i was just curious, with all the base classes out there now is there an ability score not represented as a primary ability score for a class.
all I really can think is constitution but i could be wrong on this....
constitution is pretty much a primary ability score for all characters since it helps with survivability but you are right there is no class that uses constitution as its primary ability score
constitution is pretty much a primary ability score for all characters since it helps with survivability but you are right there is no class that uses constitution as its primary ability score
I can see going low con with a lot of characters. There are enough ways to make up for it.
true
There is no way to make up for a low Con score. There are ways to make your character tougher to kill, but none of them can make up for a low starting Con.
I agree 100% Your character WILL take damage unespectedly. Plus, you need to stay alive long enough to get healed eventually.
The Barbarian is the closest class to having CON as a primary, since your rounds of rage per day is partially based off your CON score. It doesn't make much difference though.
i think i agree with you 100%
There is no way to make up for a low Con score. There are ways to make your character tougher to kill, but none of them can make up for a low starting Con.
I'm not sure that's entirely true.
1) Toughness
2) Great Fortitude
3) Being a dwarf
4) +1 hit point for favored class
5) Improved Great Fortitude
6) The less you get hit, the less you need to worry about your hit points and many poisons. Improving AC and/or miss chances helps a lot
I would be leery about going too low with Constitution but if you plan for it right, you can probably do fine with a score less than 10. The higher your hit die, the more you may be able to deal with depending on your build.
I wasn't saying dump constitution, more like, you could get away with a 10 for some characters.
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Yes it's entirely true. None what you mentionded can make up for starting with a 10 Con. I don't care what class your playing. I like to call people that start with 10 Con what they are. One hit wonders. You get hit or worse get hit with a crit and your dead. Nothing can make up for starting with a low Con score.
1) Toughness ( 3hp at level 1 +1 hp per level after level 3)
You just used a feat to fill in a gap made by have a low Con. And it's a feat that you could have used for anything else.
2) Great Foritude (+2 Fort Saves)
You have now used two feat to fill in for haven a low con. And there not optinal if you have a low Con.
3) Dwarf ???? Realy Realy I play alot of dwarfs. If I see any one play a dwarf and they don't have a 16Con mini. I make fun of them just becous I can.
4) Favord Class +1HP
Every one gets it. This dose not help your case.
5) AC is not HP (AC helps your HP but dose not replace them.)
Yes AC pre level 10 you can do and still hit hard. Post level 10 you can have a AC that matters or you can hit hard. And there is area of effect spells.
@Calagnar: So, how do you determine your starting attribute scores?
Yes it's entirely true. None what you mentionded can make up for starting with a 10 Con. I don't care what class your playing. I like to call people that start with 10 Con what they are. One hit wonders. You get hit or worse get hit with a crit and your dead. Nothing can make up for starting with a low Con score.
1) Toughness ( 3hp at level 1 +1 hp per level after level 3)
You just used a feat to fill in a gap made by have a low Con. And it's a feat that you could have used for anything else.
2) Great Foritude (+2 Fort Saves)
You have now used two feat to fill in for haven a low con. And there not optinal if you have a low Con.
3) Dwarf ???? Realy Realy I play alot of dwarfs. If I see any one play a dwarf and they don't have a 16Con mini. I make fun of them just becous I can.
4) Favord Class +1HP
Every one gets it. This dose not help your case.
5) AC is not HP (AC helps your HP but dose not replace them.)
Yes AC pre level 10 you can do and still hit hard. Post level 10 you can have a AC that matters or you can hit hard. And there is area of effect spells.
You can hand wave all of those away as much as you want but the fact remains that a 10 Con won't necessarily be the death of your character. A well played and well built character can deal with his flaws.
You said that it could not be made up. You were wrong. He can easily take the first few levels to deal with his flaw and then focus on his strengths. His tactics would be very different than a character that focuses on soaking up damage.
