Okay, I'm aware the Cavalier specifically says Riding Dog or Pony... or other with GM consent. I'm also fairly certain the GM consent option is "null & void" in PFS. So, to the point...
1. Would it be viable to start as a Druid with a Stegosaurus and at 2nd level start taking levels of Cavalier?
2. The Animal Companion & Mount features should stack with any existing Animal Companions, right?
#2: I would agree with your interpretation, but you might get some table variation on the issue.
|
Here is my interpretation for what it's worth.
Both the Cavalier and Paladin Mount features state that they are treated as Druid Animal Companions. Druid Animal Companions stack with other classes that grant animal companions. Ergo, they stack AS LONG AS they are allowed as mounts per the class restrictions. If you had a wolf, it would stack. Stegosaurus? Nope.
Oops, should've checked the text before posting... small character options are Pony or Wolf (Boar & Dog being 4th level options). Regardless, the question was more focused on OTHER via DRUID. :)
I could see the 'class restriction' train-of-thought being a problem, which was my main reason for posting. A straight Druid geared towards Mounted Combat is viable on it's own, stegosaurus or otherwise, just thought it might be neat to Cavalier it up once the Druid opens the access.
|
Here is my interpretation for what it's worth.
Both the Cavalier and Paladin Mount features state that they are treated as Druid Animal Companions. Druid Animal Companions stack with other classes that grant animal companions. Ergo, they stack AS LONG AS they are allowed as mounts per the class restrictions. If you had a wolf, it would stack. Stegosaurus? Nope.
In my home game, I would allow it. Heck, I would just allow the Cavalier to take the stego in the first place. However, I believe that Todd is correct. Since the stego is not an approved mount (for the Cav), you would not get to stack the levels. my 2cp
I say it stacks as long as the pet is on both lists. If it is not on one list, then it does not stack.
|
|
Withholding person judgement of the rule to notice that this seems like a somewhat divided topic. If you cant get a designer or someone from Paizo to officially declare for you, id stat out the character for both a steg and a regular obviously-legal mount. For the DMs who allow you to use the steg, youve got it ready. If they dont allow it, then youve got the other animal ready.
If someone does give an official answer on this falling on your side, personally, Id print it out and carry with my character sheet, for those GMs who would rule against it and might not believe it to be legal.
Also, in my RotR homegame, Ive got a player who's a halfling cavalier riding on a t-rex. ;)
Apparently my home computer is set to a different default alias, I am also Roscoe, didn't notice that when I posted.
If you cant get a designer or someone from Paizo to officially declare for you, id stat out the character for both a steg and a regular obviously-legal mount. For the DMs who allow you to use the steg, youve got it ready. If they dont allow it, then youve got the other animal ready.
I was thinking about doing that, but not sure if I really want to go through and put my friends through the companion debate at every table we sit at come convention time. At home we play on-going APs typically, not society play, this wouldn't be an issue and as someone else said it would likely be doable as a straight Cavalier.
If someone does give an official answer on this falling on your side, personally, Id print it out and carry with my character sheet, for those GMs who would rule against it and might not believe it to be legal.
You can bet on that! :)
I don't know what the correct answer is, but a halfling riding a stegosaurus is so full of win that I'd allow it.
Heck, I'm tempted to have the halflings in my campaign be based around riding stegosauri.
I know, right?! Like I said above, I may still do it as a pure Druid, nothing wrong with having buffs and healing for said Stegosaurus.
|
I am unsure of what would/wouldn't stack in the listing of the OP.
Lets say the Halfling is a rogue at first level. Next it's Druid at 2nd level and they take dinosaur as their AC. Add in a couple other levels of rouge at 3 and 4. At 5th level you take Cavalier. You also take the Boon Companion feat from Seeker of Secrets. This allows your little dinosaur to be a bit badass-er.
The benefits from cavalier to the mount, especially if only taken for one level are very minor. Ride Mount (no armor penalty on Ride checks) and AC Link (which isn't more or less given from the druid).
Thus, at 5th level the character would be Rogue 3, Druid 1 and Cavalier 1. Taking out the rogue and making it a fighter would be more beneficial and utilize more of the benefits from the cavalier aspect. In this, you're basically only taking the Druid level so that you can attain a companion that is better than that offered by the cavalier class.
Thus, even in PFS play I don't see how the benefits don't or wouldn't stack.
I also thought that if you took Druid first and the AC was 'mountable' by a small character you could ride it. Taking Cavalier just gave bonuses. So for me, I would have to see a specific "No" from someone official to say that it doesn't work that way.
