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I've been hearing that in terms of optimization, you can make a better monk without using monk levels than with.\
So I ask? How does this kindof build work. I'm assuming lots of fighter for feats, the TWF Tree, Imp. Unarmed Strike. How do you shore up the low AC you'd have from light or no armor?
I'm helping my GF build her character, and the fact that she wont have to track ki points will make this easier for her (playing a spellcaster was painful, she could never keep track of her spells per day and she was always having to look her spells up) so if it can be done with fighter, all the better.
She'll be playing a Demon-Spawned Tiefling (+2str, +2cha, -2 int)(Council of Thieves), (She picked what tye of tiefling by looking at the appearance of the types of outsiders, and she liked the blue demon with the big claws and all the horns in the Bestiary 2). She's got the trait that gives her claws instead of darkness.
She'll be allowed to take any feats she qualifies for, and I suppose where she has claws she wont need imp. unarmed strike.
Light or no armor build. Looking for something that gets good damage, has some decent AC, and maybe some disarm.
Advice on a build?
Fighter or barbarian. The barbarian has a line where he gains a number of other natural attacks. Fighters gets the feats though.
Barbarian would be my suggestion, but then she would have to track rage.
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Yeah. I figured fighter for the feats.
I was looking for some more detail. Someone mentioned a fighter unarmed build that gets like a 40 DPR advantage over a monk by like level 10.
And I was wondering where the AC comes from if youre not using the armor, since you dont get the monk's scaling AC.
I'm not so much looking for a class suggestion, I'm looking for more detailed advice for a build. I know it'll involve a bunch of fighter levels, and possibly some rogue or ranger or something.
I was hoping for either detailed advice on what to take, or to be pointed at one of the relevant optimization threads my search-fu can't seem to locate today.
If barbarian, why? the Rage will be a drawback since I want it to be something she can do easily (if she has rage she probably wont remember to do it most of the time, or remember her rage powers - less tracking is good).
If I use ranger levels it'll be skirmisher, so she doesnt get spells, for example.
I'm looking for something simple to track and effective, without using weapons, or much in the way of armor, studded leather, tops.
If you mean for monk a dude punching enemies to death, you are probably right. Point being, that's just a part of the monk.
Anyway: go fighter. One can build fighters difficult to track, but in this case just stack on feats adding bonuses to hit and damage and call it a day (and maybe add the bonus-boosting ones).
When she's higher level, maybe can choose to spice it up the thing - maneuver feats, stunning fist, touch of serenity and similar stuff.
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If you mean for monk a dude punching enemies to death, you are probably right. Point being, that's just a part of the monk.
Yeah. Hmm.
Maybe something using Duelist?
I dunno. Armor isn't a great option in this campaign anyways. The game is mostly on ships. Swim and Acrobatics penalties are a bit of a problem.
Hmm.
- Unarmed.
- Light Armor only.
- Decent Damage.
- Won't be using the Ascetic Feel, and less tracking would be good.
If you mean for monk a dude punching enemies to death, you are probably right. Point being, that's just a part of the monk.Yeah. Hmm.
Maybe something using Duelist?
I dunno. Armor isn't a great option in this campaign anyways. The game is mostly on ships. Swim and Acrobatics penalties are a bit of a problem.
Hmm.
- Unarmed.
- Light Armor only.
- Decent Damage.
- Won't be using the Ascetic Feel, and less tracking would be good.
Duelist is a good call. A nice defensive build so you won't have to worry too much about randomly getting thrashed.
Go straight rogue (swashbuckler archtype) until 15 level. Take fighter for the last 5 levels.
