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Hello All. I'm making a level 1 Human Fighter and need help with the finishing touches. I cant decide the ordering of feats (if they are even the right ones), and whether or not if I should stay basic fighter or choose Shielded Fighter or TWF from the APG. I do know that I plan to tank and fight up close when I am in Melee. So any help that could be given would be great. Below is the list of feats I think I should have and the order I have them (Along with a question or two). Thanks!
Level 1: Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Shield Focus
Level 3: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Combat Expertise
Level 5: Power Attack
Level 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting,
Level 7: Shield Slam
Level 8: Greater Shield Focus
Level 9: Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
Level: 10: Weapons Specialization (Heavy Shield)
Level 11: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 12: Shield Master
Level 13: Two Weapon Rend
Others: Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Dodge (Does that stack other defense bonuses, like Combat Expertise) Two Weapon Defense (Same question as Dodge)
Overall what you have above looks like a very good defensive character. As far as the Dodge question goes yes they all stack. Dodge is one of the few items that will stack other then untyped bonuses.
The only other thing I would suggest is to think about Improved Critical and the crit feats. There are some nice ones in there for the fighter.
Vital strike is one of those things that some folks like and others don't. If you find yourself having to be very mobile in your game then they are worth taking... but if your DM tends to run a fair amount of static fights or fights where you can make the bad guys come to you then the feats may not have as much value.
I suggest you to take power attack earlier than level 5.
I would delay Greater Two Weapon Fighting too. Better add feats for control like improved trip (maybe you can use a flail sometimes) or feats improving your hit ratio*, or improved bull rush to improve the Shield Slam.
You could take Deadly Aim too, in the case you cannot go melee.
*It depends from how much your party can buff you - say, a bard makes this less needed.
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You definitely do NOT need 2 Weapon Defense. The shield bonus it provides does NOT stack with any shield you are currently wielding.
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I'm a big fan of the Sword and Board fighter.
I think the TWFing archetype is hands down better than the sheilded fighter archetype. You will likely get more mileage from the TWFer's bonuses if you plan to do a lot of shield bashing; whereas the shielded fighter only gets bonuses to his shield bash attacks, the TWFer gets bonuses to all his attacks on a full attack, as well as an AC boost vs melee. Also, the reductions to attack penalties are very nifty.
Most importantly, at 9th lvl you can make attacks with both sword and shield as a standard action, and at 13th you can do this on attacks of opportunity.
I'd strongly suggest investing in the Bull Rush feats if you intend to do shield bashing. Greater Bull Rush is especially effective, since any movement you cause with a bull rush will provoke AoOs from your allies.
The nice benefit of bull rushing with the shield bash is that you can force an opponent away from you; thus you can get off a full attack and then knock them back with a bull rush, and they have to move to attack you and only get a single attack.
Note that you don't HAVE to make a bull rush after a shield bash, but its a very nice option to have.
I think the synergies in this type of build are clear. At higher levels you can make make attacks with both weapons and get off a shield bash/bull rush, including when you only get a standard action and when you make AoOs. Very effective.
I'd also look at feats such as Combat Reflexes (since you should have a good dex, and at 13th can make attacks with two weapons on an AoO) and Ray and Missile shield (since you will be having a shield out anyways).
Greater TWFing is nice but may be overkill. And you need a 19 dex to do it anyways, which means probably sacrificing Str to get to; probably not worth it. And that third offhand attack is at a -10, so it won't land too often.
Personally I'm not a huge fan of Double Slice, unless you have massive strength. You are generally talking about a +2 to +4 bonus to damage. For an offhand attack I don't know if thats worth a feat or not. I don't like TWRend either, although if you have massive strength it would probably be worth it. But you can only do it once a round anyways. The problem is that those feats are dependent on a very high Str, and for many TWFing builds a fair amount has to go into Dex, thereby reducing Str. Or if the character sticks with just the low Dex only gets one or maybe two offhand attacks a round at most. I just personally prefer feats that will give a better return than that, such as Blindfight or Combat Reflexes. Given a lot of builds, I think that you probably get a higher damage output overall by gaining extra attacks (even if just AoOs) or missing less often than what those two feats give you.
Since you're taking Shield Slam, I highly highly recommend imp. bull rush and greater bull rush. Provoke AoOs for your friends, get some breathing room and its free to do when your shield hits!
I would make the following recommendations:
EWP Madu, threatening defender (trait), combat expertise
I would even spend a feat to get extra traits to take threatening defender if needed to match it with (for the other trait get the devout one that adds to your will save).
As for archtypes:
I like either mobile fighter (leaping attack adds to all attacks so you don't have to worry about keeping your bonuses up as much) or shielded fighter (if you like AC more and don't need to move).
With madu, and threatening defender you won't take a penalty on your attack rolls from using combat expertise until level 8, and even then it's only a -1 for a +3 to AC (more if you take shielded fighter) -- which is a nice trade off in my opinion (especially since it affects touch AC and CMD).
Ditch 2 weapon defense, you don't need it. You picked up Improved Shield Bash at 1st level so you don't lose you shield bonus to AC when fighting two weapon style and shield bashing. Since shield bonuses don't stack 2 weapon Defense isn't give you a thing, it's a wasted feat.
