Do your wooden arrows go poof on the elemental plane of fire? what about your spell scrolls?
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Ok, now a thoughtful response please? Have extreme environments been considered? I haven't seen this topic discussed so far.
The answers to these may seem obvious to some, but might not to others. For many GMs, the idea of gunpowder igniting underwater may seem impossible (thus limiting the flexibility of the Gunslinger). To others, gunpowder may operate like magic (I.e., no oxygen is needed).
I'm interested to hear how gunpowder should be treated for adjudication purposes.
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Ok, now a thoughtful response please? Have extreme environments been considered? I have seen this topic discussed so far.
No, he's being thoughtful. It's like any character who goes to the plane of fire, are they protected? No? Then they'll probably go up in flames... man, I really didn't intend for that pun.
I think the gunfighter will be at an disadvantage in the extreme conditions unless having something special like spells, etc. to help him, otherwise he'll/she'll have a snowballs chance in the hell.
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I'm presuming you have thoughtfully consulted the Pathfinder rules when responding above. I have, and still am left with my original questions. For convenience, I've cited underwater rules below:
"Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist's fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made the caster level check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell's line of effect.
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion."
Now, is gunpowder like nonmagical fire (and therefore ineffective underwater) or is it something different?
It appears that an archer or fire-based spellcaster can function underwater with some hindrance. The Gunslinger, however, doesn't appear to have a work-around, unless of course gunpowder functions differently than it does in the real world (or differently than nonmagical fire or alchemist's fire).
I'm presuming you have thoughtfully consulted the Pathfinder rules when responding above. I have, and still am left with my original questions. For convenience, I've cited underwater rules below:
"Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist's fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made the caster level check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell's line of effect.
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion."
Now, is gunpowder like nonmagical fire (and therefore ineffective underwater) or is it something different?
It appears that an archer or fire-based spellcaster can function underwater with some hindrance. The Gunslinger, however, doesn't appear to have a work-around, unless of course gunpowder functions differently than it does in the real world (or differently than nonmagical fire or alchemist's fire).
I would think that the gun simply would not fire without some sort of protective magic. Most DMs would either be considerate enough to not put a Gunslinger's group in that kind of situation or allow for some quick-fix measures to help out such as letting the mage create an air bubble around the gun via Prestidigitation or maybe Water Breathing. Granted those equate to house rules and don't really solve the problem for everyone.
first off, metal cartridges fire under water just fine. Ive done it before. It's a myth that they dont.
Flint lock? well that wont fire reliably if it rains.
This is a fantasy game, you wont be able to shoot bows under water in RL either. The gunslinger will not be under any special rules than any other character class in any adverse condition.
Gunpowder, even in RL does NOT explode with the application of fire, it simply burns really fast. People watch too many hollywood movies about gunpowder and fire. TNT (dynamite) is what hollywood (in the early days) used to blow up things where you saw 'kegs of gunpowder'.
The heat or open flames necessary to spontaneously combust blackpowder would also consume arrows like twigs, and scrolls like balled up news paper. The items on character, get the characters saves, they are not "unattended" so if the character is surviving, so is his gear, as per RAW.
Underwater rules exist, and will likely have some updates for firearms in the UC sourcebook, but im 100% positive there will not be an entry saying the don't work at all.
Especially since I've taken a pair of glock 18c's underwater and fired them on fully auto, just for the kicks and to proove some people wrong on their theory craft.
Ak 47s have been fully loaded and submerged underwater for weeks and fired just fine.
How are they going to rule the flint lock stuff? Like i said, rain would ruin your day, in RL, where do you draw the line?
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Hence my questions. As a GM, I'm fine with adjudicating that gunpowder in Pathfinder can be used in vacuums and underwater, and doesn't ignite when exposed to flame. As GM, I run the game.
But as a player of a Gunslinger, I'm less comfortable having no clear rules to guide me (and the GM) in such hostile environments.
I can easily see a game devolve into arguments about these issues -- particularly because everyone has his own notion of how gunpowder should work based on movies, military service, participation in Civil War Reenacting, etc.
first off, metal cartridges fire under water just fine. Ive done it before. It's a myth that they dont.
Flint lock? well that wont fire reliably if it rains.
This is a fantasy game, you wont be able to shoot bows under water in RL either. The gunslinger will not be under any special rules than any other character class in any adverse condition.
Gunpowder, even in RL does NOT explode with the application of fire, it simply burns really fast. People watch too many hollywood movies about gunpowder and fire. TNT (dynamite) is what hollywood (in the early days) used to blow up things where you saw 'kegs of gunpowder'.
The heat or open flames necessary to spontaneously combust blackpowder would also consume arrows like twigs, and scrolls like balled up news paper. The items on character, get the characters saves, they are not "unattended" so if the character is surviving, so is his gear, as per RAW.
Underwater rules exist, and will likely have some updates for firearms in the UC sourcebook, but im 100% positive there will not be an entry saying the don't work at all.
Especially since I've taken a pair of glock 18c's underwater and fired them on fully auto, just for the kicks and to proove some people wrong on their theory craft.Ak 47s have been fully loaded and submerged underwater for weeks and fired just fine.
