Recently in one of our games an enemy NPC was prone. One of the players hit the enemy NPC with a tanglefoot bag.
So the enemy was prone and stuck to the ground.
The question the GM had was whether the NPC could stand from prone?
Under Tanglefoot it says that the target can't move... so that seems simple enough, but normally the idea of movement in the rules is referring to "moving from one square to another."
An example would be that, as far as I can ever recall, no one has ever challenged someone for taking a move action while stuck with a tanglefoot bag, such as pulling out a solvent to unstuck themselves.
With no clear answer available in the text, thematically it seems like the NPC ought to have been glued prone to the floor and we ran with that, but might as well toss it out to the community to see what others thought.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I strongly suspect getting up from prone, even whilst entangled, is fine.
Additionally, not being able to stand or move at all would be the pinned condition. I don't think there's a ruling for entangling something "enough" with additional bags so that it is "pinned", but maybe your group can rule something that way.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gruuuu wrote: Additionally, not being able to stand or move at all would be the pinned condition. I don't think there's a ruling for entangling something "enough" with additional bags so that it is "pinned", but maybe your group can rule something that way. Not being able to move "at all" generally implies the helpless condition, though I can see pinned being a lesser evil granted by a lenient GM.
I vote glued!!! he totally can't move =D no standing for him.
Gruuuu wrote: Additionally, not being able to stand or move at all would be the pinned condition. I don't think there's a ruling for entangling something "enough" with additional bags so that it is "pinned", but maybe your group can rule something that way. Well, it wasn't really an issue of not being able to perform any move actions, just standing from prone.
I guess the question we had was:
Is standing from prone considered not only a move action, but also considered movement? From what we read, both of those terms have very specific meanings in the rules.
I don't think it would be much of an issue for our group, save that it is PFS, and thus rulings are aspiring to be as RAWish and computer program/robot-like as possible.
Ravingdork wrote: I strongly suspect getting up from prone, even whilst entangled, is fine. Agreed.
Would you let someone hit by a tanglefoot bag drop prone from a standing position? If so, then let them stand up using the same reasoning.
The tanglefoot bag is a bunch of sticky goo that hardens. I have no problem visualizing that. If you're prone, then your abdomen and shoulders are resting on the ground.
The tanglefoot bag has stuck your body to the ground, not just your feet. So, by common sense, no, you're glued to the ground until you can get free of the hardened gunk.
By game terms, you could probably rise from prone. But I'm an unapologetic simulationist, and that doesn't make sense to me.
I ought to have posted this before:
Pathfinder PRD wrote: A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.
With the ambiguous rule in bold. So a tanglefoot bag does put the entangled condition on the target, but it has an effect that goes beyond the entangled condition, which is what we were wondering about the other night.
Can't move away from that square, since his feet are stuck.
I can imagine it making more sense if his whole body was stuck, but that would make it a bit powerful, no?
Perhaps just give the NPC a -2 on his reflex, but getting up is still a *move-equivalent action*, not moving...
My 2 cents.
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