I'm away from my books, but there's a feat (probably in the Advanced Player's Guide, but definitely somewhere in 3.5 lore) that let's you TWF with weapon & shield and does NOT require the big fat Dex investment. It does limit you to weapon & shield though.
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I'm away from my books, but there's a feat (probably in the Advanced Player's Guide, but definitely somewhere in 3.5 lore) that let's you TWF with weapon & shield and does NOT require the big fat Dex investment. It does limit you to weapon & shield though.
Thats fine. The plan is to go Captain America. Shield first whatever else I can grab second. Since I planned to make the shield the priority, Two Weap Warrior looked the way to go.
What is EWP Madu?
If you're planning on going shield first might I reccomend 2 shields.
You'll ONLY get the shield bonus from 1, but all the attack boosting feats you get for the shield will apply to both.
What is EWP Madu?
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I'm not sure how set you are on being a human Aazen, but if you plan on taking all the bull rush feat suggestions into account, I'd suggest being a dwarf with the relentless alternate racial feature. It gives you a +2 to bull rush attempts. If you have a rogue in the party, you might also want to try to work in improved trip and run around with a flail, your rogue will love you. You might also want to look at moving the order of your feats around a bit if you're going to be starting at level 1.
If it were me, I'd probably do something like this (if you're set on playing a human, just move all the feats up one)
Dwarf (with relentless) fighter (twf variant from APG)
1- Weapon focus (heavy shield), Improved shield bash
2- TWF
3- Double Slice
4- Shield Focus
5- Power Attack
6- Improved two weapon fighting
7- Combat expertise
8- Shield slam
9- Improved bull rush
10- Greater shield focus
11- Weapon specialization (heavy shield)
12- Improved trip
13- Weapon Focus (Flail)
With the TWF version of the fighter, shield master isn't needed since the level 15 ability gets rid of the penalties. You can replace it with whatever, I just threw WF (Flail) in there. GWF (heavy shield) or GWS (heavy shield) would also be decent choices for that. If you aren't the only melee party member, you could also drop double slice for combat reflexes and then work stand still in there some where. Or just take those as your feats at 14 and 15, respectively.
Sorry about the wall of text.
The only problem with dwarf is that you get a boost to neither Str nor Dex. And both are important for any TWFing build.
I tried to make a dwarf sword and board fighter before and it was rather difficult for that reason.
You don't want to use any other weapon then a Shield, either...if you choose to take weapon focus/spec, you do it for your primary weapon, which is going to be your shield.
For your off hand weapon, you're going to want either a dagger (throwable?) or a short sword. Your primary weapon is going to be your shield, and you're going to lose all attack penalties with it when you get Shield mastery, and it's going to be a +7 Weapon (you ARE getting a +5 heavy shield, right?)
the off hand weapon you'll probably never use more then once a round, and it should basically be a defensive weapon. I suggest aiming slowly for +5 Defender on it.
You have no defensive feats in there, like Iron Will or improved Init. I would ignore the TWF feat tree beyond what is needed to hold a weapon in your off hand. Likewise, expertise gives you penalties for AC, you already have the AC...get a Defender weapon instead, and just don't attack with it.
==Aelryinth
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Dang. So many routes and feats! And people say Fighters get too many feats. I'm just looking at the guy who hits consistently and keeps whoever he targets engaged with him. I want him to be the immovable object. Captain America when he dives in a group of foes, and not get slaughtered right off the cuff. Choices, choices...
We just lost our two fighters in CotCT, so I'm making a fighter that is going the same route you are. here is my breakdown, havn't had a chance to play it yet though. Hopefully it helps, and if someone has comments, it would help me too :)
Core fighter (I feel that it's just better than either variant from the apg.)
Traits: Anatomist, indomitable faith.
H: Exotic weapon Prof. Falcata (normally wouldn't choose such a cheesy weapon, but after a tpk and two near tpk's, I need some horse shoes in my boxing gloves, DM's brutal!)
1:Imp Shield bash
FB:two wpn fighting
FB:Power Attack
3:Weapon focus: Falcata
FB:Combat Reflexes
5:Improved Bullrush (might take iron will instead, still not sure...)
FB: Shield Slam
7: Improved two wpn fighting.
Wpn Training close (Bonus applies to bull rushing with shield!)
Probably take Greater bullrush next, and shield master at 11th level. one day might take greater 2 wpn fighting. Double slice is nice, bit only looking at a +2-3 damage on the off hand attack, I thought it just wasn't worth it at the moment, maybe later. May get into the critical feats after seeing how many crits I score in play, I and never rolling very high, so I will see. Also, where is the threatening defender trait and what does it do? Name sounds promising...
jlord I suggest either the mobile fighter, or a Rondelero duelist fighter from Taldor.
The Rondelero can use a buckler to shield bash and his training specifically improves both the buckler and the falcata.
jlord I suggest either the mobile fighter, or a Rondelero duelist fighter from Taldor.
The Rondelero can use a buckler to shield bash and his training specifically improves both the buckler and the falcata.
Also if you really thing about it, the Rondelero Duelist is also a disarming Machine.I'm Working on a build for one too. if every feat is taken at the right time you would a bonus to disarm of +8 adding the Equipment trait Heirloom Weapon it could go to a +10. Thats abit ridiculous in my opinion but its a thought.