15 point buy:
Str:12=10(base)+2(racial)
Dex:16=16(base)
Con:13=13(base)
Int:10=12(base)-2(racial)
Wis:10=10(base)
Cha:12=10(base)+2(racial)
20 point buy:
Str:12=10(base)+2(racial)
Dex:17=17(base)
Con:14=14(base)
Int:10=12(base)-2(racial)
Wis:10=10(base)
Cha:12=10(base)+2(racial)
25 point buy:
Str:12=10+2(racial)
Dex:18=18
Con:14=14
Int:10=12(base)-2(racial)
Wis:10=10(base)
Cha:12=10(base)+2(racial)
level=special
1=Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike; +1d6 sneak attack;
2=Evasion; Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Weapon Finesse)
3=Feat: Two Weapon Fighting; Daring +1(Acrobatics and fear saves), Snak Attack +2d6
4=Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Improved Grapple); Uncanny Dodge
5=Feat: Agile Maneuvers; +3d6 sneak attack;
6=Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Unarmed Strike); Daring +2
7=Feat: Combat Expertise; +4d6 Sneak Attack
8=Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak; Improved Uncanny Dodge;
9=Feat: Improved Trip; Sneak Attack +5d6; Daring +3
10=Adanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak
11=Feat: Improved Two weapon Fighting; +6d6 Sneak attack
12=Advanced Rogue Talent: Feat (Greater Trip); Daring +4
13=Feat: Combat Reflexes; +7d6 sneak Attack
14=Advanced Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion
15=Feat: Two Weapon Rend; 8d6 Sneak Attack; Daring +5
16=Bonus Feat: Improved Grapple
17=Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting; Bonus Feat:Two Weapon Defense; Bravery+1
18=Armor Training 1
19=Feat: Greater Grapple; Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (unarmed Strike)
20=Weapon Training 1 (close or natural)
EDITED:For clarity.
She'll be playing a Demon-Spawned Tiefling...
Light or no armor build. Looking for something that gets good damage, has some decent AC, and maybe some disarm.
Advice on a build?
If you are only looking for damage and AC bonuses, then I'd recommend either a STR/DEX Ranger or Fighter. They both have the BAB, while the fighter has more feats, the ranger has two weapon fighting (geared for her claws). Then take feats like Dodge, Mobility, perhaps even Combat Expertise if she has the INT requirement.
I'd double check the class variants in the APG just in case there was a specific variant that fit the bill.
-Kurocyn
Does anyone know of any third party or homebrew NON-ki using monks? Seems like a good archtype for a Pathfinder monk trade in skills or feats for ki abilities. *shrugs*
Greg
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Does anyone know of any third party or homebrew NON-ki using monks? Seems like a good archtype for a Pathfinder monk trade in skills or feats for ki abilities. *shrugs*
Greg
Heh. I just asked for that here
I'll post one if I find one.
I'll also post if I find a fighter archetype with monk type ac bonus.
The Guy in the Hat is a Shaolin Monk with Armor.
Monks should at least get light armor proficiency (Swordsages did), but y'know. People really expect them to fight people with no protection.
EDIT: Though I guess he could also be a Fighter with weapon specialization (Unarmed Strike), skill points in Acrobatics, and possibly weapon training. Or a ranger, or barbarian; though officially he was raised in a monastery of monks, but was kicked out.
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The Guy in the Hat is a Shaolin Monk with Armor.
Monks should at least get light armor proficiency (Swordsages did), but y'know. People really expect them to fight people with no protection.
EDIT: Though I guess he could also be a Fighter with weapon specialization (Unarmed Strike), skill points in Acrobatics, and possibly weapon training. Or a ranger, or barbarian; though officially he was raised in a monastery of monks, but was kicked out.
Level 1 monk, changed alignment, progressed as fighter. lol
Since she has claws, she doesn't need to worry about improved unarmed attack, and I believe (although I'm not positive) that she gets both claws as primary weapons. That means she gets to use both claws when she full attacks at full BAB, plus she gets to use her full strength bonus on both attacks. (See sorcerer Draconic Bloodline.) With a +2 str, I would go for a strength build over a dex build.
For class, I'd go either fighter (Savage Warrior archetype), Rogue (Scout archetype) or a multiclass of those two.
