So... I'm running a Pathfinder game and I have a player who wants to play a man cursed by being transformed into an intelligent gorilla. I love the concept and the idea... it's in the fine tradition of comic books, action cartoons, and pulpy stories everywhere. Smart apes and monkeys make everything cooler.
My problem is trying to figure out how to make it work. There really aren't any playable races that support the concept in PF and the play-as-monsters-rules are very wan.
I looked through a bunch of my D20 books, and found the Weren in D20 future, but they aren't really attuned to the PF standard races. (And they seem a mite bit stronger than something only EL+1 would be.) So far, we've been tinkering with that race and planning on using a modded version of that.
I've also toyed with the notion of the fact that the Druid get to be a class and have an animal at the same time. If there's a way to play a druid who doesn't have an animal companion (extracting the animal and giving domains, for example,) why can't we work the other side... extracting the druid from the animal companion and letting the player just play the companion?
I was hoping someone might have other suggestions or input on the thoughts above. Mostly the guy is looking to play with the Big, Frightfully Strong, yet civil and intelligent aspect of the smart ape thing...
I would just use the rules for reincarnation and let him be reincarnated as a gorilla. This would give him +4 strength, dex and con. 2 slam attacks dealing 1d6 damage, +3 natural armor, low-light vision and scent, climb speed 30 ft. and make him large giving him reach as racial abilities. This might be a bit more powerful than normal races so you could give him some negative levels to offset this (the reincarnation spell gives 2), or have him start at a lower level than the rest of the party.
For a lower powered monkey race you should check out the Chaura-ka which will feature in the inner sea guide and can also be found in the serpent skull adventure path part 2-4.
My best go at it...
Intelligent Ape thing
+4 Str, -2 Cha (8 points)
Medium size
Base speed 20 ft, Climb 30
Lowlight vision (1 point)
From here on out, we go into +1 ECL territory...
2 slams (1d4) (4 points)
+2 Natural Armor (8 points)
21 points total. +1 ECL
Consider it a Major Curse and the PC is effected mechanically by one of the Polymorph school spells? (for game mechanics perhaps.)
Consider it a Major Curse and the PC is effected mechanically by one of the Polymorph school spells? (for game mechanics perhaps.)
This isn't a bad idea, to take it one step further, consider polymorph any object. If you polymorphed a human into an ape, the duration would be permanent. And since it can be used to replicate greater polymorph, apply Beast Shape II to the PC, which would mean the following:
+4 str, -2 dex, +4 natural armor, large sized, base speed 30 ft, Climb speed 30 ft, Lowlight vision, and 2 slams (1d6).
Consider it a Major Curse and the PC is effected mechanically by one of the Polymorph school spells? (for game mechanics perhaps.)This isn't a bad idea, to take it one step further, consider polymorph any object. If you polymorphed a human into an ape, the duration would be permanent. And since it can be used to replicate greater polymorph, apply Beast Shape II to the PC, which would mean the following:
+4 str, -2 dex, +4 natural armor, large sized, base speed 30 ft, Climb speed 30 ft, Lowlight vision, and 2 slams (1d6).
Yeah, Poly any Ob was what first sprung to my mind as well. Thanks for the rule summary!
Reincarnate is worth looking at, though I'm usually not a fan of the whole, 'You get the physical bonuses & penalties, but a free pass on the Bugbear's -2 charisma," kind of thing. In this instance, though. that could work for me, seeing as I actually want him to retain his brain.
I did check out the Chauru-ka, but the racial hit-dice and the +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis for a cost of -2 Int makes them pretty tough, beyond the shrieking and throwing awesomely thing. They're actually on par with an Ape, CR-wise. Mostly, I discarded them because my player wants to be a big guy, not small.
Kierato, your point-ratio thingy intrigues me. I just wish I knew how you arrived there. With what kind of scale are you calculating the points? Who determines +2 natural armor is 8 points and out of how many? Is it from Savage Species?
Reincarnate is worth looking at, though I'm usually not a fan of the whole, 'You get the physical bonuses & penalties, but a free pass on the Bugbear's -2 charisma," kind of thing. In this instance, though. that could work for me, seeing as I actually want him to retain his brain.
I did check out the Chauru-ka, but the racial hit-dice and the +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis for a cost of -2 Int makes them pretty tough, beyond the shrieking and throwing awesomely thing. They're actually on par with an Ape, CR-wise. Mostly, I discarded them because my player wants to be a big guy, not small.
Kierato, your point-ratio thingy intrigues me. I just wish I knew how you arrived there. With what kind of scale are you calculating the points? Who determines +2 natural armor is 8 points and out of how many? Is it from Savage Species?
.
..
...
....
.....
