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It seems that everyone else in my gaming group has come to the conclusion that being a Antihero (a character that doesn't use hero points) automatically makes you a a@%&&#$. Best example would be how during a combat session, our wizard decided there wasn't much he could do so he just sat down and started reading his spellbook during combat. The players justify it as Antiheroes are a~!~&!@s. Is this how it's supposed to be or are my players just making excuses?
An antihero is not a jerk. It's just not a typical hero. Sure, they can be a jerk...but so can any hero. All being an anti-hero means is that you are more flawed or not the typical hero-cliche.
Your players just sound like jerks. An antihero might be cowardly or greedy, or overly wrathful and severe. Sitting down and reading your spellbook during combat isn't being an anti-hero. It's just being lame and an attempt to be snarky and funny in front of the rest of the players.
No one in combat with a team trying to survive is going to sit down and read. Now....it would be different if the wizard deemed "these enemies" unworthy of his spells and thus only shot a crossbow into the fray ineffectually.
What it all really comes down to is if they are playing a consistent character, or simply using that mechanic to be goofy and lame.
However, if that's the campaign style they all want to play, then it might be good to retool things on your end to take advantage of that and maybe enjoy doing some of it yourself. It's all about what is going to be the most fun for the whole group.
Your players are just making excuses, being an antihero actually means using questionable sources of power towards ultimately good ends, like a demon summoner who fights to protect others. What the antihero part of hero points is, is a character less suited power wise to be a hero but does it anyways.
It looks like an excuse to me. An anti-hero is someone who intends well, but may take questionable actions to make it happen. Leaving the party to fend for themselves has nothing to do with a hero of any kind.
Hero points are a new concept to pathfinder anyway. Were they acting this way then also?
edit:Changed a "?" to a "."
Playing a caster right now my self. You spend 70% of all combat doing nothing and the other 30% being a bad a!%. It's just how casters work. Shooting a crossbow with 0 chance of hiting is a wast of time.
I play a lot of casters and I can't remember the last time I spent any time doing nothing in combat, let alone 70%. A caster should always look for a meaningful way to attempt to contribute, even if it isn't a spell.
If a character in my character's party decided to sit down in the middle of potentially lethal combat, I'd want to boot the character from the party in order to bring in someone who is a bit more of a team player. If I was GM'ing for a player who had his character not only break immersion but was actively be a jerk towards others, they wouldn't get any XP for not trying to contribute and take part, and after the game I'd have long talk with the player about what they want out of the game and how to get it without ruining fun for others.
Playing a caster right now my self. You spend 70% of all combat doing nothing and the other 30% being a bad a!%. It's just how casters work. Shooting a crossbow with 0 chance of hiting is a wast of time.I play a lot of casters and I can't remember the last time I spent any time doing nothing in combat, let alone 70%. A caster should always look for a meaningful way to attempt to contribute, even if it isn't a spell.
If a character in my character's party decided to sit down in the middle of potentially lethal combat, I'd want to boot the character from the party in order to bring in someone who is a bit more of a team player. If I was GM'ing for a player who had his character not only break immersion but was actively be a jerk towards others, they wouldn't get any XP for not trying to contribute and take part, and after the game I'd have long talk with the player about what they want out of the game and how to get it without ruining fun for others.
+1 on all acounts, if a player does not at least try to contribute to combat, they do not get any XP. As a player, I might shoot him myself.
When I play casters, I always contribute every round, even if I'm just firing off charges from a wand.
Playing a caster right now my self. You spend 70% of all combat doing nothing and the other 30% being a bad a!%. It's just how casters work. Shooting a crossbow with 0 chance of hiting is a wast of time.I play a lot of casters and I can't remember the last time I spent any time doing nothing in combat, let alone 70%. A caster should always look for a meaningful way to attempt to contribute, even if it isn't a spell.
If a character in my character's party decided to sit down in the middle of potentially lethal combat, I'd want to boot the character from the party in order to bring in someone who is a bit more of a team player. If I was GM'ing for a player who had his character not only break immersion but was actively be a jerk towards others, they wouldn't get any XP for not trying to contribute and take part, and after the game I'd have long talk with the player about what they want out of the game and how to get it without ruining fun for others.
+1 on all acounts, if a player does not at least try to contribute to combat, they do not get any XP. As a player, I might shoot him myself.
When I play casters, I always contribute every round, even if I'm just firing off charges from a wand.
Wand of Magic Missile CL 9: The only weapon a mage will ever need against anything without SR. Lasts a long time too. And only what...6750 GP?