Are you doing point build, or rolling?
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So strangely I don't see the monk as being defined by his unarmed fighting which is rather mediocre. I see the monk as being defined by all the things that monks can do that no-one else can do nearly as well.
Mobility, Great saves, Immunities, Slow Fall, etc
All these things that the fighter isn't going to be very good at.
You aren't making a 'better monk than a monk' you are making a 'better bare fisted fighter than a monk' because you are really leaving all the stuff that makes a monk interesting and fun behind.
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Numerically speaking, fighters make better unarmed combatants, but you aren't playing monk for freaking numbers, you are playing it for the shenanigans a monk has. Now if you wanted to duplicate the shenanigans some you could throw in some paladin (if you have a high charisma) or rogue/wizard, to get some of the weirder tricks, basically re-skinning spells as martial arts moves, of course with the Fighter as the base line, because you still have to be able to hit/be hit as a martial artist.
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She wants the unarmed part of the monk, not the kung-fu action movie physics defying powers.
She mostly wants the ability to fight well without weapons, and using light or no armor.
The ability score generation method is using cards.
4,4,5,5,6,7,7,8,8,9,9,J
Shuffle, draw pairs, Joker doubles whatever number it's next to.
How about a shapeshifter ranger? Especially if spells confuse her this could be a good choice since she can get used to spells by managing the low amount of ranger spells (if she wants to get used to more complex stuff)
(and aspects are not that hard to manage, especially if she´s not optimizing but playing for style which I´d derive from the fact that she´d chosen her race by appereance)
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How about a shapeshifter ranger? Especially if spells confuse her this could be a good choice since she can get used to spells by managing the low amount of ranger spells (if she wants to get used to more complex stuff)
(and aspects are not that hard to manage, especially if she´s not optimizing but playing for style which I´d derive from the fact that she´d chosen her race by appereance)
She's playing for style but asking me to tell her what to change to be more effective because her last two characters were a sorcerer and a druid and she was not built very well and she had a hard time playing it on top of that, so I'm trying to give her something more simple.
And if it's fighter, she can use all of her abilities all of the time - she just needs to choose feats as she levels.
Considering a few homebrew archetypes as well: Posted them here.
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She wants the unarmed part of the monk, not the kung-fu action movie physics defying powers.
She mostly wants the ability to fight well without weapons, and using light or no armor.
This is fair enough. I kind of figured but my suspicion is your pugilist is going to be fairly weak regardless of what class you tie him to.
If it's for a home game I'd probably just let her use fighter and give her Improved Unarmed Strike with monks scaling damage in exchange for martial weapon proficiency and see how that works out.
One option regarding armor is if you have Unearthed Arcana, there is an option there that gives characters a (dodge?) bonus to AC if they aren't wearing armor that is based on class and level.
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She doesn't want a monk, she wants a boxer.
Yeah, pretty much. Well; Kickboxer anyways.
One option regarding armor is if you have Unearthed Arcana, there is an option there that gives characters a (dodge?) bonus to AC if they aren't wearing armor that is based on class and level.
I totally forgot about that book. That's kindof a game-wide hack though, and we're looking for something that can be applied to just her character.
This is fair enough. I kind of figured but my suspicion is your pugilist is going to be fairly weak regardless of what class you tie him to.
If it's for a home game I'd probably just let her use fighter and give her Improved Unarmed Strike with monks scaling damage in exchange for martial weapon proficiency and see how that works out.
Yeah. That's likely going to be the way we build her. I put up three potential fighter archetypes here that could be combined, and used to make the Pugilist fighter.
She likes the idea of a little armor but doesn't want anything really heavier than studded leather if she goes for it.
I like a bunch of the fighter options mentioned here and I'll be sure to have her read this thread. I'd like any advice for adjusting those custom archetypes though.
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She doesn't want a monk, she wants a boxer.Yeah, pretty much. Well; Kickboxer anyways.
