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Hello all, my DM from the PFS Godsmouth Heresy event asked if I could submit my build to you all for perusal and see if I am legit.
Frankly, my lvl 1 Summoner and his eidolon pretty much went right through the adventure, mowing down CR1 challenges like it was nothing, and 1 shoting the bad guys. DM quit saying "Roll to hit" and was saying "Roll to kill".
If the build is legit, then he and I both think it might be a bit broken. Please look at it and tell us what you think, and if you agree that its a bit silly, maybe we should FAQ this thread to let the developers look at it.
Summoner: lvl 1, Half Elf
STR 7
DEX 16
STA 16 (+2 Half elf racial)
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 15
AC 17
HP 11
Replaced "adaptability" with "Ancestral Arms from the APG (took Heavy Repeating Xbow)
Replaced "multitalented with "Arcane Training" from APG.
took favored class bonus as 1/4 evo pool for eidolon
Traits: undead slayer (pharasma worshipping trait) and reactionary
Feat: Point Blank Shot
Wearing chain shirt, carrying MW Heavy Repeating Xbow
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Eidolon: Bipedal (slam variant)
Free evolutions: Arms, Legs, Slam
Chosen Evolutions: Reach, Improved Damage:Slam
STR 16
DEX 12
STA 13
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 11 ( none of that is monkeyed with, straight outta the rules)
Feat: Power Attack
Slam (Ex): An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
So, the problem is this...according to the info I posted above, my Eidolon should be doing 2d6 + 7 on a full power attack. Hero Labs agrees with this. Its the only attack that the Eidolon gets, and it hits for a ton of bricks when it does.
The Eidolon was pretty much killing everything it hit in 1 shot. With a +3 to hit even when power attacking, if the summoner gave it "guidance" it would still hit with +4, and in a 1st lvl encounter, as long as I roll over a 8 or 9 on the d20, its pretty much going to hit, which at minimum damage is going to do at least 9 damage, which kills EVERYTHING it hits. I did some horrendous damage, rolling 2d6 and getting 7-10 several times, for anywhere from 14-17 damage.
TL:DR Eidolon/Summoner build at first level with Slam/Power Attack combo is game breaking to CR1 encounters....agree/disagree??
****EDIT***
changed 2d8 back to 2d6. bad typo.
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I disagree. A raging barbarian with a "great" weapon and power attack can easily do the same amount of damage, and likely with a higher attack bonus. Granted you are essentially playing two characters for one, the Eidolon is not out of hand. From you example, and your own description, you could have been killed if the opponent hadn't missed badly. You were also fortunate to make the save or suck. Low-level mods seem to be much more fickle (dependent on the dice randomness), so I tend not to evaluate a build based on the first couple of levels. However, if your build continues to scale up faster than the opponents through low-mid to mid levels, then maybe it can become a problem. If you feel it is over-powered and will make the game less fun, then gimp him. My barbarian was in a similar situation, so I made him afraid of the dark. Made for some really enjoyable role-playing opportunities.
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carrying MW Heavy Repeating Xbow
Not sure how your level 1 character got a 700 gp weapon...
Additionally I'm not sure how/why you are quoting Improved Natural Attack. You don't have it or qualify for it.
As far as I can tell from using HL you should get Melee: Slam +3 (2d6+7) when using power attack. Which is still going to average 11 hp / hit and quite a lot.
However, I just did a BigDumbFighter build who's power attacking Melee: Greatsword +4 (2d6+9) so it's not really beyond the pale or anything.
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carrying MW Heavy Repeating XbowNot sure how your level 1 character got a 700 gp weapon...
Additionally I'm not sure how/why you are quoting Improved Natural Attack. You don't have it or qualify for it.
As far as I can tell from using HL you should get Melee: Slam +3 (2d6+7) when using power attack. Which is still going to average 11 hp / hit and quite a lot.
However, I just did a BigDumbFighter build who's power attacking Melee: Greatsword +4 (2d6+9) so it's not really beyond the pale or anything.
I am carrying the MW Heavy Repeating Xbow b/c I have played this character before 1 time, ran thru an AP with a bunch of lvl 3 and 4 guys, and managed to survive. I got 1000 gold from that adventure, so with it I bought the weapon. I should have clarified that.