Wand of Magic Missile CL 9: The only weapon a mage will ever need against anything without SR. Lasts a long time too. And only what...6750 GP?Playing a caster right now my self. You spend 70% of all combat doing nothing and the other 30% being a bad a!%. It's just how casters work. Shooting a crossbow with 0 chance of hiting is a wast of time.I play a lot of casters and I can't remember the last time I spent any time doing nothing in combat, let alone 70%. A caster should always look for a meaningful way to attempt to contribute, even if it isn't a spell.
If a character in my character's party decided to sit down in the middle of potentially lethal combat, I'd want to boot the character from the party in order to bring in someone who is a bit more of a team player. If I was GM'ing for a player who had his character not only break immersion but was actively be a jerk towards others, they wouldn't get any XP for not trying to contribute and take part, and after the game I'd have long talk with the player about what they want out of the game and how to get it without ruining fun for others.
+1 on all acounts, if a player does not at least try to contribute to combat, they do not get any XP. As a player, I might shoot him myself.
When I play casters, I always contribute every round, even if I'm just firing off charges from a wand.
Yup. Half that if you craft your own.
It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!
I know, right? Or some sort of "spell-like ability" that you could use several times per day.
It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!I know, right? Or some sort of "spell-like ability" that you could use several times per day.
Barring those options it'd be cool if you cold molotov someone for around 20 GP, or at least spend 50 hard earned coins on a some sort of bag containing a goo to tangle up the enemy.
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Someone that petulantly sits down and reads in the middle of combat isn't an antihero.
He's someone that just took a huge negative modifier to their AC and is currently broadcasting "EASY KILL" to every hostile entity that can see him.
On people thinking "antihero" has to mean "jerkass", I blame that on the further decay of words and people just plain not reading as much these days.
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I'm playing a Magus who owns a pipe and regularly smokes it during combat. This began mainly because we have a 7 PC party (+2 animal companions) and the DM likes to run encounters in 20X30 rooms. With large creatures.
Rather than trying to squeeze past 5 other melee characters (and 2 animal companions) into these overcrowded rooms, I said "Screw it. I'm taking a smoke break."
Gradually this became an RP thing. I now rarely act before the 3rd round of combat (unless the enemies are being particularly effective). My character's justification: "Why bother if the 5 fighters..." (not actually all fighters, just sarcasm) "...if the 5 fighters are going to steamroll the enemies in 2 or 3 rounds." Which they often do.
My party complains to no end, but I love it. I told one of them to let me go in front next time and I'll fight. He did so, and spent the next combat unable to find an open square in the 20X30 room and holding his action for 3 rounds. Meanwhile, I struck down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the dungeon tile. Needless to say, he resumed his position at the front of the line, and I resumed smoking.
Edit: And anything that tires to interrupt my smoke break is going to take an empowered Enervation to the face before receiving a 10d6 intensified shocking grasp enema. Delivered via a keen scimitar. That likes to crit.
Ooor if you could use the aforementioned cantrips to increase someone's saves, or attack a little for example...
Ooor if you could use the aforementioned cantrips to increase someone's saves, or attack a little for example...
Or, imagine if you will, a way to increase an allies to hit or AC without magic. are the kinds of things we need.
It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!
Those only make your party feel better about you not contributing. They don't actually contribute in a meaningful way. It's like playing the lottery, you still have the same chance of winning if you don't buy a ticket (within 8 decimal places anyway (more accurate than most precision tools))
It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!Those only make your party feel better about you not contributing. They don't actually contribute in a meaningful way. It's like playing the lottery, you still have the same chance of winning if you don't buy a ticket (within 8 decimal places anyway (more accurate than most precision tools))
At first level, 1-3 damage is means you can take out 1/4 of a monster's hp. More more if you are a draconic sorcerer or an evoker. If nothing else, it holds you over until you can afford a wand of magic missile at 2nd level.
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Someone that petulantly sits down and reads in the middle of combat isn't an antihero.
He's someone that just took a huge negative modifier to their AC and is currently broadcasting "EASY KILL" to every hostile entity that can see him.
Yeah.
Sitting down? Not looking at the combat?
That sounds like a textbook example of 'flat-footed' to me. In combat, bad things can happen to flat-footed foes...
Ooor if you could use the aforementioned cantrips to increase someone's saves, or attack a little for example...Or, imagine if you will, a way to increase an allies to hit or AC without magic. are the kinds of things we need.
Even better, there are feats, and even *traits* that can give you an extra +2 to Aid Other effects (in the Second Darkness Player's Guide), or allow you to Aid Other at range (in the Golarion Campaign Setting).