I was gonna say MMA specialist but didn't wanna get caught up with any of the combat maneuvers (grapple trip etc).
I personally liked the idea someone gave about giving the IUA feat and monk damage in a trade for the universal martial weapon feature. Allowing her to have all the base damage types (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) in her attacks.
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She doesn't want a monk, she wants a boxer.Yeah, pretty much. Well; Kickboxer anyways.
I was gonna say MMA specialist but didn't wanna get caught up with any of the combat maneuvers (grapple trip etc).
I personally liked the idea someone gave about giving the IUA feat and monk damage in a trade for the universal martial weapon feature. Allowing her to have all the base damage types (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) in her attacks.
Yeah I like that one too. Well in exchange for universal martial weapons and weapon training was the suggestion I mentioned; (found it combing the houserules forum somewhere) - giving her the damage types, and scaling unarmed damage of a monk.
Some other pugilist options would be nice. I'll be mentioning them in the UC wishlist threads.
Boxing (fighting style) and Duelist (PrC) are almost mutually exclusive.
Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
If a pugilist wanted to go with this, I would not have a problem: d3(20/x2) v. d6(18/x2) is a 'weaker' choice. Heck, I *like* the idea of some kind of AC progression in line with a BAB progression :D (but that is a different topic)
Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
Fists do not pierce. Just as a Longsword does not. There goes the damage bump for being a Duelist.
Combat Reflexes: At 4th level, a duelist gains the benefit of the Combat Reflexes feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon.
Notice a theme here?
Though you could house rule a Duelist/Pugilist, it doesn't seem to be inherently possible with the class as is.
Having said all that, if your player is running a Tiefling, Barbarian could work well. Rage seems *ahem* destructive enough to go with a Demon's blood :) If your player has a hard time tracking Rage Points (rounds) give her a stack of Magic:TG style tracking beads to hand in to you as she spends rage :) Poker Chips work, too ;) (In fact, I am getting ready to do that with my group--we have two Barbs in party right now) If she has a hard time tracking Rage Powers, someone suggested an Index Card. Awesome idea! On one side wirte out her Powers, and the other her attacks, with and without Rage added into it.
GNOME
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Boxing (fighting style) and Duelist (PrC) are almost mutually exclusive.
Hmm. I see what you mean. I was just going from memory. Though most of these things apply if you have claws as a natural weapon - which she does (Council of Thieves AP Option). You're right though. It would be nice if these things combined more nicely.
Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.If a pugilist wanted to go with this, I would not have a problem: d3(20/x2) v. d6(18/x2) is a 'weaker' choice. Heck, I *like* the idea of some kind of AC progression in line with a BAB progression :D (but that is a different topic)
I know I as GM would rule that if you have Imp. Unarmed strike, unarmed counts as "Wielding" - likewise for natural weapons such as claws d4(20/x2). Obviously YMMV. I also read the fact that monk unarmed strike counts as manufactured weapons and interpret it to mean you can have +1 Ghost Touch Monk attack.
Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.Fists do not pierce. Just as a Longsword does not. There goes the damage bump for being a Duelist.
Claws as natural weapon. Count as light one handed piercing weapon.
Combat Reflexes: At 4th level, a duelist gains the benefit of the Combat Reflexes feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon.Notice a theme here?
Claws.
Though you could house rule a Duelist/Pugilist, it doesn't seem to be inherently possible with the class as is.
Would be nice if it worked in general instead of just with piercing weapons. I could see any light one handed melee weapon instead of specifying piercing.
Having said all that, if your player is running a Tiefling, Barbarian could work well. Rage seems *ahem* destructive enough to go with a Demon's blood :) If your player has a hard time tracking Rage Points (rounds) give her a stack of Magic:TG style tracking beads to hand in to you as she spends rage :) Poker Chips work, too ;) (In fact, I am getting ready to do that with my group--we have two Barbs in party right now) If she has a hard time tracking Rage Powers, someone suggested an Index Card. Awesome idea! On one side wirte out her Powers, and the other her attacks, with and without Rage added into it.