I quoted the Improved Natural Attack simply to illustrate the dice progression. 1d8 to 2d6 is a pretty big jump, and if it were a weapon on a medium creature the progression would be 1d8 to 1d10. Far far less of a jump.
I just wanted to show what the dice progression was.
Thank you for your input.
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1d8 to 2d6 is a pretty big jump, and if it were a weapon on a medium creature the progression would be 1d8 to 1d10. Far far less of a jump.
I just wanted to show what the dice progression was.
I was going to point out that you didn't get a free weapon with that trait, but you already posted where you got that.
As to the part I've quoted, a medium 1d8 weapon made large is also 2d6, not 1d10. You can see the table on pg 145 of the CRB.
All in all, a good build I think. What I'd like to know is, what's he (the Eidolon) look like. :) And I'd say a 18 str barb with a greatsword & power attack is much worse than your eidolon.
Seems to be another glass cannon build - if I calculated correctly it has AC of 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural) and 1d10+1 hp. It probably would not fare so great against larger number of lower CR opponents who would be able to reach it and attack while sacrificing some of their numbers to AoO.
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@ Phneri : Eidolon did get 1 shotted by the BBEG in Godsmouth. Basically, that monster is a CR3 monster, and when it DID hit the Eidolon which has a lousy 13AC, my eidolon dropped. Basically in PFS, the Eidolon is considered an animal companion and as such it only has 1/2 HD, so even tho a normal time Eidolon would get d10+ Con, mine only has 5 + Con or 6 HP total.
@Drejk Its glass cannon at lvl 1, as I go up in lvls and it gets more HP and more Evo points, I'll give it more CON and Diehard feat. By higher levels it will be pretty viable I think.
"Eidolon: Bipedal (slam variant)
Free evolutions: Arms, Legs, Slam"
Where is this from? It is certainly not in the APG.
Sounds house rules.
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"Eidolon: Bipedal (slam variant)
Free evolutions: Arms, Legs, Slam"
Where is this from? It is certainly not in the APG.
I believe that is how Hero Labs labels it and it's legal.
Slam (Ex): An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws
from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
So slam replaces claws - 1 point, reach - 1 point, improved damage 1 point.
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Heavy Repeating Crossbow - 12 lbs.
Chain Shirt - 25 lbsOther gear???
Total 36 lbs+
You are well into the Medium load range, I assume you were plodding along at 20'/ round and taking the other penalties for medium load?
The "other penalties" for medium encumbrance consist of a slower run speed X4, a max dex of +3 (dex 16 only gets +3), and an armor check penalty of -3.
Monster carries most of my other gear in a backpack. During adventuring all I usually have on is the MW HRC and armor, and 1 reload.
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DM thought it was a bit too game breaking. This character, with the help of the summoner, pretty much solo'd the adventure, with occasional help from some of the other players in cases where I had low initiative or we were at a choke point where I could not get to the enemy.
I don't think its that bad, but with the Eidolon and the summoner both, this will usually out damage even a fully optimized fighter/barb/pally build.
You don't get to refunded for the base claws. None of the base evolutions can be cashed in for credit against other evolutions.
You're getting hung up on semantics of how he wrote it.
Do the math.
Level 1 Eidelon.
Evo pool : 3
Slam 1pt
Imp Dmg Slam 1pt
Reach 1pt
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You don't get to refunded for the base claws. None of the base evolutions can be cashed in for credit against other evolutions.You're getting hung up on semantics of how he wrote it.
Do the math.
Level 1 Eidelon.
Evo pool : 3
Slam 1pt
Imp Dmg Slam 1pt
Reach 1pt
I reread it and fixed my above post.
Not sure why they call it that, goofy.
Edit: Not saying the OP is goofy, just the way hero-labs formats it is confusing.
You don't get to refunded for the base claws. None of the base evolutions can be cashed in for credit against other evolutions.You're getting hung up on semantics of how he wrote it.
Do the math.
Level 1 Eidelon.
Evo pool : 3
Slam 1pt
Imp Dmg Slam 1pt
Reach 1ptI reread it and fixed my above post.
Not sure why they call it that, goofy.