Heck, throwing a bag of caltrops or readying an action to hand a potion off to an ally in case he needs it, can be productive actions.
At first level, 1-3 damage is means you can take out 1/4 of a monster's hp. More more if you are a draconic sorcerer or an evoker. If nothing else, it holds you over until you can afford a wand of magic missile at 2nd level.It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!Those only make your party feel better about you not contributing. They don't actually contribute in a meaningful way. It's like playing the lottery, you still have the same chance of winning if you don't buy a ticket (within 8 decimal places anyway (more accurate than most precision tools))
And spend 750gp to do 1-2 extra damage? No extra damage if your a draconic sorcerer or an evoker? And by 3rd level, an acid splash is the same as doing nothing at all. You could use a 2nd level spell, but unless it's a tough fight, that spell saves the fighter maybe one hit. (i.e. drops one monster one round sooner) A cleric can patch that up with a 1st level spell. It's a matter of economy. You're better off saving your spells for fights the characters with unlimited offensive resources can't easily handle without you and nova.
I once a character actualy cast mend and presdignation in a fight because she got hit....but the fight was really over...and it fit the character.
But yeah...routinely using that as a excuse....as a anti-hero...very bad form. I mean I have flanked as a 1st level caster to help out(I had a pretty good AC) and such. I can fathom somebody not working to help out...heck does not matter hero...anti-hero..or villian...they just will be asked to leave.
@Quantum Steve: I hope eventualy your DM will leaarn how to build a encounter eventualy...and I don't blame your pipe smoking ways...though maybe you could point this out to your DM...and see if he can improve encounter design. Obviously he is not taking the hint.
Best example would be how during a combat session, our wizard decided there wasn't much he could do so he just sat down and started reading his spellbook during combat.
Oo, I'd love it if a player in one of my games did this. They'd be making a new character before the days was out.
I'm reminded of one of my earliest roleplaying experiences. We had a good GM who wanted to run a Vampire the Masquerade game. Unfortunately for him, we had no idea about the theme and atmosphere of the game and were thinking more along the lines of Dracula or the Count from Sesame Street. Ve may haf tokked like zis for a bit. Bluh! So, in order to help us understand what we were playing, the first session we did no roleplaying and the GM showed us Interview with a Vampire. It worked, we came up with some brilliant characters, and the campaign was awesome.
Have you considered doing something similar? Pick out some films or books with proper anti-heroes in and show them to the players. It might help.
Best example would be how during a combat session, our wizard decided there wasn't much he could do so he just sat down and started reading his spellbook during combat.Oo, I'd love it if a player in one of my games did this. They'd be making a new character before the days was out.
I'm reminded of one of my earliest roleplaying experiences. We had a good GM who wanted to run a Vampire the Masquerade game. Unfortunately for him, we had no idea about the theme and atmosphere of the game and were thinking more along the lines of Dracula or the Count from Sesame Street. Ve may haf tokked like zis for a bit. Bluh! So, in order to help us understand what we were playing, the first session we did no roleplaying and the GM showed us Interview with a Vampire. It worked, we came up with some brilliant characters, and the campaign was awesome.
Have you considered doing something similar? Pick out some films or books with proper anti-heroes in and show them to the players. It might help.
Van Helsing might be a good one, Hell Boy, Batman, those are the only ones I can think of right off hand.
Ooor if you could use the aforementioned cantrips to increase someone's saves, or attack a little for example...Or, imagine if you will, a way to increase an allies to hit or AC without magic. are the kinds of things we need.
Careful there... aid another is melee. I'm not sure if I want a character as skilled and disposed as thisone anywhere near to enemy... or if I want to be there at the same time. I'm not entirely sure who'd get that bonus :D
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And spend 750gp to do 1-2 extra damage? No extra damage if your a draconic sorcerer or an evoker? And by 3rd level, an acid splash is the same as doing nothing at all. You could use a 2nd level spell, but unless it's a tough fight, that spell saves the fighter maybe one hit. (i.e. drops one monster one round sooner) A cleric can patch that up with a 1st level spell. It's a matter of economy. You're better off saving your spells for fights the characters with unlimited offensive resources can't easily handle without you and nova.At first level, 1-3 damage is means you can take out 1/4 of a monster's hp. More more if you are a draconic sorcerer or an evoker. If nothing else, it holds you over until you can afford a wand of magic missile at 2nd level.It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!Those only make your party feel better about you not contributing. They don't actually contribute in a meaningful way. It's like playing the lottery, you still have the same chance of winning if you don't buy a ticket (within 8 decimal places anyway (more accurate than most precision tools))
It's a good thing you can't spend your action to prevent the enemy from taking any actions. That would be overpowered.