How are they going to rule the flint lock stuff? Like i said, rain would ruin your day, in RL, where do you draw the line?
I'm not terribly knowledgeable when it comes to guns (basically I understand the premise of how they work and which way to point them), so when it comes to the advanced firearms like revolvers and rifles this may work fine.
However, it is my understanding that most games will use the early versions and I would think complete submersion in water would be a pretty good place to draw said line without adequate protection to maintain verisimilitude.
The APG has the spell Life Bubble. I'd say it'd probably let a person use pretty much any firearm in any situation, with maybe the -2 penalty per 5' thing that projectile weapons have.
Which makes sense from all the testing I've seen in mythbusters (underwater shooting shortens the range a lot).
I guess it's a good thing gunslingers use BLACK POWDER rather than GUNPOWDER. The former is a fictional creation with its own properties, whereas the latter is the real stuff, which for some reason unknown to me, you guys seem determined to waste your time discussing.
There is nothing anywhere that says the alchemical creation known as BLACK POWDER is ruined by water or even fire. Unlike gunpowder, black powder IS extremely explosive. The rules are extremely clear in that regard.
I guess it's a good thing gunslingers use BLACK POWDER rather than GUNPOWDER. The former is a fictional creation with its own properties, whereas the latter is the real stuff, which for some reason unknown to me, you guys seem determined to waste your time discussing.
There is nothing anywhere that says the alchemical creation known as BLACK POWDER is ruined by water or even fire. Unlike gunpowder, black powder IS extremely explosive. The rules are extremely clear in that regard.
Black powder is synonymous with the gun powder used in archaic firearms according to wikipedia. So the previous points stand, Ravingdork.
"black powder" when speaking the 'jargon' of guns is speaking about the older stuff that is smokey and more cantankerous. There is smokeless powder and other types, cordite, the list goes on, all of the are collectively just "gun powder".
As I have said, and we went around about this in Round 1 already...
US Army Rangers have a saying to each other when they split it, they say "keep your powder dry" this really means nothing to a modern solider in terms of his bullets. It means "take care of yourself and your equipment and I'll see you alive again" it's kind of the equivalent of "may the force be with you"
This saying is traced back to Roger's Rangers and Ethan Allen's Green Mountain Rangers when the saying "keep your powder dry" meant, exactly that. Rain, river crossings, dampness all effected the performance of ones powder and misfires were common because of it.
It a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean, they all come back from being submerged and try to shoot each other but their pistols don't work, because they are wet.
The Game Dev's have simulated this with the misfire chance. Assuming a trained gunslinger has knowledge of his powder, and protects it from the elements, there is still a chance for mishap, and there you go.
One more time, This is a fantasy game, If we can fire the weapons under water in RL, why not in a Fantasy game. Again, way too much reality for the fantasy world. And what Raving Dork said was kinda true....maybe the recipe for gunpowder in the game is water proof? We don't know what makes it as no recipe has been published.
As for gunpowder or blackpowder being explosive...IT IS NOT. It simply burns at a high rate, the "explosion" cones from the rapid expansion of gases inside the gun chamber, which forces the projectile out with great velocity, with is only achieved after the powder is rammed in with a patch and ball keeping it snug and tight.
If you just poured the powder down the barrel and tried to shoot it you would get a "puff" and be lucky if the ball reached the end of the barrel at all.
That's what loose, unobstructed powder does "puff" that's it.
DCironlich...are you asking this because you want your DM to have something to look at to make an educated decision? Or are you asking this so you have ammunition for an argument?
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what people on these boards say. Doesn't matter how it works in real life. Doesn't matter what the developers say on the matter. If your GM has a way he wants to run it, then that's how it works in his game. Do you trust your GM enough to make a decision to keep the game interesting and fun, or do you think your GM is going to try and screw you?
Reason 578 to never get on a boat (or visit the plane of water).
But getting on a boat almost completely protects you from the entire divination school.
Even if it is referring to the "old gunpowder" rather than some new alchemical item, you can't take anything for granted. The rules are clear in that it explodes in the game, even if it doesn't in real life. What other properties might have changed?
For all we know it is water proof by design.
I prefer to believe, and I believe it to be the intent of the designers, that black powder is a separate alchemical substance with its own properties rather than simply being "old gunpowder."
Even if it is referring to the "old gunpowder" rather than some new alchemical item, you can't take anything for granted. The rules are clear in that it explodes in the game, even if it doesn't in real life. What other properties might have changed?
For all we know it is water proof by design.
I prefer to believe, and I believe it to be the intent of the designers, that black powder is a separate alchemical substance with its own properties rather than simply being "old gunpowder."
like samurai with shields...just because it has a similar name and seems the same, doesn't mean it is the same... I think when it all comes out int he wash...gunpowder is going to be waterproof and isn't going to blow up when a dragon breaths on you.
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I would like an answer from the designers. I appreciate that all of you are as ignorant as me how this gunpowder or black powder is supposed to function in extreme environments in the game.
I've read numerous posts about other aspects of the Gunslinger. Most have focused on pickles and other odd and obscure aspects. No other thread has focused on this issue.
I hope to keep this thread alive until Monday so that the designers can address this issue.
To Fraust: Trust but verify.