The vagaries of people who program but don't actually play the system. So you get Bob's version of what Alice told him that Jim said as he was reading the book. :)
The eidelon's not out of line on waht you'd get for maximizing any melee type. He's a glass cannon, yes. It's as if you took a fighter, spent all his money at first level on offensive items and bought him no armor. Then you spent all his feats on damage feats (which is what you did).
Doesn't make him broken. Makes him very powerful at 1st level, just like a fighter who's geared for damage and not defense (bough +1 sword and standard leather armor for example) and by 3rd level he's going to be going 'splut' very very often. By 3rd level, you'll be encountering little squads of goblins and such, or swarms. And when you do that, he'll make goblin A go splut, and then goblin B to G will kill him in one round. And if you resummon him, he'll last one more round and use up a spell. That's assuming the goblin brigade doesn't splut the summoner for bringing him back.
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So my comments on the module and how you killed it relative to balance VERY SPOILER HEAVY if you are going to play this mod stay out.
So I've GMed Godsmouth once and played in it once and watched it played once.
There are two encounters that are really nasty for a 1st level party but otherwise it's not that deadly or nasty. It is very much a dungeon crawl and there are lots of things with DR/ slashing or DR/ bludgeoning.
There is really only one really nasty encounter, and you mentioned it. Essentially you rolled well on your will save and the GM fumbled twice on his attacks, either of which would have put your eidolon out of the fight. How badly the groups get torn up in this encounter depends largely on how many players make their will save against the necrophidous.
Since the creature has DR/ bludgeoning you lucked out with having the slam attack, a perfect match. Your crossbow likely didn't help too much though since it's average damage would have been 2-3 points damage after DR. If it had been a large zombie you'd have been kind of a lot less happy.
Finally, you also got lucky because the GM fumbled against you twice. That snake creature would have easily one shotted your eidolon.
Essentially, you kicked butt because the dice gods were happy with you which is always a great feeling. If the dice hadn't liked you so much it could easily have gone otherwise if you'd failed a save or the GM hadn't missed twice.
When I GMed it I had a TPK because the necrophidous critted and paralysed the parties only character of consistently bashing through the necrophidouses DR. Sometimes the dice gods don't like you :(
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Yes, summoners and their eidolon are poorly balanced. Yes, an optimized fighter/barbarian/whatever will perform better but a mediocre eidolon will outperform any other mediocre frontline combatant. That's the way of it.
It's for that reason that I scrapped my summoner.
This is what I've seen too, if a group has a lot of new players or players who don't build fighters well the summoner looks amazingly good. Groups where the players are better at building characters they look decent but not that amazing. I don't even think it takes very much to make a fighter/ barbarian as effective as the eidolon.
What is frustrating is this makes them appealing to beginning players who wind up making tons of build mistakes on the eidolons. (Not referring to the OP here).
I'm not sure why this made you scrap the summoner, care to explain?
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Yes, summoners and their eidolon are poorly balanced. Yes, an optimized fighter/barbarian/whatever will perform better but a mediocre eidolon will outperform any other mediocre frontline combatant. That's the way of it.
It's for that reason that I scrapped my summoner.
This is what I've seen too, if a group has a lot of new players or players who don't build fighters well the summoner looks amazingly good. Groups where the players are better at building characters they look decent but not that amazing. I don't even think it takes very much to make a fighter/ barbarian as effective as the eidolon.
What is frustrating is this makes them appealing to beginning players who wind up making tons of build mistakes on the eidolons. (Not referring to the OP here).
I'm not sure why this made you scrap the summoner, care to explain?
+1
I'm tired of seeing summoners make build mistakes... I GM and had a run in with 2 different summoners. Inexperienced players just butcher this class.
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Exactly Mcarvin, which is why its in the APG.
In a PFS game, I think this build will be very good at secondary damage and support. Often we have a barbarian and a fighter, or a barbarian and a ranger, and usually at least one rogue. I like the big hit potential, as opposed to 57billion smaller attacks, although I recognize the DPR potential is much better on a quadruped eidolon.
Different strokes for different folks I guess, I like it.
Thanks everyone for looking at the build! :)
One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
As I tried to resolve in my other thread, there are issues with eidolon damage and size. This evolution is poorly worded: I read this as increasing the damage die, not applying the normal progression of the improved natural attack feat. So you'd be doing 1d10, not 2d6.