I'd let him be a gorilla - with all the downsides as well (it being a curse and all):
|
If you have access to Pathfinder #42, take a look at Rise of the Gorilla God section. It describes the Totem of Angazhan. One of it's many powers is to reincarnate a person into a intelligent CE dire ape (+8 str, +4 Dex, and +6 Con). And it wouldn't be hard to drop something similar and not as evil into any game.
I think that this might be exactly what you're looking for. :)
You know, I'm going to file this under "Very strong possibility," thanks! ^-^
Er... Benign Facist... well... I think you might have missed the fact that I -want- him to play what he wants to play, a talking ape that used to be human. There will be drawbacks, to be certain, but this thread isn't me upset at my player's audacity or anything. I'm just trying to balance this with the rest of the players.
====
I should probably mention the rest of the characters are level 10-ish... so fortunately, there's a bit of wiggle room for balance.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
I think that this might be exactly what you're looking for. :)You know, I'm going to file this under "Very strong possibility," thanks! ^-^
:D
No Problemo. I'm a problem solver (everyone else's thst is).
I think that this might be exactly what you're looking for. :)Er... Benign Facist... well... I think you might have missed the fact that I -want- him to play what he wants to play, a talking ape that used to be human. There will be drawbacks, to be certain, but this thread isn't me upset at my player's audacity or anything.
.
.....
....
.....
Aye aye - I didn't believe/hoped they wouldn't be upset with the 'limitations'. I'd hope a player would see them as interesting quirks/challenges that would make playing a talking (via sign language!) gorilla the 'complete experience'! :)
Personally, I'd feel cheaped with anything less - might as well play a hairy half-orc who's prone to knuckle dragging, ya know?
Note: This is all assuming you give them all the pro's of being a gorilla -- the slam attacks, stat mods, nat AC etc - and treating them like a base class, i.e no level modifiers etc
I'd love it!
Wow, I'm having flashbacks to my old Gamma World games.
I would let him have the natural slam attack , but remember that gorillas do not have opposable thumbs like humans. They will take a penalty when using weapons. Off couse for a special attack that could sicken an enemy, they can fling poo.
A Barbarian gorilla would be a cool character to run.
I am loath to have extra races detailed mechanically in my games. However, for this kind of concept, I'd do something simple like the following:
Take a human. Give him low-light vision, a STR or CON bonus, and slam attacks for 1d6, but give a DEX penalty and a further penalty on DEX-based skills.
A bit underwhelming, maybe, but the flavor should carry it.
Alternatively, you can Awaken an ape from the Beastiary, and have him THINK he used to be human. Still has the same flavor for the character, but is pretty easy, as far as mechanics are concerned, and not powerful enough to unbalance things.
You are the DM. Who needs rules? Smack thy gavel down on the table and make it so!
My advice? Do not reinvent the wheel. The guy has a cool concept- come up with something /simple/ to make it work.
Like.. erasing "half orc" from "half orc" and renaming it "gorilla man". Bingo.
Add in the APG feat to give him a bite- and you are golden. The work is already done, the balance is already done. All you have to do is pencil in some fur and a different posture and he's ready to go.
Don't let "i want to be something new" turn into "how the heck do I balance that!". Take an already approved, balanced race and rename/fluff it and let the character go.
-S
.
..
...
....
.....I'd let him be a gorilla - with all the downsides as well (it being a curse and all):
He can't speak common/languages as he lacks the vocal cord/mouth structure - but he can use sign language... If he weilds a weapon he can't make a move action other than 5' step in a round he attacks (lacks spinal structure/leg structure for sustained bipedal movement) He needs to eat a hell of a lot of food.... He lacks the manually dexterity in his hands for fine motor control - sure he can pick up a stick and poke stuff but picking a lock/buttoning a shirt? Maybe they've taught a gorilla do it but I doubt they can do it quickly..
It's not my game so my opinion counts for naught, but if any of my players ever wanted to play the OP's concept, this is exactly the way I'd run it.
Even if it was my own character in someone else's game, this is still the way I'd want to play it.
My advice? Do not reinvent the wheel. The guy has a cool concept- come up with something /simple/ to make it work.
Like.. erasing "half orc" from "half orc" and renaming it "gorilla man". Bingo.
Don't let "i want to be something new" turn into "how the heck do I balance that!". Take an already approved, balanced race and rename/fluff it and let the character go.
Much better (I think) than my idea of how to apply the reskinning concept.
My idea was to play an Eidolon. You even get this strange NPC who keeps following you around and doing nice things for you. Building an Eidolon to look like a gorilla should be fairly simple.
Aye aye - I didn't believe/hoped they wouldn't be upset with the 'limitations'. I'd hope a player would see them as interesting quirks/challenges that would make playing a talking (via sign language!) gorilla the 'complete experience'! :)Personally, I'd feel cheaped with anything less - might as well play a hairy half-orc who's prone to knuckle dragging, ya know?