And spend 750gp to do 1-2 extra damage? No extra damage if your a draconic sorcerer or an evoker? And by 3rd level, an acid splash is the same as doing nothing at all. You could use a 2nd level spell, but unless it's a tough fight, that spell saves the fighter maybe one hit. (i.e. drops one monster one round sooner) A cleric can patch that up with a 1st level spell. It's a matter of economy. You're better off saving your spells for fights the characters with unlimited offensive resources can't easily handle without you and nova.At first level, 1-3 damage is means you can take out 1/4 of a monster's hp. More more if you are a draconic sorcerer or an evoker. If nothing else, it holds you over until you can afford a wand of magic missile at 2nd level.It's too bad there aren't any damage dealing cantrips. Maybe something cool like a ray of cold damage. Or an orb of acid. It'd be super cool if you could keep casting them, too!Those only make your party feel better about you not contributing. They don't actually contribute in a meaningful way. It's like playing the lottery, you still have the same chance of winning if you don't buy a ticket (within 8 decimal places anyway (more accurate than most precision tools))
1-2 damage per round at 3rd level is you didn't fast-heal anything mr. imp for example, but you can do that for free with a well-chosen cantrip ;)
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Someone that petulantly sits down and reads in the middle of combat isn't an antihero.
He's someone that just took a huge negative modifier to their AC and is currently broadcasting "EASY KILL" to every hostile entity that can see him.
Just to play the devil's advocate, in the middle of combat, you'd do well to focus on those who ARE being a threat, instead of some idiot who pulls out a book and starts reading. I would, however, rule that this provoked a free AoO from anyone within range...and possibly some people who weren't.
Antihero: a protagonist who lacks the attributes that make a heroic figure, as nobility of mind and spirit, a life or attitude marked by action or purpose, and the like.
Sounds *exactly* like an Antihero. Your 'reading wizard' meets pretty much all the qualifiers above... Bear in mind, being a jack-hole has nothing to do with it. Willy Loman (Death of a Salesman) is an Anti-Hero: He is a loser, one without hope, or recognition. He is however, the protagonist of the play.
Another way to measure an Antihero is whether or not the protagonist in question represents the ideals of his society: Superman is a Hero-he is handsome, strong, brave; what he does and what he is represents the very best that we hope to be. The Punisher is an Antihero-he is revenge obsessed, violent (to the extreme), and has very little that 'redeems' him (except he kills bad guys, and thrills readers ;) ). Frank Castle represents dark urges, and lack of respect for mainstream society and law.
As far as the *player* being an 'antihero' just let him know he's wrong: he's being a party pooper. :p
In any event, there are a million things he could be doing from round to round to help his buddies, or at least be better prepped for the future.
Enjoy your gaming :)
GNOME
Quotes Dictionary.com
That's a fair point. However, I cannot remember, but does the rules section in the PFCRB give a basic summation of what they mean by anti-hero? It was a while back I last read it but I thought they were going for more 'heroic, yet morally questionable.' That's the definition I think should be player if so, even though this may, in fact, be a total misuse of the term. To the OED!
EDIT: OED sez: A protagonist that does not displays traditional heroic attributes.
Well, that's clear cut. Sheesh.
Antihero: A PC can elect not to use the hero point system, instead relying more on his skills and abilities. Such characters do not receive hero points, regardless of the source, and can never benefit from their use. In exchange, such characters receive a bonus feat at 1st level. The option to allow such antiheroes in the game is subject to GM discretion.
Nope...no reference to sphincter-behavior here ;)
GNOME
Antihero: A PC can elect not to use the hero point system, instead relying more on his skills and abilities. Such characters do not receive hero points, regardless of the source, and can never benefit from their use. In exchange, such characters receive a bonus feat at 1st level. The option to allow such antiheroes in the game is subject to GM discretion.Nope...no reference to sphincter-behavior here ;)
GNOME
Well, that answers that then. I still reckon that jerktacular behaviour to the detriment of enjoying of the game by all (including the oft forgotten GM) should be cracked down on, but, technically speaking, interpreting an antihero as a metaphorical excretion port is an acceptable approximation. But perhaps not in the spirit of the game.
lol that could be true! The lying, cheating, thieving antihero (serious butt-hole-ery there!) would not long be welcomed in most parties. Trying to KY and Crowbar that kind of character into most campaigns is a recipe for disaster...
In regards to collapsing enjoyment, yeah. To be sure. "I aint havin' fun, so neither should you!" is a BS attitude, and that is oneshown by the player, not the PC. Maybe there is a bigger issue at hand?