I think that most small characters should take a level of druid just to get a riding animal. Especially since after about 4th level generic riding dogs can no longer stay in a battle at higher level tiers.
Theocrat Issak
Your Rogue 3, Druid 1 and Cavalier 1, animal companion levels would not stack. He could take a level 1 animal companion for caviler however. But as his druid "mount" is not one a caviler can have, the levels would not stack.
If he took the boon he would end up as a 4th level pc with a 4th level Animal companion{the druid one} and a level 1 animal companion{ the caviler mount}.
You would take the ACP with the level 4 druid mount, but not your level 1 caviler mount. Kinda a useless dip, unless ya want challenge and tactician.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
|
I've seen a number of Pathfinder Society players get very discouraged at their choice of the Cavalier class when they wanted to focus on mounted combat. Once they realize how little use they are getting with their mount, they either stop playing PFS altogether or play a different character class.
Since Josh Frost didn't allow any other mounts for Cavaliers, I encouraged players of mounted combat-focused-cavaliers to consider a level in druid in order to open up the choices for animal companions siting that "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."
Predictably, more Mounted Combat-focused-Cavaliers have surfaced with druid animal companion mounts provided "the creature is one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount."
If I was wrong in my interpretation of the rules, I suspect we won't see many Mounted Combat-focused-Cavaliers anymore. I suspect we will start seeing fighter/summoners and fighter/druids to fill the mounted combat focused role in Pathfinder Society.
While the levels do stack, the mount must be allowed by both classes.They do not have dinosaurs on the list, or bears or lions. You can not stack what you do not have. The caviler spells out very clearly what mounts they have as Animal companions and it works as a druid {with those animals only}.
As those animals also on the druid list would stack. That is how I read it.
|
The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A druid may begin play with any of the animals listed in the Animal Companions section beginning on page 51. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures.
Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion’s Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
So, since both classes give an animal companion, the Druid version explicitly says that the levels stack. So, the levels stack. At least as far as level for the Druid's companion. And, if it is ridable, I wouldn't see why the Cavalier couldn't choose to have it server as her Mount.
Someone might want to use their search-fu to link Josh's post, but I was under the impression that a pure Cavalier was limited to the few mounts explicitly called out in the APG, but that a multi-class Cavalier shouldn't be as limited.
Multi-classing should increase your flexibility, that is why you multi-class to begin with. Multi-classing already includes more than enough innate penalties, why add extra?
|
I've seen a number of Pathfinder Society players get very discouraged at their choice of the Cavalier class when they wanted to focus on mounted combat. Once they realize how little use they are getting with their mount, they either stop playing PFS altogether or play a different character class.
Really? I've got a halfing cavalier and he has a great time charging down corridors on his wolf. He's a terror with a charge lane and a wall the rest of the time.
What I find befuddling is why you are biased against traditional mounts. They seem perfectly fine to me.
Mulitclassing (especially just dips) is in fact strongly discouraged in Pathfinder, though I'd agree that an Animal Companion would stack IF the companion was legal for both classes.
It seems poor form to be a druid and not really be a druid if you know what I mean.
And yes I can totally see awesome characters who ride exotic mounts (just the image of riding an Elk for example seems cool) but I don't think those characters are cavaliers.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
|
Really? I've got a halfing cavalier and he has a great time charging down corridors on his wolf. He's a terror with a charge lane and a wall the rest of the time.
What I find befuddling is why you are biased against traditional mounts. They seem perfectly fine to me.
I suspect the players of mounted charge focused cavaliers are getting discouraged when they realize how hard it is to consistently pull off a legal mounted charge at low level.
So many things can foil their attempts: no straight line to closest space from which to attack the target, allies in the way, difficult terrain, poor visibility, 10' start, conditions (Blinded, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Nauseated).However, higher level cavaliers have access to feats and magic items that can overcome many of these hindrances.
|
|
Hi
Interesting thread. In Eberron campaign book (3.5) there were halflings who rode dinosaurs, but if the OP was looking for an awesome mount - why not just use the Summoner class?
(As an aside):
Halfling Dragonrider (that's right, Dragons)!
Take medium quadraped, add wings & riding mount abilities for 3 points. You've got a creature that looks like a Dragon, flies like a Dragon, with a nasty bite. At 1st level!
Later, just add Wing Buffet, Claw & Tail Swipe attackes, Breath Weapon, etc.
Mine takes the free weapon thingy Trait at first level, for a M/W Halfling Sling Staff, so he can do ranged attacks whilst flying.
Just a thought......