I'm willing to bet that a viable character of any class can be built with only a 10 Con (after racial adjustments). He would be able to deal with most level appropriate threats in the Bestiary. All of this assumes he is in a party of 4. If you want, I can build one of any class of any level. I can even keep it Core only.
paladins can get away with a 10 constitution. Swift lay on hands. Once you get spells, take heroic defiance from the APG. You have plenty of hit points, you just get them from your charisma.
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constitution is pretty much a primary ability score for all characters since it helps with survivability but you are right there is no class that uses constitution as its primary ability score
The closest that exists is the Tantrist from Book of Erotic Fantasy, where Constitution is one its casting stats. :)
You just used a feat to fill in a gap made by have a low Con. And it's a feat that you could have used for anything else.
2) Great Foritude (+2 Fort Saves)
You have now used two feat to fill in for haven a low con. And there not optinal if you have a low Con.
Sure, but there are always tradeoffs.
If by taking that CON down a bit you managed to get your sorcerer's CHR from 15 to 16, the +1 kick on save DCs is mechanically equivalent to all 8 Spell Focus feats. You traded two feats for eight, plus other benefits! That's a great trade.
If that seems a little ridiculous, so does what you're saying.
I made a homebrew class for fun that was con based, it was something you might find in the book of vile darkness, he rended souls and used them to cast spells, and required a certain con to take the pain of it. It was horribly unbalanced so I thought it would be a fun NPC only class.
Also a buddy of mine tried a monk using CON as a dump stat, we had a 25 point buy so he had incredible stats because he dumped con and cha, making his dex and wisdom so high he rarely got hit, he bit the dust though, when a dragon popped up and he started taking damage.
@Calagnar: So, how do you determine your starting attribute scores?My group uses 15 point buy, or 4D6 drop lowest.
So, with 15 point buy archer, how do you have a high con and still have enough left over for all the other necessities (Like dex for to hit and armor class, or str for damage)?
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It's called dump stats. I know some people don't like them. With a 15 point buy you need to. This will make your character weak in some areas. Just know what they are befor you start. The group only hase one character right now with a Stat above 17. It's The fighter that dumped Int,Wis,and Cha to bump up Str and Con.
Human Fighter
Str 14 (5points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 14 (5points)
Int 7 (-4points)(7or8 in this stat is the same amount of skill points. For a human figther.)
Wis 12 (2points)
Cha 10 (0points)
Human Ranger
Str 14 (5Points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 14 (5points)
Int 10 (0points)
Wis 12 (2points)
Cha 7 (-4points)
My curent character.
Human Oracle of Battle Level 1
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 14
HP: 11 (we use max starting HP.)
Curse: Haunted
Feat: Improved Initiative, Exta Revelation War Sight
Revelation: Skill at Arms
Traits: Reactionary, Vagabond Child
Skills: Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, Knowlage History
Spells: 1st level: Cure Light Wounds, Bless, Divine Favor.
Weapon: Bardiche, Scimitar, or Long bow
It's called dump stats. I know some people don't like them. With a 15 point buy you need to. This will make your character weak in some areas. Just know what they are befor you start. The group only hase one character right now with a Stat above 17. It's The fighter that dumped Int,Wis,and Cha to bump up Str and Con.
Human Fighter
Str 14 (5points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 14 (5points)
Int 7 (-4points)(7or8 in this stat is the same amount of skill points. For a human figther.)
Wis 12 (2points)
Cha 10 (0points)
Human Ranger
Str 14 (5Points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 14 (5points)
Int 10 (0points)
Wis 12 (2points)
Cha 7 (-4points)My curent character.
Human Oracle of Battle Level 1
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 14
HP: 11 (we use max starting HP.)
Curse: Haunted
Feat: Improved Initiative, Exta Revelation War Sight
Revelation: Skill at Arms
Traits: Reactionary, Vagabond Child
Skills: Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, Knowlage History
Spells: 1st level: Cure Light Wounds, Bless, Divine Favor.
Weapon: Bardiche, Scimitar, or Long bow
I assume something like this is out of the question? Feats are meant to shore up weak points or improve strengths. You cannot just create more weak points (dump stats) and only improve strengths. Also, a 14 charisma with an oracle? I hope you never lose your stat boosting item...
