Improved Natural Attack rules seem a bit wonky. It looks like I can take it once per attack type (once for claws, once for bite, etc) or does it mean I can only choose one attack type (claws or bite) and be able to take it multiple times only for that type?
I believe if you can take a feat multiple times, the feat will say so. (see Improved Natural Armor, for example) So, pick one natural attack form (Claws) and they go up one die size.
It's a monster feat, so ask your DM. Personally I would allow it, since d6 at 7th level isn't amazing.
I have not been able to find any rules about growing a tail or horns.
Other than casting Form of the Dragon, I don't know how you could do this. Half-Orcs can get a Bite attack, if that helps any.
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Well I was thinking I could toss in Beast Shape in the lower levels to add some added uses of claws, albeit different ones.
I'm assuming if I have a feat for claws, it would work for all claws, be it from my hands, a beast, or a dragon?
You'll gain access to Beast Shape by level 6. Levels 1-5 seem pretty low-level to me, too. Also, your damage would be rather low.
Anyone can gain a bite attack by taking the adopted trait to gain access to half-orc race traits.
I just really like the concept of having tons of natural attacks and playing off that.
The Sorcerer/DD is not the way to go here.
I would take a couple levels of Barbarian to get rage, some rounds of rage and good BAB progression. I had a build a bit ago that could nova for 6 rounds a day and have I think 40 something strength. I was also level 14.
AC looks fine. Shield + Mage Armor is good. Later on, take Arcane Armor Training maybe if you want to wear enhanced armor. Otherwise your AC you get at 1 (dex+shield+mage armor) will be your AC until around level 12 (dex+shield+mage armor+ring of protection)
One thing we do at our table is to make claws a permanent fixture of the character once they receive the dragon disciple's dragon bite ability. The claws all the time thing is really not that game breaking and we thought it was a pointless sub-rule.
One thing we do at our table is to make claws a permanent fixture of the character once they receive the dragon disciple's dragon bite ability. The claws all the time thing is really not that game breaking and we thought it was a pointless sub-rule.
I thought it was silly that they made the claws and bite times per day as opposed to permanent like they were in 3.5.
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Level 11 (good)
Claws and bite now deal an additional 1d6 elemental damage from bloodline. I will also now have access to the spell permanency to have an ally cast Magic Fang (MF) on my claws/bite for an additional 1 damage.Claw damage would be 1d6 base, 1d6 ele, 3 AS, 2 PA, 1 MF. Bite would 1d4 base, 1d6 ele, 3 AS, 2 PA, 1 MF.
Total would be 2d6+6 per claw, 1d4+1d6+6 for bite.Level 13 (good)
Rending Claws would add 1d6 when using both claws. MF could improve to +3.Level 15 (potentially awesome)
AS improves to +4. Also gain wings from bloodline, which ideally would be considered 1d4 secondary attack each.So at 15 I was hoping to deal
Claw for (1d6 + 1d6 ele + 4 AS + 2 PA + 3 MF) each plus + 1d6 rending
Bite for 1d4 + 1d6 ele + 4 AS + 2 PA + 3 MF
Wing for (1d4 + 4 AS + 2 PA + 3 MF) eachTotal damage would be
3d6 + 3d6 ele + 3d4 + 20 AS + 10 PA + 15 MF damageI'm still confused as to whether or not I would be able to use my wings as natual attacks once I gain them at level 15 and whether or not I could cast Magic Fang on them.
If I plan to routinely take on a dragon form, could I cast Magic Fang on the appendages in that form and use permanency on them? Are they considered the same for magic fang's bonuses?
That's neither good nor awesome. That's pretty bad actually. You'll also have a rather low attack bonus, so you can't be sure that all attacks hit. Rending claws is a miserable feat that.
Elemental resistance 5 would be enough to block most of your elemental damage and you'll have a hard time piercing material damage reduction.Take a look at the level 10 dpr threat, than compare that to what your character would be able to achieve by level 15.
If you want to run a combat Dragon Disciple, you don't go Sorcerer, you take like 3 Barbarian/2 Sorcerer/max Dragon Disciple. Or 4 Paladin/1 Sorcerer/max Dragon Disciple
I'm still confused as to whether or not I would be able to use my wings as natual attacks once I gain them at level 15 and whether or not I could cast Magic Fang on them.
No. Having wings does not give you wing buffet. And I think you have to be of notable size to have wing buffet anyway.
Sorry, what's 10 dpr threat?
If I went into barb and/or paladin what would I be picking up?
You'd be picking up the ability to actually be a melee combatant.
I've made a DD melee character before.
With Dm permission I made an item (neckpiece) that essentially made my claws/bite at will. There's not a good mechanic, but considering the damage is less than a manufactured weapon it's a flavor item and not a game changer. The 3+cha rounds per day Blows hardcore. It's a backup power at best.