Paul H
|
|
I would say, personally, that a cavalier/nothing only gets the cavalier mounts. Cavalier/druid gets access to all druid companions, and so long as it is willing and able, possible mounts.
The issue is that if I started as a druid with a dinosaur who I used for mounted combat then multiclassed into cavalier I'd have to have a compleately different mount for purposes of my cavalier abilities. That's pretty lame.
While exotic mounts aren't the only worthwhile mounts, they're fun. I particularly loved the Talentia Plains in Eberron wor all the flavor they dragged in. PFS should be no different. If a high enough level cavalier wants to go charging into combat on his rhino (Or giant Rhinoceras lizard, Avatar the Last Airbender style) he otta be allowed.
I have a Rogue in Kingmaker, soon to be Cavalier that will be riding an Axebeak from the Bonus Bestiary, I'm looking forward to it quite a bit. (Rogue4/Cavalier with Boon Companion) Something of a hommage to the Joust videogame (without the flying), but it's a home run campaign, not PFS.
The reason I asked the initial question was because of a convention (mepacon) coming up in the begining of April and I haven't played PFS since GenCon08. I was looking to play something entertaining, but likely not much of a future, since we don't regularly play PFS. Like I said above I'll probably just be a Druid with a stegosaurus and call it good.
----------------------------
@PaulH - Someone else in our group is considering Summoner, I don't want to step on their toes and the few concepts I have for a Summoner aren't mounted despite how cool that could be. Also, an eidolon can't fly at 1st level, the evolution has a level restriction. No book currently availble, but I believe it's 6th level.
|
|
there is always the option to play with horse stats... but then explain to everyone that the mount is actually a stegosaurus. our group often uses stats for one companion while explaining what they look like to be something entirely different.
i ran a druid once, i wanted him to have a dire tiger at later levels who at early levels was just a kitten the two would grow up together. i think i went through about 3 different actual creature stat blocks (wolf,leapord dire tiger or something along those lines) but just explained that what was actually going on was a dire kitten growing into a dire tiger.
|
I played in a game at the Mace convention in North Carolina last fall with Steve miller. I think we all had allot of fun.
I think he had a halfing cavalier /druid character who was riding around on a bat, with a lance. I had a gnome, called Fizzabang the Fabulous, who had a couple levels of rogue, and levels of alchemist. My character threw bombs, and he dropped them on himself (that’s why he needed the evasion).
I don’t remember the exact scenario, but I do think this little combination was very effective and fun. Also I don’t think it upset the “game balance”. I don’t think that my character was over shadowed. He might of tried to hide in shadows, but I don’t think he was overshadowed by the halfing cavalier charging about with his lance on a bat.
Anyways we all had fun. I had fun with Fizzabang blowing things up. I think Steve had fun with his character charging about. I’m not sure what the rules say specifically, but the last thing I would want to see is for the rules to stifle someone’s creative and interesting idea for a character.
|
|
While there have been some good options given here, and everything has been kept civil, I would really appreciate an official answer from someone from Paizo who is allowed to make such a decision...(if your reading this anyway)
I havent seen a single Cavalier PFS character so far, probably because people assume you have to take one of the ones listed specifically in the Cavalier definition. Those are fine, but can be kinda boring if everyone who is doing one of those is using the same pair of mounts.
While there have been some good options given here, and everything has been kept civil, I would really appreciate an official answer from someone from Paizo who is allowed to make such a decision...(if your reading this anyway)
I havent seen a single Cavalier PFS character so far, probably because people assume you have to take one of the ones listed specifically in the Cavalier definition. Those are fine, but can be kinda boring if everyone who is doing one of those is using the same pair of mounts.
As far as I can remember reading, this post by Joshua, when he was still in charge, is the official ruling:
The cavalier's mounts are restricted as noted in the class description and I don't intend, at least until the APG is released in August, to expand that list. Keep in mind that all APG characters will need to be rebuilt using the APG rules in August--should the cavalier list expand in the final, you'll be able to change it up there.
So basically the limited choice as published in the APG is the only list the cavalier gets to choose from until the day another book expands it, perhaps in Ultimate Combat?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
So basically the limited choice as published in the APG is the only list the cavalier gets to choose from until the day another book expands it, perhaps in Ultimate Combat?
I'd agree with this. I don't believe it would stack (Druid/Cav) if the animal isn't on both lists.
Are their any features of Cav that require using the Mount (Ex) class feature to provide e mount? Can't you just be a 1st level Druid, take Boon Companion (it works on Druids?) and have a 5th level Mount? Not good in a 12th level PFS game, but hey.