Note: This is all assuming you give them all the pro's of being a gorilla -- the slam attacks, stat mods, nat AC etc - and treating them like a base class, i.e no level modifiers etc
I'd love it!
You know, when you put it that way, I can dig your groove. Totally understand. It's cool, mate!
That said, the friend and I are both cartoonists of a sort or another, and I know I imagine in animation. It comes very natural for me to imagine talking animals with peculiarly trans-morphic paws and facial expressions, particularly in a universe like D&D or Pathfinder where reality is already awfully plastic.
Where I'm more influenced by Don Bluth, the guy who'll be playing the ape character is influenced a lot by comics and I think he's picturing stuff like Gorilla-Man, Gorilla Grod, Monsieur Mallah, Ultra-Humanite, or Sam Simeon; or other people-apes; (particularly Gorilla-Man & the Ultra-Humanite, since he used to be human.)
Hope that helps you understand our groove. ^-^
.
..
...
....
.....
Hope that helps you understand our groove. ^-^
Aaah I getcha - I was once a computer animator, in one of my previous incarnations!
May I prescribe - It has a Gorilla in it!
::
Hmm, how abouts playing the curse over X levels? So you can explore the slow decline/loss of (an aspect) of their humanity while exploring they learn to utilise the advantages of their new form?
You could even run it over a long arc -- have them hit the sweet spot of 'anthropomorphic ape' from 3rd to [insert typical higher level suited to campaign] and then, when they're considering retirement, have them finally descend/become a TOTAL APE = thinking rampaging Dire Gorilla/Ape roaming the dark jungles..
::
Maybe refer to for some ideas - possibly swap out dark vision and Ogre blood for low light and +1 Nat Ac (Hairy!).
::
If you get the time, let us know what you decided on!
:)
I think you're all getting too complicated.
If his goal is to play a man cursed to be an ape, tell him to roll up a man, and then hit him with a Baleful Polymorph spell. Take the rest in play. Maybe he gets cured if someone can remove the Baleful Polymorph later in his character development.
I think you're all getting too complicated.
If his goal is to play a man cursed to be an ape, tell him to roll up a man, and then hit him with a Baleful Polymorph spell. Take the rest in play. Maybe he gets cured if someone can remove the Baleful Polymorph later in his character development.
It would have to be polymorph any object, baleful polymorph would turn him into a capuchin.
Here's what I've done so far. It's a two part deal, so to speak.
First thing's first. The adventure path I'm running them through is Serpent's Skull, partly because when I heard of the gorilla PC idea, that path leapt out at me, partly because it's still fresh in my mind (yet I have the whole thing,) partly because my players and I have a tendency to enjoy journeying to places other than Fantasy-Europe-land in our games.
Also, Garund is the closest analogy to the region I would have been using if my long running Shackled City game had resumed. Alas, things fell through for that.
Things kind of almost fell through for this game too, come to think. For a while, I thought we might be running with only three players. That being the case, I figured it wouldn't be too bad if, at least early on, the meat shield (the Gorilla,) was a bit more powerful than the norm.
This is the package I allowed him:
+4 Str,
-2 Dex
+2 Con
Low-light vision & scent.
A climb speed of 30 ft
+2 racial bonus to intimidate checks
A slam that does 1d6+1 & 1/2 str
Counts as an Animal for purposes of any spell except Awaken.
Can't wear normal armor, has to buy his armor as barding for an animal.
I figured that having him in the front line would make the 3-man group a bit more survivable, and since he a) lacks ranged attacks & b) has an anti-feat that forces him to make intimidate checks immediately whenever he first meets a humanoid, it will keep the more socially oriented player character relevant since he'll need to smooth things over with the other ship-wrecked crew-members and keep them from freaking out.
Then I received word that I will be having a fourth player.
In light of that, I may be busting the Str bonus down to a +2, dropping the slam, & saying he needs to take a feat for scent. Kind of like that Simian race Flash_cxxi linked me to, but with a -2 to dex instead of cha. That was a pretty handy supplement. The reason I want to go with a -2 to dex is that the player really wants to mess around with the idea that he's more cumbersome and clumsy-handed as an ape. He actually took ranks in craft-whittling to represent his character taking up wood-carving as an attempt to retrain his manual dexterity back. He also likes the idea of playing up the primal splendor of gorillas, and a -2 to cha was really counter to that.
I myself, also admit disappointment at seeing apes with an average charisma of 7 in the Bestiary. It doesn't synch up with the Star Power exhibited by apes in comics, RPGs, & adventure/fantasy stories. Pathfinder is nothing if not a part of that broad genre to me. I also think that apes have the closest thing to human-like social organization in nature, which suggests a higher charisma to me. Then again, I could make another thread about how animals are weird in D20 systems.
You could make several threads as to how animals are weird in d20.