That's your best bet if you want to be a melee DD. That or multiclass in fighter and pick up a sword.
Magic item? Ridiculous. If you are already going to house rule it, just say you grow two claws and a bite attack. That's how it worked in 3.5 and the Dragon Disciple was gimped in 3.5.
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Sorry, what's 10 dpr threat?
If I went into barb and/or paladin what would I be picking up?
This thread:
The DPR Olympics - or "I'm not the mechanic here, Ironsides! I mostly just hurt people!"While the characters are excessively minmaxed, they are still a good approximation of what a high level combat character should be able to do.
Magic item? Ridiculous. If you are already going to house rule it, just say you grow two claws and a bite attack. That's how it worked in 3.5 and the Dragon Disciple was gimped in 3.5.
A magic item can be removed if necessary for plot reasons. Also it's a very minor magic item, which is easier/more effective than revamping the rules. The item is a varant on any number of level 1 spells that allow you to grow natural attacks. An item changes one character, not every DD in the campaign world.
You are right that the 3.5 DD was severly gimped.
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I sense a dismissive tone here from a few people. Phage opened up this discussion stating that this is his FIRST roleplaying campaign. Can we not cut him some slack?
I think the main points are already touched upon.A sorcerer gives you bad attack bonus and hit die, which are both necessary for your character to become an efficient melee combatant. I recommend shifting natural attacks to a mid to long-term priority (like when you qualify for DD or get wildshape as a druid) and develop melee prowess as your immediate goal.
I actually quite like Cartigan's recommendation of Pal 4/Sorc 1. You gain the following at low lvl:
- decent attack bonus
- decent melee abilities (smite evil)
- decent staying power (d12 hit die, lay on hands)
- great saves + defense (divine grace, aura of courage, and divine health, mercy)
- a little versatility (spells)
I can't say what will happen once you start putting on lvls of DD. A lot of it really depends on the group and type of campaign you're playing in. But good luck and have fun!
3d6 + 3d6 ele + 3d4 + 20 AS + 10 PA + 15 MF damage
Ah wot? Oh.
Power Attack doesn't count like 4(-1/+2).... 8(-2/+4).
It counts like 0(-1/+2)... 4(-2/+4)... 8(-3/+6)... 12(-4/+8).
The barbarian2/sorc5/DD8 I had, at 15, nova'd for I think 12 rounds per day...
BAB 10
STR 36 (started at 16+2human+4dd+2level+4rage+4belt+4dragonform)
CON 20 (started at 14+2 while raging due to apg feat)
DEX 14 (started at 13)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16 (started at 14)
Belt of giant strength +4
Haste
Rage, included in stats
Heroism, greater
Dragon form (Form of the Dragon I), included in stats
Arcane strike
Power Attack (-3/+6) or (-3/+9)
+3 Amulet of Mighty Fists and Natural Armor (houserule to combine items)
Claw +28 1d6 + 1d6 + 13 + 2 + 6 + 3
Claw +28 1d6 + 1d6 + 13 + 2 + 6 + 3
Claw +28 1d6 + 1d6 + 13 + 2 + 6 + 3
Bite +28 1d8 + 1d6 + 19 + 2 + 9 + 3
Gore +28 1d6 + 1d6 + 13 + 2 + 6 + 3
Wing +23 1d4 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 3
Wing +23 1d4 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 3
So that's 9d6+1d8+2d4+83+12+39+21 for something like
If you had a 18 strength, -2 from gnome, +4 DD, +2 level, modified with a 4 belt and form of the dragon I, you'd be at 30. So, add 10 to both claws, 5 to both wings and 15 to your bite. Oh, and this requires 17 point from point buy since you're a gnome for some reason. But your dice are fine since you become a medium dragon with Form of the Dragon. You hasted yourself.
AS, MF, PA, STR
So you deal 2/3rds damage, need a higher point buy or need to be luckier on rolls, and your attack bonus is lower...
BAB STR MF HERO PA
+7 +10 +3 +4 -2
+22
... by six points. So, you can see the straight up math here and decide for yourself.
Oh. And don't go with the last two levels of dragon disciple. They're no good.
EDIT: Well, here's a really good explanation of how to a) get wing attacks (use the dragon form ability of the dragon disciple or cast any of the form the dragon spells) and b) to be an absolutely murderous dragon disciple.
To be honest, if this is your first roleplaying campaign and the other party members are also first-timers, you should be fine doing 150 damage a round instead of 200. It's really not that big of a deal to people who are learning the game. I'm just posting this because I had to check it out and worked for like an hour on it out of boredom and I'm not deleting this post because I am belligerent.
If your character concept is specifically to do the melee claw thing, consider druid instead of sorcerer.
If your concept is to augment your sorcerer firebally goodness with some claw melee, I think you're on the right track.