i was just curious if anyone could answer a question, why is it that there are no divine caster classes with half base attack?
2 major reasons I can think of.
1. Legacy. In earlier additions clerics were always at least partially martial. So when they convereted to 3.0 they gave them 3/4 BAB to represent this.
2. Cleric spells suck. Seriously. And they always have. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but most of those are buffs for martial characters that would be wasted on someone with 1/2 BAB.
2 major reasons I can think of.
1. Legacy. In earlier additions clerics were always at least partially martial. So when they convereted to 3.0 they gave them 3/4 BAB to represent this.
2. Cleric spells suck. Seriously. And they always have. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but most of those are buffs for martial characters that would be wasted on someone with 1/2 BAB.
Cleric spells are great but you are right about the buffs part. Back 2E and AD&D, now then Cleric spells really did suck. Basically all you did was heal because anything else wasn't worth it for the most part.
Because divine classes get all the love.
Clerical spells do not suck.
Cleric spells are great but you are right about the buffs part. Back 2E and AD&D, now then Cleric spells really did suck. Basically all you did was heal because anything else wasn't worth it for the most part.2 major reasons I can think of.
1. Legacy. In earlier additions clerics were always at least partially martial. So when they convereted to 3.0 they gave them 3/4 BAB to represent this.
2. Cleric spells suck. Seriously. And they always have. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but most of those are buffs for martial characters that would be wasted on someone with 1/2 BAB.
Let me clarify:
Offensive cleric spells suck.They get very little in the way of battlefield control or damage, and those that they do get are generally significantly weaker than equivalent level arcane spells. They do have a couple good save or sucks, but you can't really rely on those IME.
I know several people that prefer clerical damage spells over any other since they come with so many nice rider effects.
Spiritual weapon for example hits without your help and can hit multiple times in a round for force damage. Sound Burst can stun for a round, and chaos hammer and the like add in slow, or other effects. Flame strike is going to get something to go through without any issue. Boneshatter is rather nasty, while hellfire ray is a bit high of level it also splits its damage types.
At higher levels of cleric for those looking to blast intensify spell becomes something of a must though simply to help overcome the low damage caps on the spells.
Battlefield control does come in later for clerics but it comes in with a vengeance too: Wall of stone at level 5, antilife shell at level 6, blade barrier, repulsion at level 7, and antimagic field at level 8 as well as dimension lock.
Fire storm, Holy Word, Symbol of Weakness (and several others -- but these are expensive!), stormbolts, Energy Drain, Implosion, and Storm of Vengeance can be very nice as well.
Holy word, destruction, and banishment can all be nice offensive spells, and finally you have the one spell that is really nice:
Miracle -- after all it has no expense anymore for the normal stuff and gives you a huge choice of options.
None of this even mentions all the spells you can bring in with your domain choices either.
Now I will agree that there is a lack of breathe in divine spells -- but not depth.
I have always found it a bit personally aggravating that arcane casters have more effective ways of dealing with undead than divine casters...has anyone else experienced something similar?
I know several people that prefer clerical damage spells over any other since they come with so many nice rider effects.
Spiritual weapon for example hits without your help and can hit multiple times in a round for force damage. Sound Burst can stun for a round, and chaos hammer and the like add in slow, or other effects. Flame strike is going to get something to go through without any issue. Boneshatter is rather nasty, while hellfire ray is a bit high of level it also splits its damage types.
At higher levels of cleric for those looking to blast intensify spell becomes something of a must though simply to help overcome the low damage caps on the spells.
Battlefield control does come in later for clerics but it comes in with a vengeance too: Wall of stone at level 5, antilife shell at level 6, blade barrier, repulsion at level 7, and antimagic field at level 8 as well as dimension lock.
Fire storm, Holy Word, Symbol of Weakness (and several others -- but these are expensive!), stormbolts, Energy Drain, Implosion, and Storm of Vengeance can be very nice as well.
Holy word, destruction, and banishment can all be nice offensive spells, and finally you have the one spell that is really nice:
Miracle -- after all it has no expense anymore for the normal stuff and gives you a huge choice of options.
None of this even mentions all the spells you can bring in with your domain choices either.
Now I will agree that there is a lack of breathe in divine spells -- but not depth.
Spiritual Weapon is only useful against incorporeal creatures IME. Its rather pathetic damage with a significant miss chance. As a 2nd level spell, you can't even use it to reliably take out goblins. I would rather trade it out for healing later and attack the round I would cast it.
