? If she casts it while hidden and using the silent rod, will he even have anything to remember?
I'm currently leaning towards him thinking that something wasn't quite right, but not really able to put his finger on what it was.
This is also why casting Charm Person is considered a criminal act of coercion in some campaigns, much like casting detect alignment or detect evil/good is considered a criminal invasion of privacy.
Wait... how can that be considered a criminal invasion? Paladins do it at will... Charm obviously, it's like a magical rufie. But detection of good and evil seems, difficult.
If I go in your house or shop and start casting detect hidden door, that's one thing-
The question I have is what happens after the spell is over. Does he "remember" that she cast a spell on him? If she casts it while hidden and using the silent rod, will he even have anything to remember?I'm currently leaning towards him thinking that something wasn't quite right, but not really able to put his finger on what it was.
The human power of self-delusion is sometimes ridiculously strong. That's part of what goes into maintaining the veil between the supernatural and the mortal in World of Darkness - if you see a hulking bestial shape out of the corner of your eye at night, that's gone when you look right at it, you're going to dismiss it as your eyes playing tricks, even if it was actually a werewolf ducking into an ally. There's been studies done to show this - one recent one had students take a test, but some of them "accidentally" had the answer key attached. The better the students were told they did, the better they rated their chances on doing the same again on the next test, even if they had the answer key for the first and knew they wouldn't for the second. There's been others along the lines of "I meant to do that".
I would say that after the charm spell wears off, the character remembers everything they did, remembers that they wanted to do it, but may not remember their reasons. Usually at that point, they'll begin coming up with justifications. "Oh, he seemed like such a nice person, and I couldn't see how it could hurt." "Oh, shoot, I forgot that I wasn't supposed to do that." "I must have been drunk". If it was something you had to roll an opposed charisma check for, they might start questioning themselves ("That's not like me. I wonder what came over me") and it's quite possible that they might eventually realize they were charmed, but they might just chalk it up to the non-magical form of being charmed, seduced, intimidated, or fast-talked. "Dang it, I knew that wasn't right, but when she batted her eyes at me and gave me that phony sob story, I just couldn't think straight."
Kinda like how your girlfriend "convinces" you to take her out even though you just wanted play Pathfinder tonight! :-)
Let's be honest, if we're playing this game we don't have girlfriends.
If the character failed his save and is charmed, then he is charmed. Role play him that way. When the charm is over, then you can role play him as someone who was coerced into things he did not want to do.
But to have him become aware and potentially attempt to overcome or outwit the charm spell is essentially another save against the spell. That's not how charm works.
+1
My cleric in Kingmaker is susceptible to charms, I have YET in 13 levels to pass one of those saves. It is especially infuriating when they are delivered by a half-fiend satyr that is responsible for murdering persons for whom she was responsible.
I roleplayed the heck out of those charms. The hellfaun had barbed fur, horns and bat wings, but he also had 30+ charisma so my cleric was extremely wounded when he just up and flew away at the end of the encounter. Party fighter immediately said "good riddance" and I had to explain to him out of character that 30 charisma is godly. In practical terms, it would be like being visited by the second coming of Freddie Mercury plus at least another 10 charisma.
And boy, was my cleric angry when that charm wore off.
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Kinda like how your girlfriend "convinces" you to take her out even though you just wanted play Pathfinder tonight! :-)Let's be honest, if we're playing this game we don't have girlfriends.
HEY! All my players have significant others.
If you GM Pathfinder then you probably don't have a girlfriend. :(
Kinda like how your girlfriend "convinces" you to take her out even though you just wanted play Pathfinder tonight! :-)Let's be honest, if we're playing this game we don't have girlfriends.
Speak for yourself. I'm married and my wife is my current GM for -three- games! ^.^
Living the dream, baby... livin' the dream...
But anyway, back on topic:
No. If he didn't notice you casting a spell, he doesn't know, when the spell wears off, that you cast a spell. If he SUCCEEDED on a save, he knows 'something wierd just happened what the heck was that'. But on a fail, from behind, silent spell? Nope. He just felt really affectionate to that guy that day...
But remember to read, and re-read, the rules on charmed behavior in the PFRPG. They're very clear about what happens in combat situations. The smart thing to do when casting a charm spell is to scream it really loud and point at the guy you're charming so your allies don't accidentally shoot him and wreck your spell -after- a failed save. If you prepare (or have as a spell) charm spells, make sure to have your IC discussion with your adventuring buds about charm behavior protocols.
I've always takent he somatic and verbal components in this spell to be a conversation that the caster has started with the target (they're a hand talker haha)gesturing while they suggest something that they would both enjoy (under the effect of the spell). A lot of enchantment, illusion, compulsion and general Bard abilities/spells can be played up this way, though intelligent casters might still notice what's being done with a spellcraft check.
Every time this topic arises, I'm reminded of that fun Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode in which Jonathan (a socially inept tertiary character ) used magic to make himself into a paragon; the best at absolutely everything and loved by all. Eventually some of the main characters began to suspect that there might be something supernatural about Jonathan and we got this great exchange:
Xander: "So we're saying he did a spell just to make us think he was cool?"
Giles: "Yes."
Xander: "That is so cool!"
One tip i learned with the Hangman Noose module, whenever a PC is charmed, don't make him roll a will save to resist, roll in secret, and then roleplay as if the charmer is the best person in the world with that PC, make him/her appear pretty, offer him money and items, offer help and suggest good things. When in fact, they have been charmed all this time and those were all lies, but they didnt get to roll their Sense Motive because they were charmed.
When the effect is over, if they have the spellcraft skill, make them check for it and they will realize the trickery ("You liar!").
Even if you know the person cast a charm spell you don’t know who the target is. So if the target fails his saving throw and is charmed he will likely believe that someone else is the target. After all there is no way his friend who he trusts is going to cast a charm on him. He was casting it on the other party member so they would not attack him.
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
The spell does not change what you know, but it does change your perception of what has happened. The spell also does not alter your memories so after it ends you may realize what happened.
It goes like this:
"Its a good thing that Marty the Mage charmed me, otherwise I would not know that he was my friend and I may have hurt him!"