Human Fighter
Str 14 (5points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 13 (3points)
Int 10 (0points)
Wis 10 (0points)
Cha 10 (0points)
Human Ranger
Str 14 (5Points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 12 (2points)
Int 10 (0points)
Wis 11 (1points)
Cha 10 (0points)
Human Oracle of Battle Level 1
Str 16 (5points +2 human bonus )
Dex 12 (2points)
Con 13 (3points)
Int 10 (0points)
Wis 10 (0points)
Cha 14 (5points)
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You want to start with your primary stat as a odd number. This why you can put all your points per level in to one stat. How meny times if ever dose your DM ever take away equipment? I have hade it hapen maby 6 times in my 20+ years of of playing. Plus with a 14 Cha I can still cast 4th level and below spells. So it wont realy affect play untill I hit level 10. By that time +2 items will be easy to find. I know what the weakness of the build is. I know as well what it can do. I did not make this character by it's self. One of the guys I game with made the other half of this character first. The person in front of me is a Fighter wealding a Heavy Flail with trip. And is going to pick up disarm, and sunder. So front rank is a heavy flail wealding fighter wiht trip, disarm, and sunder. Second rank is a oracle wealding a fauchard with trip. This alows me the oracle to help with damage but removes most concentration checks. At level 2 I can start casting enlarge person on the two of us (Fighter First). This will put him at a large size for triping huge monsters. See I did not shore up my weakness by my self. We made two characters that fill in the weak points of each other.
You want to start with your primary stat as a odd number. This why you can put all your points per level in to one stat.
... and if you're assuming that you will reach level 20 AND that most of your play time will take place at that level somehow, then that would be a good reason.
But I don't think that's ever really the case.
A character with an even primary stat who puts all of his points into that stat (possibly until level 20) has a higher modifier for that stat from levels 1-3, from 8-11, and from 16-19. 8-11 alone will be an awfully long stretch of most campaigns.
Starting even might mean that that theoretical level 20 stat booster gets wasted but really how many campaigns are 1-20?
Starting Odd gives you +1 to modifiers at 4,12,20
Starting Even gives you +1 to modifiers at 8,16
So assuming you have a +2 item by 6th level and should reasonably get a +4 item at 12 that period of time from 6th level to 12 level can be somewhat long without a stat upgrade.
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Nope I plan on hiting 12. How meny real campains or adventures are played past level 16 ? And if there going to 16 most will continue on to 20. So with a starting of 17 that will put me at a base of 20 for level 12. Some what long but over all the chances of you get a +4 stat item. You will probly get one by level 10.
My DM is content with magic items that give odd stat boni. Solves that "start even" or "start odd" problem.
As for constitution, no, it´s definitely no basic stat. Even tanks will prefer strength since a tank has to do damage (or he will be ignored). You want fights to end quickly (especially ´cause your casters only have a limited amount of "good" spells), so you go offensive. Consti is defensive. No reason to neglect it but if the rescued villagers give you a choice between six items that all increase on stat by + 2, you won´t choose the consti item (supposed you do not have stat increasing items or other slot taking items yet) and that is what makes a primary stat.
In 4e, one might choose the consti item since consti is active in 4e, which makes consti a primary stat in 4e.
all I really can think is constitution but i could be wrong on this....
I think Con is the Barbarian's key stat. Their key class feature, rage, is based on Con. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be their highest stat.
You want to start with your primary stat as a odd number. This why you can put all your points per level in to one stat. How many times if ever dose your DM ever take away equipment? I have had it happen maybe 6 times in my 20+ years of of playing. Plus with a 14 Cha I can still cast 4th level and below spells. So it wont really affect play until I hit level 10. By that time +2 items will be easy to find. I know what the weakness of the build is. I know as well what it can do. I did not make this character by it's self. One of the guys I game with made the other half of this character first. The person in front of me is a Fighter wielding a Heavy Flail with trip. And is going to pick up disarm, and sunder. So front rank is a heavy flail wielding fighter with trip, disarm, and sunder. Second rank is a oracle wielding a fauchard with trip. This allows me the oracle to help with damage but removes most concentration checks. At level 2 I can start casting enlarge person on the two of us (Fighter First). This will put him at a large size for tripping huge monsters. See I did not shore up my weakness by my self. We made two characters that fill in the weak points of each other.