Can't you just be a 1st level Druid, take Boon Companion (it works on Druids?) and have a 5th level Mount?
Boon Companion and it's 3.5 predecessor, Natural Bond, only provide a benefit up to your character level, but not exceeding it. Boon Companion is up to 4 levels, Natural Bond was only up to 3.
The benefit of the feat is primarily for multiclass druids, paladins or cavaliers and rangers who want to remove the -3 restriction. Boon Companion also works on Familiars, but not on Eidolons as written.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Can't you just be a 1st level Druid, take Boon Companion (it works on Druids?) and have a 5th level Mount?Boon Companion and it's 3.5 predecessor, Natural Bond, only provide a benefit up to your character level, but not exceeding it.
Since they would be a 1st level Druid, and several levels of Cavalier, then did you answer my question? I'm not sure since you didn't address my question.
Since they would be a 1st level Druid, and several levels of Cavalier, then did you answer my question? I'm not sure since you didn't address my question.Can't you just be a 1st level Druid, take Boon Companion (it works on Druids?) and have a 5th level Mount?Boon Companion and it's 3.5 predecessor, Natural Bond, only provide a benefit up to your character level, but not exceeding it.
Sorry didn't quite understand what you were saying. You could do that, but you would then have 2 animals, both somewhat ineffective. A 5th level companion would still be useful for approximately 2-3 levels, then it's just something you have to mourn and replace every session. The same goes for a 1st level cavalier mount on a 6th level character, but a thousand times worse.
|
|
Can't you just be a 1st level Druid, take Boon Companion (it works on Druids?) and have a 5th level Mount?Boon Companion and it's 3.5 predecessor, Natural Bond, only provide a benefit up to your character level, but not exceeding it. Boon Companion is up to 4 levels, Natural Bond was only up to 3.
The benefit of the feat is primarily for multiclass druids, paladins or cavaliers and rangers who want to remove the -3 restriction. Boon Companion also works on Familiars, but not on Eidolons as written.
Well... due to the horribly bad wording of Boon Companion, this is not strictly true.
Boon CompanionP
Source Seekers of Secrets 16Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
The operative phrase, "to a maximum bonus" indicate that a 1st level druid would gain a 1 level bonus (thereby having an animal companion as if 2nd level). A 2nd level druid would gain a 2 level bonus (thereby having an animal companion as if 3rd level). According to the actual wording of the feat, a druid (or other character) of 4th level or higher would gain a 4 level bonus. There is no wording that restricts the effective druid level to character level.
That said - I do not take any bonus that would gain me an effective druid level higher than my character level for any of my characters for whom I have taken boon companion. I do this for the simple reason that while the feat is horribly worded, and has yet to see any errata, most DM's generally view the feat as if it were the 3.5 version, which did carry that restriction. There's some old thread here on the boards where one of the developers said that they viewed it as that as well, regardless of the actual wording.
A much better wording of the feat would be:
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your effective level in the appropriate class (druid in the case of animal companion, or wizard in the case of familiar) were four levels higher, to a maximum effective level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Yikes! Extremely poorly written. Usually when I see a feat similar to something I use to use from 3.5e, barring vastly different text, I just assume it works identical to the original. No DM I play under would allow that RAW, essentially allowing an 8th level companion in a 4th level party... nah uh, not even going THERE! LOL
|
|
Stuff
Not specifically a PFS issue, but I think that it is clear that the RAI was that the animal companion's level is capped by your character level. Anything else, seems broken.
but you would then have 2 animals, both somewhat ineffective
Not sure if they would be considered ineffective, but the PFS guidelines do state that no matter how many companions you have, only one can be designated as a combatant for a given mod. So if you were a Druid-4/cavalier-4 with Boon Companion twice, you would have to designate which one would be actively participating in the mod. Although, depending on the environment of the mod, this could help alleviate the problem of having an ineffective mount. Select two different types of creatures and use the one that is more applicable. You would be an 8th level character with two, eighth level companions.
|
|
StuffNot specifically a PFS issue, but I think that it is clear that the RAI was that the animal companion's level is capped by your character level. Anything else, seems broken.
but you would then have 2 animals, both somewhat ineffectiveNot sure if they would be considered ineffective, but the PFS guidelines do state that no matter how many companions you have, only one can be designated as a combatant for a given mod. So if you were a Druid-4/cavalier-4 with Boon Companion twice, you would have to designate which one would be actively participating in the mod. Although, depending on the environment of the mod, this could help alleviate the problem of having an ineffective mount. Select two different types of creatures and use the one that is more applicable. You would be an 8th level character with two, eighth level companions.