Sound burst does irrelevant damage. Its a decent AoE stun, but you have to get lucky to kill anything with it, and most mobs you will be using it against are 1-shot by the melee characters already. When you compare it to wizard AoE stuns, like colorspray, it comes up lacking.Chaos Hammer, and all the alignment spells, are hampered by needing to know the alignment of your foes. Even if they are targetting the opposing alignment, the damage is terrible for that level spell, and all the secondary affects can be found in lower level arcane spells that will hit everyone, not just opposing alignment.
Flame Strike is a 5th level spell with less AoE and equal damage to a 3rd level spell. Sure it has the advantage of being half Holy, but that rarely comes up IME.
I can't find Boneshatter anywhere in the prd, so I'm not really sure what it is.
Then you say them must add metamagic onto these spells that are already too high of a level to be cost effective.
Slay Living is the first damage dealing spell that I really consider on par with a wizard, but the fort save on it really hampers it, droping its damage 1/4 instead of 1/2. The later ones you mention aren't bad, but they are also high level spells.
I'm not saying that cleric spells are bad, but when you compare the offensive ones to equivalent level wizard ones, they come up severely lacking. They need something to do besides spam combat spells, which is why they have 3/4 BAB and armor.
The cleric spell list from 2nd level on isn't too bad except that the vast majority of spells that require saves target the same save, will, with a handful that target fortitude and next to none that target reflex. This limits the opponents that clerics can effectively target offensively severely. 1st level has good utility spells, but at 1st level, the duration for most of them aren't worth the trouble, though while going through the mid levels, they can be a nice boost. Also, the buff spells are great, but until you get the mass versions, they are almost all touch, which not a deal breaker by itself, can be annoying at times.
I would suggest that color spray is completely useless compared to sound burst which is longer ranged, with higher DC. Spiritual weapon is one that seems to get a lot of use around here (I don't play divine characters too much so it's not me casting it) -- people like to throw it out there the first round and use it basically as a DoT (damage over time), with its multiple swings and good wisdom score it doesn't seem to have too much problem hitting usually, but that could just be us.
Knowing the alignment isn't really that difficult in most campaigns -- it isn't guaranteed I'll agree but then you have no guarantee you'll know the energy resistances of your foes either -- so I put it on par there.
I'm not saying you must add in intensify spell -- but it does help -- I feel the secondary effects more than make up for the damage especially when all damage spells deal lackluster damage in the first place.
Put me in the cleric rocks category.
With inflict wounds and harm needing a touch attack and will save, these are used extensively in my campaign.
And if you need more offensive flair, make yourself an elemental cleric and take fire, water, air domains.
But you still have to use up potentially great offensive spells as healing for whining PCs.
Oh well....
I would suggest that color spray is completely useless compared to sound burst which is longer ranged, with higher DC. Spiritual weapon is one that seems to get a lot of use around here (I don't play divine characters too much so it's not me casting it) -- people like to throw it out there the first round and use it basically as a DoT (damage over time), with its multiple swings and good wisdom score it doesn't seem to have too much problem hitting usually, but that could just be us.
Knowing the alignment isn't really that difficult in most campaigns -- it isn't guaranteed I'll agree but then you have no guarantee you'll know the energy resistances of your foes either -- so I put it on par there.
I'm not saying you must add in intensify spell -- but it does help -- I feel the secondary effects more than make up for the damage especially when all damage spells deal lackluster damage in the first place.
Based on the games i have played, color spray is one of the most cheesist and overpowered spells there are. seriously, that is not the spell to be comparing with the cleric list.
Based on the games i have played, color spray is one of the most cheesist and overpowered spells there are. seriously, that is not the spell to be comparing with the cleric list.I would suggest that color spray is completely useless compared to sound burst which is longer ranged, with higher DC. Spiritual weapon is one that seems to get a lot of use around here (I don't play divine characters too much so it's not me casting it) -- people like to throw it out there the first round and use it basically as a DoT (damage over time), with its multiple swings and good wisdom score it doesn't seem to have too much problem hitting usually, but that could just be us.
Knowing the alignment isn't really that difficult in most campaigns -- it isn't guaranteed I'll agree but then you have no guarantee you'll know the energy resistances of your foes either -- so I put it on par there.
I'm not saying you must add in intensify spell -- but it does help -- I feel the secondary effects more than make up for the damage especially when all damage spells deal lackluster damage in the first place.
Both spells are good for their level - color spray may be a bit strong for 1st level but not TOO strong. It's FAR more limited than sound burst though - it requires the caster to get into melee, can sometimes be hard to target without affecting teammates, and doesn't work on a lot of enemies (undead, vermin and the like).
Color spray is a good 1st level spell, sound burst is a decent 2nd level spell, regardless of class that casts them. Although, if the cleric got color spray it would be far better since they can survive in melee a bit.