You have all planned out, don't you? That is amazing, until something happens to the fighter (in game or out, ask me about pirates sometime). A 14 charisma will affect you at level 6 when you are not getting bonus spells, earlier if you plan on using any spell that allow a save. In my 12+ years and every version of D&D plus pathfinder to date, I can say I have had my items stolen a lot more than 6 times.
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All of the spells im using are healing, self buffing, restoration, and remove _____. And a 14 Cha still grats me the one spell I need to be at full function in combat Divine Power. And I have back up plans as well I'm going to be carrying a scimitar, heavy shield, heavy mace, and long bow. I won't look much like a healer. Thes was about 5 min to come up with the character concept. 2HR of number crunching. I made this character to fill in for what the fighter did not have.
All of the spells im using are healing, self buffing, restoration, and remove _____. And a 14 Cha still grats me the one spell I need to be at full function in combat Divine Power. And I have back up plans as well I'm going to be carrying a scimitar, heavy shield, heavy mace, and long bow. I won't look much like a healer. Thes was about 5 min to come up with the character concept. 2HR of number crunching. I made this character to fill in for what the fighter did not have.
I am the other way around, 2 hours to come up with a good and fun character, 5-10 minutes of number crunching. I don't feel any love for this character, no life. It just feels like a bunch of numbers. I think I am wasting my time...
all I really can think is constitution but i could be wrong on this....I think Con is the Barbarian's key stat. Their key class feature, rage, is based on Con. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be their highest stat.
ya I am still new to melee classes in general I mainly am a spell caster or a gunslinger. looking into it there really no stat that is not use...
It's called dump stats. I know some people don't like them. With a 15 point buy you need to. This will make your character weak in some areas. Just know what they are befor you start. The group only hase one character right now with a Stat above 17. It's The fighter that dumped Int,Wis,and Cha to bump up Str and Con.
Human Fighter
Str 14 (5points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 14 (5points)
Int 7 (-4points
Wis 12 (2points)
Cha 10 (0points)Human Ranger
Str 14 (5Points)
Dex 17 (7points +2Human bonus)
Con 14 (5points)
Int 10 (0points)
Wis 12 (2points)
Cha 7 (-4points)My curent character.
Human Oracle of Battle Level 1
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 14
snipped
Sorry for being rude, but I always find it amusing when the first level caster ends up with a poorer Will save than the fighter.
Anway, I actually like your 15, 14, 14, 12, 10, 7 spread here. It gives your character a flaw for some neccesary power. The usual attitude for a lot of people here is to tank everything you don't need and if you don't start with an 18+2racial in your caster stat then you're an idiot. I hate that.
I have nothing against a character with a 20 stat, only when you dump senselessly for it, an 18 in 15 point buy is unrealistic.
EDIT: I meant before racial bonuses.
I have nothing against a character with a 20 stat, only when you dump senselessly for it, an 18 in 15 point buy is unrealistic.
EDIT: I meant before racial bonuses.
I've seen people do it in every 15 point buy game I've played.
(Although I probably won't do it myself unless I'm playing a wizard. Or maybe some kind of two-handed-weapon melee guy wherein I already know someone else in the party will be set up to cover my weakness.)
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I wasn't saying dump constitution, more like, you could get away with a 10 for some characters.
I'll say it, you can dump con with quite a few classes and still have a character that survives to high level when played competently and with a good party. I wouldn't recomend it for a frontline fighter, but I've seen it done with an archery based ranger, a wizard, and I've heard of it being done with a summoner, although I haven't seen it myself in game.
EDIT: granted, I consider 12 high level since I've never had a campaign that got past that level, I can never get a group together for long enough in BFE Florida.