From the feat itself, there's no way to divine intent. I agree that as written, the feat is broken. Which is why I refer to it as horribly worded. And why I put forth my own interpretation of what I felt would be a better writing of the feat, if that is the intent. As the feat has never received errata, of inclusion in a FAQ, it's difficult to discern exactly what the intent was.
I'm not certain that it's possible to take Boon Companion twice. Nothing in the feat description states that it may be taken twice, and the general rule is that you may only take a feat once. Hmm. Looking at the PRD, I don't see any rule stating that you cannot take a feat twice. <shaking head..., thinking about what doubly taken feats would be broken. Skill focus? Weapon Focus? Boon companion as a Druid1/Something8?>
|
|
Not specifically a PFS issue, but I think that it is clear that the RAI was that the animal companion's level is capped by your character level. Anything else, seems broken.From the feat itself, there's no way to divine intent. I agree that as written, the feat is broken. Which is why I refer to it as horribly worded. And why I put forth my own interpretation of what I felt would be a better writing of the feat, if that is the intent. As the feat has never received errata, of inclusion in a FAQ, it's difficult to discern exactly what the intent was.
Please ref this conversation on the Paizo forums.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/boonCompanionDruid&page=1&source=search#0
[sorry - seems this doesn't work. do a search for 'Boon Companion, druid' & look for Russ Taylor's post. Seems he's the author of the Boon Companion feat]
About a quarter of the way down the page, the author of the Boon Companion feat chimes in with the following comment...
Here's the authority: it caps at your character level.
So a 6th level druid / 2nd level bard can have an 8th level companion.
Wrote the feat, sorry about the strange wording.
|
|
I'm not certain that it's possible to take Boon Companion twice. Nothing in the feat description states that it may be taken twice, and the general rule is that you may only take a feat once. Hmm. Looking at the PRD, I don't see any rule stating that you cannot take a feat twice. <shaking head..., thinking about what doubly taken feats would be broken. Skill focus? Weapon Focus? Boon companion as a Druid1/Something8?>
Most (all?) feats that can be taken more than once, say so in the text, but have a caveat that you have to apply it to a different "recipient." I tend to believe that the second part is just clarifying so there is no stacking. With that logic, double-selecting the feat and applying it to different companions seems to be inline with existing cannon.
|
|
Not specifically a PFS issue, but I think that it is clear that the RAI was that the animal companion's level is capped by your character level. Anything else, seems broken.From the feat itself, there's no way to divine intent. I agree that as written, the feat is broken. Which is why I refer to it as horribly worded. And why I put forth my own interpretation of what I felt would be a better writing of the feat, if that is the intent. As the feat has never received errata, of inclusion in a FAQ, it's difficult to discern exactly what the intent was.
Please ref this conversation on the Paizo forums.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/boonCompanionDruid&page=1&source=search#0
[sorry - seems this doesn't work. do a search for 'Boon Companion, druid' & look for Russ Taylor's post. Seems he's the author of the Boon Companion feat]
About a quarter of the way down the page, the author of the Boon Companion feat chimes in with the following comment...
Here's the authority: it caps at your character level.
So a 6th level druid / 2nd level bard can have an 8th level companion.
Wrote the feat, sorry about the strange wording.
[noticing that you left out his smug wording about how we are all supposed to know exactly what he meant, however he might have worded it...]
Yes, I agree with you. If one is willing to wade through thousands of random messageboard posts, one might actually find a short 23 word clarification of the rule buried somewhere by the original author of the feat.
However, if one actually looks at the published material, one has only the actual words used to determine intent.
[hangs head in chastisement, and walks penitently away...]
The Boon Companion feat may not be worded the best, but it is still easy enough to figure out what it means:
The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
I think the part that can be confusing is that it refers to both class levels and character levels. The feat is useless for single-class druids, as their class level and character level are the same, but it is a great feat for multi-class druids so long as your total character level is never more than four higher than your class level as a druid. The animal companion can also never be a higher level than your total character level. Here are some examples using a class that does not get an animal companion of it's own, which would confuse things more:
druid 1/no other class = 1st level animal companion because class level and character level are the same and thus the bonus is +0
druid 1/fighter 1 = 2nd level animal companion because difference between class level and character level is 1, giving a bonus of +1
druid 1/fighter 4 = 5th level animal companion because difference between class level and character level is 4, same as the max bonus of +4
druid 1/fighter 6 = also 5th level animal companion even though difference is 6 because of max bonus of +4 levels provided by feat