*shrug* what do I know?
GNOME
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1D3 damage that requires you to hit with a range touch spell. So it becomes another way for me to wast time in combat. Your doing 1D3 damage as a Wizard and the fighter is doing 2D4+20 with his falchion. Im going to let the fighter get this one. My job as a wizard is not damage it's controling how the fight is going. If we are fighting low level stuff and the fighters can take it out in two rounds. If I cast any real spell it was just wasted. If I cast the same spell and we are up aganst a hard fight it is not wasted and I have it when it counts. Playing casters are not about casting or killing every thing. There power comes from being able to determan the out come of any battle befor it starts. In order to do this you need the right spells and have them ready. Not wasted on the monsters that are easy. My curent caster hase used 0 to 2 spell per combat. Every spell that I have used changes the out come of the battle. There is no reason after I cast a spell that makes it easy for use to win to keap casting.
1d3 acid damage > nothing.Also, how much of a waste is it if you cast a cantrip? You could cast a cantrip a round for TWENTY FOUR HOURS and still not run out. They're amazing like that. The posibility to do.SOMETHING is far superior to guaranteed nothing.
Wand of guaranteed 100 points of damage? 750 gold? I'll take that.
5.6x10^-9 % chance of winning $10 million > than a 0% chance, but not measurably so.
1d3 damage is not going to end combat even a single round sooner and it's not going to save a single member of your party a single hp or per day ability.
If being a jerk and not participating in combat is more entertaining to you than being ineffective in combat with free spells, or wasting resources that could have been saved for a fight where they'd actually make a difference, then the possibility of doing ALMOST NOTHING is inferior to having more fun.
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1D3 damage that requires you to hit with a range touch spell. So it becomes another way for me to wast time in combat. Your doing 1D3 damage as a Wizard and the fighter is doing 2D4+20 with his falchion. Im going to let the fighter get this one. My job as a wizard is not damage it's controling how the fight is going.
Okay, so when you don't need to cast any win spels to control the battelfield, what do you do on your turn?
An optional variant of an optional variant? How dare it be imperfectly balanced!
See, the thing is this is D&D. As a DM, I have seen many a critter get down to one HP, and still have an attack action left before the party kills it. As a player in Kingmaker, My toon ( gawd, I love that) has been down to 1 hp three times so far. ( just finished first mod )
So, 1d3 can make a HUGE difference. Daze can make a HUGE difference. And no matter how tough the critter is you always have a 5% chance to hit.
And if you are talking about later on in levels, buy a wand of missles or something else. Putting things down quickly, making sure critter has lower HP or no actions to use is always been important in D&D.
Greg
Who does this? I mean seriously, combat takes time doesnt it? Like actual real world time? Do you really enjoy not playing the game for a half hour while other people do stuff? I play casters all the time, and I have never done this. I always do SOMETHING even in 3.5 where I didnt have a ton of extra minor resources to manage the 15 minute workday. This just baffles me to be honest. I am all for letting the BSF do the heavy lifting, but to do nothing just seems boring to me.
It is clear there are larger issues here. There are a plentitude of reasons players become disruptive. They can all be addressed the same way. Talk to the player. Find out what is really going on.
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5.6x10^-9 % chance of winning $10 million > than a 0% chance, but not measurably so.
1d3 damage is not going to end combat even a single round sooner and it's not going to save a single member of your party a single hp or per day ability.
If being a jerk and not participating in combat is more entertaining to you than being ineffective in combat with free spells, or wasting resources that could have been saved for a fight where they'd actually make a difference, then the possibility of doing ALMOST NOTHING is inferior to having more fun.
If a bad guy is down to a couple of hp when his turn comes around, he gets to smack somebody, and he's every bit as combat effective as he was when he was at full hp.
Your couple of points of damage could have taken him out before he could attack someone.
I've had times when the character I was playing wasn't the ideal build for a given encounter, but I've never felt that not contributing to the game was a viable option for me, or anyone else.
If your character isn't contributing to the game at all, maybe he should stay home.
Your DM and fellow players are all being unreasonably nice, by giving your character any XP, or any share of the treasure, respectively.
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If your character isn't contributing to the game at all, maybe he should stay home.
I think of it more as if your character isn't looking for every opportunity to give his team an edge, and has options that literally cost him nothing in resources (cantrips/aid another) to provide, but chooses not to use them, the team should call him on it eventually.
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Personally, if things are going our way and we don't need a heal or a buff, my oracle stands there and shouts encouragement.
GO GET 'EM LADS!