GNOME
I definitely like these index card/counter ideas, and I think I'll be helping her do a setup like this for all her characters from now on. It might just save the group a ton of time.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The ability score generation method is using cards.
4,4,5,5,6,7,7,8,8,9,9,J
Shuffle, draw pairs, Joker doubles whatever number it's next to.
Okay, that is just awesome! I would have to add another 6 so there is 13 cards. Because of course, something always needs to be feeling left out.
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Okay, that is just awesome! I would have to add another 6 so there is 13 cards. Because of course, something always needs to be feeling left out.The ability score generation method is using cards.
4,4,5,5,6,7,7,8,8,9,9,J
Shuffle, draw pairs, Joker doubles whatever number it's next to.
It raises average attributes to around a 13, guarantees no more than 1 18, and no more than one 8.
The idea is that it's random while still giving number that are close in terms of power. They don't result in exactly the same number of points ala point buy, but if you add all your stats up you get a total between 76 and 81, so while random, the total difference between two characters stats is always 5 attribute points or less.
Adding the 6 back in would make it more swingy though (part of what this goes to avoid). The six is so it's a middle number being traded for the joker. (Last year's campaign was 4,5,5,6,6,7,7,8,8,9,9) and it resulted in numbers a bit high 78-83. Your suggestion makes the method yield totals between 73 and 83. Still workable, just a bit more swingy.
I've been contemplating a tweak where on average it works out the the elite array.
I have 2 basic options for that:
4,4,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,7,9,9 (You can get an 18, 12s are more likely)
or
4,4,5,5,5,6,6,7,7,7,8,8 (You can get a 16, 13-14 are more likely)
If you're wondering, the elite array is 6 points crappier than the standard array you get from 2 of each number from 4-9.
If you add in a joker as the 13th card, it's between 16 points crappier, to 4 points better.
If you are going for the MMA fighter aesthetic I think the Brutal Pugilist archetype of the Barbarian is a really solid build.
Cestus or Spiked Gauntlet + Good Strength + Something like a Natural Bite Attack provides a decent attack line.
You'll want TWF to increase DPR and the higher Dex should help compensate for wearing light armor. Grapple chain is of course required.
Light Armor with Armor Spikes provides you a good regular attack + grapple attack.
Bite Attack + Rage + Power Attack + Spiked Armor + Grapple Monster + Spiked Gauntlets can be a very fun combination. Run up to something grapple it and then start whaling on it.
The best thing about this is because you will be grappling most of the time your relatively bad AC isn't as much of an issue.
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The best thing about this is because you will be grappling most of the time your relatively bad AC isn't as much of an issue.
Yeah. I dont see her grappling alot though from what she described. striking and tripping maybe.
It's a home game, so some homebrew stuff will be allowed. I think between the fighter options mentioned here, and the Unarmed and Unarmored fighter archetypes here, and the Versatile Training (V1), she'll be good to go.
I greatly appreciate the build input, and the advice on building the archetypes and feats.
With luck, some of you will get use out of some of this stuff too. :)
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The cestus, a martial weapon which can be found here, can deal either piercing or bludgeoning damage.
It's also the "boxing glove" of Pathfinder and would leave her claws open as an option.
Yeah. I dont see her grappling alot though from what she described. striking and tripping maybe.
You may also want to look at the disarming chain. Even if all she does is disarm someone and toss the weapon behind her, she will have seriously inconvenienced whom ever she is fighting.
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She wants to play a big unarmed demonic thing that rips people apart with claws - why not just have her play and level as a monster? :P
Otherwise, unarmed brawler barbarian type sounds like what you want.
Nah, if that was what she wanted I would have set something up like what you suggested. She wants to play a kickboxer with a bit of demonic heritage, but doesnt want to do the full demon thing, and isn't great at tracking abilities. I looked for a Ki-less monk variant first.